What is Pre-Crisis Batman???

[returntovoid]

What period of Batman comics was that???

And how did his characterization and villains change???

 

[TruerToTheCore]

The pre-crisis Batman doesn't really exist. Unlike Superman there was no reboot for the character. It basically refers to the Batman of Earth-1 and 2 (1939 - 1986), well, until "Crisis On Infinite Earths". Or some people would argue the "post-crisis" Batman started with Year One but the last appearance of the pre-crisis Batman was Batman # 400 ("Resurrection Night") and Detective Comics # 567 ("The Night of Thanks But No Thanks").

The biggest difference between pre and post is that Batman and Superman started to dislike each other, before they were the best friends (okay, even before Frank Miller World's Finest changed in tone). Batman got more violent and dark but not that much until Knightfall ended.



The villains didn't change at all, they even continued old storylines after the Crisis. There were also some retcons, like Alfred being Bruce's surrogate father, before he just came into his life when he was already Batman.

EDIT: I actually wrote something about it some time ago:

DC decided in the early 80s that they wanted to streamline their "DC universe". Mainly because Marvel outsold them at that point and so they do what companies always do: They imitated their style. Marvel had continuity while DC had just stories. Each issue another one, not much "crossover" between them. And, more importantly, Marvel had "shared universe" they wanted to make us believe that all these characters exist in ONE world while in the DC Universe each character had basically his own "world", heck, you could even say each title existed in a seperate world. Another point where the countless parallel universes (called Earth-1, 2,3, Z, X and whatever). So DC wanted to change all these facts and created a mini-series (not a good story at all, not really a must-read) called "Crisis On Infinite Earths". At the end of this story the "multiverse" collapsed and "merged" into one universe (which was basically Earth-1, although Earth-2 became the "past" of this new reality). BUT despite what people believe the "post-crisis DCU" didn't start back then. The titles were published as if nothing had changed. The multiverse was not longer mentioned, the memories were wiped out. But the guys were basicaly the same ones. Superman continued, Batman continued, Wonder Woman continued. A short time later Superman became the first "post-crisis character" with the mini-series "Man of Steel", his old continuity and adventures were completely erased. So this is the point were post-crisis (for Superman) started. But Batman doesn't have such an event, so people usually associate "Year One" with the start of the new Batman, the point where "post-crisis" starts for "Detective Comics" is debatable, but usually the begin of Denny O'Neil's editorial reign marks the point. Other characters don't have a post-crisis incarnation at all, they stayed the same.

IMO the Crisis was doomed from the start. They didn't streamline continuity, they made it a mess. I mean, what do you expect when you end the storyline with a guy who remembers(!) the old status quo? It didn't affect Batman that much, but Wonder Woman and Superman became new characters.










Timeline:
Crisis (April 1985 - March 1986)
Last pre-crisis Batman story ("Resurrection Night" / "The Night of Thanks But No Thanks", both October 1986)
Last pre-crisis Superman story ("Phantom Zone - The Final Chapter" September 1986)
First post-crisis Batman story ("A Bird in the Hand...", November 1986)
First post-crisis Superman story (""From Out the Green Dawn..."", October 1986)

 

[Mace Dolex]

I have several of the Pre-Crisis World's Finest and it's true that Batman and Superman were real close friends calling each other "old friend".

And in the post-crisis Jason Todd was hastily re-introduced making his origin as a street punk.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One", which was ran from issues #404 through #407 of Batman in 1986 and 1987 revamped a lot of Batman's history. Alfred having never been hired as a butler by Bruce, but Alfred having been the Wayne family butler serving Bruce Wayne like a nanny since he was a child and Alfred also having medic training, Batman first meeting James Gordon under completely different circumstances than Len Wein's The Untold Legend of Batman #3 (1980) Pre-Crisis and Gordon not being commissioner yet, Gotham City being a completely corrupt city, Catwoman having never been an amnesic flight attendant, but a dominatrix prostitute. Batman first meeting Selina, both as Selina Kyle and as Catwoman, under completely different circumstances than Pre-Crisis. Mike W. Barr's "Batman: Year Two", which was ran from issues #575 through #578 of Detective Comics in 1987, revamped Leslie Thompkins as a medic and as having been a close friend of Thomas Wayne and raising Bruce like a mother after his parents murder. I never liked Mike W. Barr's revamp of Leslie Thompkins because having her being a loving second mother to Bruce and raising him lessens the pain and loss of his parents murder, the driving force for him becoming Batman.

 

[returntovoid]

Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One", which was ran from issues #404 through #407 of Batman in 1986 and 1987 revamped a lot of Batman's history. Alfred having never been hired as a butler by Bruce, but Alfred having been the Wayne family butler serving Bruce Wayne like a nanny since he was a child and Alfred also having medic training, Batman first meeting James Gordon under completely different circumstances than Len Wein's The Untold Legend of Batman #3 (1980) Pre-Crisis and Gordon not being commissioner yet, Gotham City being a completely corrupt city, Catwoman having never been an amnesic flight attendant, but a dominatrix prostitute. Batman first meeting Selina, both as Selina Kyle and as Catwoman, under completely different circumstances than Pre-Crisis. Mike W. Barr's "Batman: Year Two", which was ran from issues #575 through #578 of Detective Comics in 1987, revamped Leslie Thompkins as a medic and as having been a close friend of Thomas Wayne and raising Bruce like a mother after his parents murder. I never liked Mike W. Barr's revamp of Leslie Thompkins because having her being a loving second mother to Bruce and raising him lessens the pain and loss of his parents murder, the driving force for him becoming Batman.

