What if Superman were to reveal his identity to the world?

[Whirlysplat]

You mean antagonist, right? Anyway, if you say Metallo's generic, then Lex Luthor must also me generic. I mean, he's one of many criminal masterminds in comics. Being one of many doesn;'t automativally m,ake a character generic. What matters is how you use them as characters. There's nothing wrong with Metallo.

No I mean protagonist as the hero is usually the foil in Superhero fiction. The only role they have is to stop, the stories motivations are usually driven by the villian. Leading to the concept of the hero as the foil. In Superhero fiction stories are only as good as the villian. The protagonist whilst usually the hero in most forms of fiction is not in most comics. This is why Dr. Doom and Magneto can create such great stories. This is the basis of all my posts in this thread. In Superhero fiction the episodal plot is purely focussed on the villians actions, the rest of the plot where the hero is the protagonist is the ongoing Soap Opera/serial aspect.

The rest of your post is circular you feel Supes should be a superMAN whilst I feel supes is a SUPERman. Luthor or a more interesting character needs Supes as his antagonist.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

No. I feel he can be both. Superman is fully capable of having many differnet kinds of stories, both epic and otherwise. I also think your idea of the antagonist/protagonist thing in comics is pretty damn off base. The hero is, generally, the protagonist in the story, even in comics. The story is not "only as good as it's villain." And even if that were true, Metallo isn't a bad villain. How big a character's scope is does not mean how good a character they are.

 

[Whirlysplat]

No. I feel he can be both. Superman is fully capable of having many differnet kinds of stories, both epic and otherwise. I also think your idea of the antagonist/protagonist thing in comics is pretty damn off base. The hero is, generally, the protagonist in the story, even in comics. The story is not "only as good as it's villain." And even if that were true, Metallo isn't a bad villain. How big a character's scope is does not mean how good a character they are.

This is also where the problem lies the genres cliches are to tightly defined and defended by some fans. The stories you support and the type of situations characters like Metallo create are part of a worn-out formula which limit the broader possibilities and scope of an epic character like Supes, that's only my opinion of course.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

One only falls into those traps if they let themselves. Besides, I have always felt that it is not the situations by themselves that make a story interesting, but what the characters do in them. Neither Superman nor any of his supporting cast or rogues gallary need to be in epic stories to be interesting. All they need is to be the characters they are. And have a good writer.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Neither Superman nor any of his supporting cast or rogues gallary need to be in epic stories to be interesting. All they need is to be the characters they are. And have a good writer.

In this we will have to disagree because most writers regurgate the same time worn stuff with the same time worn cliches and conventions. This is an interesting essay here.

http://www.class.uidaho.edu/narrative/comics/superhero_narrative.htm

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

That's because those writers allow themselves to fall into those traps.

 

[Whirlysplat]

That's because those writers allow themselves to fall into those traps.

Thats what generic villians like Metallo lead to.

Taken from the above link in my previous post.

Sure the villains change, but only marginally. They all want the same thing—power. And all of the superheroes are obliged to fight anyone who hurts, steals, or threatens to compromise democracy. Every now and again we get a work that rises above the monthly mediocrity peddled, but innovation and compelling narratives are rare things in the market. It seemed like everyone was collecting comics in the mid-eighties (maybe that was because I was working in a comic store at the time) but the market eventually bottomed out. It didn’t happen because comic collecting was a passing fad. It happened because people couldn’t tell the difference from one X-men title to the next. I have spent a long time pondering why Superhero comics don’t work and I believe I can attribute it to three factors: the writers’ reading habits, the problems inherent in overly complex continuities, and expectations of the readership.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

Thats what generic villians like Metallo lead to.

But I have a question: How is Lex Luthor any less generic than Metallo? You say Metallo is generic because he's basically an enforcer type, and yet Lex Luthor, who is one of many criminal masterminds, is not generic. Explain that to me.

 

[Whirlysplat]

But I have a question: How is Lex Luthor any less generic than Metallo? You say Metallo is generic because he's basically an enforcer type, and yet Lex Luthor, who is one of many criminal masterminds, is not generic. Explain that to me.

The scope Lex operates on allows him to be less generic. Metallo is a physical threat and I use the term loosely. The plot unless you are going for a human interest angle revolves around Metallo and Supes throwing down no matter how much he is deconstructed. Lex is a mental threat and this means it is his motivations which drive numerous possible scenarios. He can even be portrayed as a human protecting humanity from an alien that no matter how benevolent is interferring with humanities progress, the deconstructionist possibilities are endless. This is why in the best comic book stories the hero is the foil. Look at the Sandman books in these the title character often is only the facilitator, neither protagonist or antagonist.

