What is worse, B&R or SMIV?

[david icke]

Citing similarities to the comics does not prove this is a good script, you could say the exact same thing about the B&R script, in fact you could say the B&R script was even more faithful to the books and the acclaimed Paul Dini revamp of MrFreeze for BTAS.
the bottom line is that both scripts were executed badly, despite having some faithfulness, and that SMIV's budget problems do not excuse the terrible script. Yes, there is a good idea in SMIV about the nucelar disarmament, but it's in there for all of 5mins before it becomes a cheesey cringefest.
I didn't like the double date scene, it reminded me of a sitcom farce.
and you could say that the themes of family in B&R are just as laudable as the Nuclear disarmament theme in SMIV, both are crapfests with a tiny nugget of integrity in the script.

edit: there is an old saying in the film business, what is important? script, script, script...I think B&R's large budget proves that no matter how much money you have on hand, if the script and direction sucks you will have a bad movie, and SMIV would still have been a bad movie if it had the 35mil budget, it had a bad script and bad direction.

 

[theMan-Bat]

It's not just that those things I pointed out in the Superman 4 script are from the source material, it's that they were good things from the source material in my opinion. A ruthless capitalist buying the Daily Planet and firing Perry White, like Jack Kirby's Morgan Edge did in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #133 (1970), is good because it's a savvy tough boss who isn't idealistic, who just wanted ratings and profits. It's a very believable, actually possible thing and it energized things. Creations made from Superman's DNA, like John Byrne's Bizarro was in Man of Steel #5 (1986), is a fascinating idea to me. Mark Rosenthal revealed on the DVD commentary that he and screenwriter Lawrence Konner wanted Christopher Reeve to play the second creation since they wrote the creation as a darker version of the hero in the cloning process. This would have been financially expensive so Cannon hired the horrible actor Mark Pillow instead. If they'd given the film the budget to let Christopher Reeve do it and the budget to hire a decent costume designer and makeup artist for the character than I believe it would have been much better. I feel that Superman 4 definitely had a better script than Batman & Robin. If it had the [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]budget that it needed[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1] then it would have been a better film than it is.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[david icke]

It's not just that those things I pointed out in the Superman 4 script are from the source material, it's that they were good things from the source material in my opinion. A ruthless capitalist buying the Daily Planet and firing Perry White, like Jack Kirby's Morgan Edge did in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #133 (1970), is good because it's a savvy tough boss who isn't idealistic, who just wanted ratings and profits. It's a very believable, actually possible thing and it energized things. Creations made from Superman's DNA, like John Byrne's Bizarro was in Man of Steel #5 (1986), is a fascinating idea to me. Mark Rosenthal revealed on the DVD commentary that he and screenwriter Lawrence Konner wanted Christopher Reeve to play the second creation since they wrote the creation as a darker version of the hero in the cloning process. This would have been financially expensive so Cannon hired the horrible actor Mark Pillow instead. If they'd given the film the budget to let Christopher Reeve do it and the budget to hire a decent costume designer and makeup artist for the character than I believe it would have been much better. I feel that Superman 4 definitely had a better script than Batman & Robin. If it had the [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]budget that it needed[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1] then it would have been a better film than it is.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Even if they had had a better Nuclear Man, I still think it's a pretty flat script, I mean, SMIII is way better by comparison, and that is not a patch on I and II.
The anti-nuclear stuff is glossed over pretty quickly just to get to a superhero/villan smackdown, the only opposing voices to SM's actions are a couple of arms dealers who meet with Luthor. What would have been interesting, and more realistic, would have been for a lot of countries to oppose SM's nuclear disarmament suggestion, and then to have SM throw the missiles into the Sun anyway, and the resultant fall-out from that.

It hink it would have taken more than a villan touch up and better sfx to make that a worthy sequel to III, never mind I and II.
But, it *might* have been better than B&R if it had a good budget, I will give you that.
Or, it might have been still on a par, as I think it is. I think the only saving grace it has is Reeve's presence, but then, I kind of dislike seeing him in such a production.
but, you have raised some interesting points, so thanks for that,

 

[theMan-Bat]

SMIII is way better by comparison

I disagree. There's only one part in Superman 3 that I enjoy and that's the part where Superman starts flying Richard Pryor around and Richard looks like he's going to piss his pants. That at least made me giggle rather than cringe, unlike the rest of that movie. Superman 4 at least has more scenes that I actually enjoy (Superman's speeches, having to sell the family farm, Daily Planet getting a new owner, Lacy practically sexually harassing Clark).