The only revamps that I think were improvements are Gordon and Alfred characterizations.

 

[IBRAH08]

The only revamps that I think were improvements are Gordon and Alfred characterizations.

agreed.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I agree with that. It's also notable that the whole Joe Chill business was rectonned. Before that he was hired by Lew Moxon to assassinate the Waynes. Both guys got killed (truck, fellow gangmembers). In the post-crisis reboot Batman wants to kill him but doesn't get the chance. Then later it was retconned again that Chill was probably not the killer.


It should also be noted that "Year One" was a stand-alone story that didn't really carry over to the regular "continuity". For example, the whole Roman business was never mentioned again until "The Long Halloween" (which wasn't even canon back than). Catwoman was the same then and even knew Batman's identity until she was mindwiped by the Joker to become a villain again. Then in Knightfall Bruce didn't even know who Selina Kyle was!

 

[IBRAH08]

I agree with that. It's also notable that the whole Joe Chill business was rectonned. Before that he was hired by Lew Moxon to assassinate the Waynes. Both guys got killed (truck, fellow gangmembers). In the post-crisis reboot Batman wants to kill him but doesn't get the chance. Then later it was retconned again that Chill was probably not the killer.


It should also be noted that "Year One" was a stand-alone story that didn't really carry over to the regular "continuity". For example, the whole Roman business was never mentioned again until "The Long Halloween" (which wasn't even canon back than). Catwoman was the same then and even knew Batman's identity until she was mindwiped by the Joker to become a villain again. Then in Knightfall Bruce didn't even know who Selina Kyle was!

Dammit there are so many contradictions I can't seem to completely unravel it no matter how much reading and research I've done.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Dammit there are so many contradictions
I can't seem to completely unravel it no matter how much reading and research I've done.

I'll try to help make it less confusing by explaining what appeared where and when:

I agree with that. It's also notable that the whole
Joe Chill business was rectonned. Before that he was hired by Lew Moxon to
assassinate the Waynes. Both guys got killed (truck, fellow gangmembers).

That was way back in Batman #47 (1948) by Bill Finger.

In the post-crisis reboot Batman wants to kill him but doesn't get the chance.

That was Mike W. Barr's "Batman: Year Two" revamp in 1987.

Then later it was retconned again that Chill was probably not the killer.

That was Denny O'Neil's 1994 post-Zero Hour unknown killer recon where
Batman doesn't know who killed his parents, thus kicking Mike W. Barr's "Batman: Year Two" out of continuity.

It should also be noted that "Year One" was a stand-alone story that didn't
really carry over to the regular "continuity". For example, the whole Roman business
was never mentioned again until "The Long Halloween" (which wasn't even canon back than).
Catwoman was the same then and even knew Batman's identity until she was
mindwiped by the Joker to become a villain again.
Then in Knightfall Bruce didn't even know who Selina Kyle was!

The Catwoman mindwiped by the Joker and Dr. Moon was in Detective Comics #569 (1986)
by Mike W. Barr, and that was actually months before Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" was published.
I didn't like Mike W. Barr's mindwipping of Catwoman to become a evil villain
because it whipped out all of Catwoman's character development by Len Wein and Gerry Conway
and Doug Moench and the interesting grey area of her character with her relationship with Bruce.
The first proof that "Year One" was in continuity was the Who's Who Update 1987
entries for Batman, Commissioner Gordon and Catwoman.

The first story to acknowledge the events of "Year One" was Mindy Newell's Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper
in 1989 clearly based on "Year One". But I didn't like Mindy Newell's Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper because it
went overboard in Dark Age grim 'n' grittiness and was sad and depressing
and missed the fun and humor of Catwoman and Holly in Frank Miller's "Year One".

 

[returntovoid]

I thought in the 1970's Denny O'Neil Batman comics, that Alfred was starting to get characterized more like the family butler/father-type figure without further explanation or revamping and Gordon's characterization progressed as more of having a alliance with Batman without further explanation or revamping.

 

[theMan-Bat]

I thought in the 1970's Denny O'Neil Batman comics, that Alfred was characterized more like the family butler/father-type figure without further explanation or revamping

No, pre-"Year One" Alfred was Bruce's hired butler and was regarded as a friend, but not really a father figure giving advice and guidance. Denny O'Neil's "There Is No Hope In Crime Alley" (1976) story reveals that pre-"Year One" Alfred didn't even know the date that Bruce's parents were murdered. Pre-"Year One" Alfred hadn't known Bruce's parents at all.

and Gordon's characterization progressed as more of having a alliance with Batman without further explanation or revamping.

Commissioner Gordon and the police force had a closer alliance with Batman because Pre-Crisis Batman had actually been legally deputized.

 

[IBRAH08]

2
posts for the price of 2

 

[IBRAH08]

No, pre-"Year One" Alfred was Bruce's hired butler and was regarded as a friend, but not really a father figure giving advice and guidance. Denny O'Neil's "There Is No Hope In Crime Alley" (1976) story reveals that pre-"Year One" Alfred didn't even know the date that Bruce's parents were murdered. Pre-"Year One" Alfred hadn't know Bruce's parents at all.
.

I think this is one of the best changes made. Alfred as some kind of father figure (and Alfred alone) is something I've always liked. I feel like without Alfred Bruce could have crossed the line into the dark side (for lack of a more appropriate phrase).