- Whirly

 

[Spike_x1]

In this we will have to disagree because most writers regurgate the same time worn stuff with the same time worn cliches and conventions. This is an interesting essay here.

http://www.class.uidaho.edu/narrative/comics/superhero_narrative.htm

- Whirly

That's where talented writers come into play. A writer with talent should be capable of coming onto a book with fresh ideas and innovative ways of telling a new and exciting story.

It's not written in stone that all writers can't do anything interesting with a certain character, this case being Metallo.

 

[The Question]

The scope Lex operates on allows him to be less generic. Metallo is a physical threat and I use the term loosely. The plot unless you are going for a human interst angle revolves around Metallo and Supes throwing down. Lex is a mental threat this means it is his motivations which drive numerous possible scenarios. He can even be portrayed as a human protecting humanity from an alien that no matter how benevolent is interferring with humanities progress, the deconstructionist possibilities are endless.

No, they're not. Lex is just as "generic" as Metallo. Yes, Metallo is primairily a physical threat. That does not make him a bad character at all, and it certainly doesn't make him a "generic" one. All it takes is a talanted writer to do the character justice. Besides, it's not like Metallo is some dumb brawler. When he wasn't portrayed as a shalow imitation of The Parasite, he's usually been written as the highly inteligent and well educated career criminal.

 

[Whirlysplat]

No, they're not. Lex is just as "generic" as Metallo. Yes, Metallo is primairily a physical threat. That does not make him a bad character at all, and it certainly doesn't make him a "generic" one. All it takes is a talanted writer to do the character justice.

No again you are being a little near sighted in my opinion, Masterminds are generic but Lex has one special characteristic when used in conjunction with Superman. That is for the most part he is just a man. A man with a genius but he is actually not Super, how many villians that face "gods" with a small g are just men. I don't think Thor or the Silver Surfer has an enemy who is just a man. It is Luthors humanity that makes him special.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

With the exception of some good bits of diologue, that isn't going to automatically make Lex a better character and make his better stories on it's own. You need good writers. Just as Metallo does.

 

[Whirlysplat]

With the exception of some good bits of diologue, that isn't going to automatically make Lex a better character and make his better stories on it's own. You need good writers. Just as Metallo does.

Shall we look at the possibilities for Metallo.

1) He's hired muscle

2) Revenge (for something)

3) Human interest (sympathy story)

Let's look at some possible takes on Lex already used

1) President Lex
2) Cloned Lex
3) Sympathy Cancer Lex
4) Power crazed Lex
5) Fu Man Chu/ James Bond style villian Lex

and then we have all the possible straight takes and the more interesting deconstructionist takes. Because witha mental based villian it is the motivation that matters not the slugfest.
This is why Lex is used in Kingdom Come and not Metallo as the main villian.

As I said it's about scope.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

It's not about scope. Also, when you talked about possibilities for Metallo, you listed possible motivations. When you listed possibilities for Lex, you mentioned things he could do or roles he could fill. Not the same.

 

[Spike_x1]

So no writer is ever going to be capable of giving Metallo any form of motivation other than revenge?

If it weren't for the fact that our modern writers are killing off and watering down Superman's villains left and right, I'd say that I'd like to believe that writers are more talented than you give them credit for. I want to believe that, but I honestly have to say that they're a huge letdown for me right now.

That is by no means agreeing with your point of view on storytelling. It's just that writers seem to share it, and are sadly limiting themselves and closing off doors to possible future stories.

 

[Whirlysplat]

So no writer is ever going to be capable of giving Metallo any form of motivation other than revenge?

If it weren't for the fact that our modern writers are killing off and watering down Superman's villains left and right, I'd say that I'd like to believe that writers are more talented than you give them credit for. I want to believe that, but I honestly have to say that they're a huge letdown for me right now.

That is by no means agreeing with your point of view on storytelling. It's just that writers seem to share it, and are sadly limiting themselves and closing off doors to possible future stories.

Perhaps you can tell me how you feel Metallo could be made into an intersting character, as I have offered scenarios and motivations for Lex.

It's not about scope. Also, when you talked about possibilities for Metallo, you listed possible motivations. When you listed possibilities for Lex, you mentioned things he could do or roles he could fill. Not the same.

Actually you need to reread my post I used the word possibility and gave roles for both here you go reposted to save you the trouble.

So no writer is ever going to be capable of giving Metallo any form of motivation other than revenge?

I gave two more

Shall we look at the possibilities for Metallo.