 

[C. Lee]

I disagree. There's only one part in Superman 3 that I enjoy and that's the part where Superman starts flying Richard Pryor around and Richard looks like he's going to piss his pants. That at least made me giggle rather than cringe, unlike the rest of that movie. Superman 4 at least has more scenes that I actually enjoy (Superman's speeches, having to sell the family farm, Daily Planet getting a new owner, Lacy practically sexually harassing Clark).

You didn't like any of the Superman/Clark fight or O'Toole as Lana?

 

[david icke]

I disagree. There's only one part in Superman 3 that I enjoy and that's the part where Superman starts flying Richard Pryor around and Richard looks like he's going to piss his pants. That at least made me giggle rather than cringe, unlike the rest of that movie. Superman 4 at least has more scenes that I actually enjoy (Superman's speeches, having to sell the family farm, Daily Planet getting a new owner, Lacy practically sexually harassing Clark).

Well, honestly, i think you are in a very exclusive minority there.
I used to really dislike SMIII, it depressed me when it first came out(SMIV I just ignored), but recently after watching both it and SR, i got much more enjoyment out of SMIII. I just think of it as one of Supes' weekend jobs, rather than any of the biggies like Zod and co.
It has some great stuff in Smallville, Lana is great, and there are some genuinely funny moments with Pryor, the part when he picks up the 'kryptonite' from the lab... he gingerly takes the tray with the sample from the lab tech... 'What the hell am I afraid of...I'm from Earth!', and her puzzlement at that statement, v funny, and just the idea of this casual genius throwing 0.57% Tar into the Kryptonite mix because 'what the hell I'm smoking it..'
The faceoff between Clark and Superman in the scrapyard is classic too , and there is some nice interplay between Robert Vaughnn and Pryor.
also
, drunk Superman flicking the peanuts and using the heat vision on the bar mirror, classic.

Tbh, I think you are taking the mickey a bit with that last statement, any Superman fan would at least enjoy the Clark/Superman fight in the scrapyard, that could've easily sat in I or II in the quality stakes.

I mean, what , you prefer stuff like the scene in the gym with Clark and Lacey? Really not much going on there at all, same with the double date.
I do like the little hark back to SMII with Lois, and when she goes round to see him when he's sick though.

edit: Damn, and *the* best scene in the movie,..when the Tar Krptonite starts to take effect and Superman goes all creepy , putting the moves on Lana instead of immediately leaving to save the truck driver, great scene, perfect.

 

[Boom]

I actually love Batman & Robin, once you accept it for what it is.

One of the funniest goddamn movies ever made .

 

[superhero]

I liked superman 4 but i liked batman and robion not surewhy ever one says superman 3 wasworst moive. my favoite part when superman fights clark kent. i just don't see why ever one says it bad moive. sure not good as superman 1 or 2 . i seen worse moives. if i had to chose it would be batmanandrobion. i watch it every now and then. i liked mr frezz. he was really good. i never liked posin ivy.

 

[david icke]

I liked superman 4 but i liked batman and robion not surewhy ever one says superman 3 wasworst moive. my favoite part when superman fights clark kent. i just don't see why ever one says it bad moive. sure not good as superman 1 or 2 . i seen worse moives. if i had to chose it would be batmanandrobion. i watch it every now and then. i liked mr frezz. he was really good. i never liked posin ivy.

For me personally, SMIII was a major letdown back in the day when it came out, it is the feeling i iamgine I would have got if I we had got the Phantom Menace right after Empire Strikes Back.
So, I held that against it for many years(even though i watched it countless times on vhs when i was a kid as there were not many superhero movies).

but now? it's a fun movie, it was watching it round about the same time as Superman Returns that hammered that home, because SR is not a fun movie, halfway through it gets real boring and becomes a genuine chore to watch.

and MrFreeze(btw i think you doubled up on your zz's when it should have been your ee's back there, you try doing that during a game of scrabble and you will miss a go, so be careful) was actually one of the fun points of B&R, the gags are so bad as to be entertaining, and his suit looked great.