1) He's hired muscle (role)

2) Revenge (for something) possibility and role

3) Human interest (sympathy story) possibility

Let's look at some possible takes on Lex already used

1) President Lex (role)
2) Cloned Lex (role)
3) Sympathy Cancer Lex (role)
4) Power crazed Lex (role)
5) Fu Man Chu/ James Bond style villian Lex (role)


and then we have all the possible straight takes and the more interesting deconstructionist takes. Because witha mental based villian it is the motivation that matters not the slugfest.

Possible motivation for Lex here:

The scope Lex operates on allows him to be less generic. Metallo is a physical threat and I use the term loosely. The plot unless you are going for a human interest angle revolves around Metallo and Supes throwing down no matter how much he is deconstructed. Lex is a mental threat and this means it is his motivations which drive numerous possible scenarios. He can even be portrayed as a human protecting humanity from an alien that no matter how benevolent is interferring with humanities progress, the deconstructionist possibilities are endless. This is why in the best comic book stories the hero is the foil. Look at the Sandman books in these the title character often is only the facilitator, neither protagonist or antagonist.

- Whirly

lots of other spring to mind.




- Whirly

 

[The Question]

Actually you need to reread my post

Okay. I re-read your post. And, you still only listed motivations for Metallo and things Lex could do/roles Lex could fill for Lex.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Okay. I re-read your post. And, you still only listed motivations for Metallo and things Lex could do/roles Lex could fill for Lex.

because I'd already given at least one here.

The scope Lex operates on allows him to be less generic. Metallo is a physical threat and I use the term loosely. The plot unless you are going for a human interest angle revolves around Metallo and Supes throwing down no matter how much he is deconstructed. Lex is a mental threat and this means it is his motivations which drive numerous possible scenarios. He can even be portrayed as a human protecting humanity from an alien that no matter how benevolent is interferring with humanities progress, the deconstructionist possibilities are endless. This is why in the best comic book stories the hero is the foil. Look at the Sandman books in these the title character often is only the facilitator, neither protagonist or antagonist.

- Whirly

So back to my initial question please show me Metallos scope.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

because I'd already given at least one here.

That doesn't change what I was saying. All you did was post motivations for Metallo and actions for Lex. Two completely different things. One can have a single motivation and several different possible actions that could result.

So back to my initial question please show me Metallos scope.

Since when was that your initial question? For that matter, since when was that a question? We already know his scope. He's the muscle. A hired gun. Generally speaking, he would be a hencman. Not like that's a bad thing, mind you. You were the one who was saying the bad guys with a more "epic" scope are better characters.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Since when was that your initial question? For that matter, since when was that a question? We already know his scope. He's the muscle. A hired gun. Generally speaking, he would be a hencman. Not like that's a bad thing, mind you. You were the one who was saying the bad guys with a more "epic" scope are better characters.

So you agree he is a henchman, I can obviously find where I have asked this question in at least two posts and so can you. So you admit he is muscle and has less scope. Why argue it then it seems obtuse.

That doesn't change what I was saying. All you did was post motivations for Metallo and actions for Lex. Two completely different things. One can have a single motivation and several different possible actions that could result.

Because I had already posted at least one possible interesting motivation previously as I have reposted since. You have already admitted above Metallo is merely hired muscle and as such has less scope.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

Because I had already posted at least one possible interesting motivation previously as I have reposted since.

That's not the point. You listed some possible motivations, listed some things that Lex has done or could do, and said they were the same. Which they're not.

You have already admitted above Metallo is merely hired muscle and as such has less scope.

- Whirly

But my point is, scope has abosolutely nothing to do with how good a character her is.

 

[Whirlysplat]

That's not the point. You listed some possible motivations, listed some things that Lex has done or could do, and said they were the same.

No I called them possibilities in the post you're talkin about reread it.

You're still being obtuse.

But my point is, scope has abosolutely nothing to do with how good a character her is.

But Scope does affect how complex stories centering on him can be and how he can or can't drive a story, which is what we were talking about.

Please answer my question or must I repost it a fourth time.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

No I called them possibilities in the post you're talkin about reread it.

I did reread it. And you still used motivations and actions as the same thing. Several different possible actions can stem from one motivation.

You're still being obtuse.

How am I being obtuse?

Please answer my question or must I repost it a fourth time.

What question? I already answered your question about scope.

 

[Whirlysplat]

What question? I already answered your question about scope.

How as a character Metallo is able to drive a plot in the same way Lex can and provide the possibilites for interesting stories as Lex has in stories like President Lex, Kingdom Come etc. To spell it out in a slightly simpler manner.
How Metallo is a character with as many possibilities for novel and unusual stories as Lex?

Perhaps you're not being obtuse, perhaps you are just having trouble understanding me again. You have told me this is a problem with my posts. Show me these possible motivations you believe he has.

- Whirly