 

[theMan-Bat]

You didn't like any of the Superman/Clark fight or O'Toole as Lana?

No, I didn't. Splitting into two people - bumbling Clark Kent and cartoonishly bad-boy Superman wearing five o'clock shadow fighting in a junkyard is too ridiculous for me. Annette O'Toole could have been great if they had given her scenes with more serious heartfelt material. I didn't like Clark eating dog food on their picnic, etc. There is no serious romantic tension between Lana and Clark because Clark is acting like such a buffoon. Director Richard Lester tried to add comedy into every scene.

I used to really dislike SMIII, it depressed me when it first came out(SMIV I just ignored), but recently after watching both it and SR, i got much more enjoyment out of SMIII. I just think of it as one of Supes' weekend jobs, rather than any of the biggies like Zod and co.
It has some great stuff in Smallville, Lana is great, and there are some genuinely funny moments with Pryor, the part when he picks up the 'kryptonite' from the lab... he gingerly takes the tray with the sample from the lab tech... 'What the hell am I afraid of...I'm from Earth!', and her puzzlement at that statement, v funny, and just the idea of this casual genius throwing 0.57% Tar into the Kryptonite mix because 'what the hell I'm smoking it..'
The faceoff between Clark and Superman in the scrapyard is classic too , and there is some nice interplay between Robert Vaughnn and Pryor.
also
, drunk Superman flicking the peanuts and using the heat vision on the bar mirror, classic.

Tbh, I think you are taking the mickey a bit with that last statement, any Superman fan would at least enjoy the Clark/Superman fight in the scrapyard, that could've easily sat in I or II in the quality stakes.

I mean, what , you prefer stuff like the scene in the gym with Clark and Lacey? Really not much going on there at all, same with the double date.
I do like the little hark back to SMII with Lois, and when she goes round to see him when he's sick though.

edit: Damn, and *the* best scene in the movie,..when the Tar Krptonite starts to take effect and Superman goes all creepy , putting the moves on Lana instead of immediately leaving to save the truck driver, great scene, perfect.

Bad-boy Superman is never truly creepy and was done strictly for laughs and is essentially a spoof of Superman. [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In stand up Richard Pryor was insanely funny and cutting edge, but in Superman 3 he's hindered [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]by a lame script, weak dialogue[/FONT] and bad directing. Richard Pryor saying he isn't afraid of Kryptonite and wearing a giant foam cowboy hat aren't hilarious to me. Even Christopher Reeve himself disliked the film and said he felt it was an insult to the character and the fans. Christopher Reeve said about director Richard Lester "[He] was always looking for a gag - sometimes to the point where the gags involving Richard Pryor went over the top. I mean, I didn't think that his going off the top of a building, on skis with a pink tablecloth around his shoulders, was particularly funny."
Plus Robert Vaughn is no Gene Hackman. As for Superman 4, Gene Hackman alone puts it over Superman 3 for me. And I definitely do perfer the Clark and Lacy scenes with her practically sexually harassing Clark over Superman 3's Clark and Lana scenes with Clark eating dog food, tripping over the rosin counter bowling, using his super-breath and destroying the bowling pins, dancing ridiculously, etc.

For me personally, SMIII was a major letdown back in the day when it came out, it is the feeling i iamgine I would have got if I we had got the Phantom Menace right after Empire Strikes Back.
So, I held that against it for many years(even though i watched it countless times on vhs when i was a kid as there were not many superhero movies).

but now? it's a fun movie, it was watching it round about the same time as Superman Returns that hammered that home, because SR is not a fun movie, halfway through it gets real boring and becomes a genuine chore to watch.

and MrFreeze(btw i think you doubled up on your zz's when it should have been your ee's back there, you try doing that during a game of scrabble and you will miss a go, so be careful) was actually one of the fun points of B&R, the gags are so bad as to be entertaining, and his suit looked great.

The last Star Wars film I actually enjoyed was Empire Strikes Back. It looks like we do agree that Bryan Singer's Superman Returns is incredibly dull. It's the bad movie that just wont end. It drags on and on and on and features a deadbeat dad, jealous peeping tom, emo Superman who is a stranger, not a friend. Brandon Routh's too soft spoken and baby-faced making him look too young for the role, and I hate the costume they designed for him. Kate Bosworth looks too young for the role of Lois Lane as well.
I hate Schwarzenegger Freeze's ridiculous ice-puns and costume which is lit up like a glow-stick and doesn't even have the helmet which Mr. Freeze needs to hold in his coolant or he will die. As Mr. Freeze states in Batman #525: "Can't last more than an hour...without my helmet!"

 

[david icke]

Bad-boy Superman is never truly creepy and was done strictly for laughs and is essentially a spoof of Superman.

As I said, that scene when he is hitting on Lana is a great scene, even you have to admit that was played 100% serious and was very effective. If the tone was like that throughout, it would have made it a great movie.
I think you are being too hard on the scrapyard scene as well. who cares they used make up for his stubble, lol. His performance when he was screaming at Kent was top notch, that's the dakness that counts in the scene.
and as for Hackman in SMIV, he is nowhere near as good as he was in I and II, I think his act in SMIV undermines what was good about him in the first movies.
I'm not even sure he gets one good line in SMIV, the only funny one i can think of is.. 'Not one of your great thinkers..', when he's talking to SM about NM.
Pryor and Vaughnn were funnier talking about where his socks went, and I am very familiar with Pryor's career and how different this is from his previous rep, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a couple of funny moments in the film.
I can't believe i am defending SMIII, unthinkable to me even a year or two ago, lol, but in defence of it compared to SMIV, yeah, that makes sense.

 

[theMan-Bat]

We are going to have to agree to disagree. You like Superman 3 and the bad-boy Superman is creepy and 100% serious to you. Not to me. Pryor and Vaughnn were funnier than Hackman to you. Not to me. To each his own.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

Well, honestly, i think you are in a very exclusive minority there.
I used to really dislike SMIII, it depressed me when it first came out(SMIV I just ignored), but recently after watching both it and SR, i got much more enjoyment out of SMIII. I just think of it as one of Supes' weekend jobs, rather than any of the biggies like Zod and co.
It has some great stuff in Smallville, Lana is great, and there are some genuinely funny moments with Pryor, the part when he picks up the 'kryptonite' from the lab... he gingerly takes the tray with the sample from the lab tech... 'What the hell am I afraid of...I'm from Earth!', and her puzzlement at that statement, v funny, and just the idea of this casual genius throwing 0.57% Tar into the Kryptonite mix because 'what the hell I'm smoking it..'
The faceoff between Clark and Superman in the scrapyard is classic too , and there is some nice interplay between Robert Vaughnn and Pryor.
also
, drunk Superman flicking the peanuts and using the heat vision on the bar mirror, classic.

Tbh, I think you are taking the mickey a bit with that last statement, any Superman fan would at least enjoy the Clark/Superman fight in the scrapyard, that could've easily sat in I or II in the quality stakes.

I mean, what , you prefer stuff like the scene in the gym with Clark and Lacey? Really not much going on there at all, same with the double date.
I do like the little hark back to SMII with Lois, and when she goes round to see him when he's sick though.

edit: Damn, and *the* best scene in the movie,..when the Tar Krptonite starts to take effect and Superman goes all creepy , putting the moves on Lana instead of immediately leaving to save the truck driver, great scene, perfect.

Agreed on all counts

Superman 3 is a good/fun film and vastly underrated.

guess you have to be a Richard Pryor fan to enjoy it as I'm pretty sure he had the bulk of the screen time in the film. Seemed like it at least, but I enjoyed every single minute he was on the screen.

 

[Judge Holden]

Batman and Robin had decent production values and some moments of decent acting. It also never took itself seriously.

Superman 4 had terrible production values... it looked like it was made in a shed. And it did try to take itself seriously.

Both are crap films, but at least Batman and Robin is ridiculous and stupid enough to be slightly entertaining on some level. Superman 4 is just painful. You'd have to be a full blown masochist to want to watch that movie again.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

I'd compare the feeling of watching Superman 4 to that of nausea, vomiting, and a migraine

these are all symptoms that accompany watching that pile of crap

 

[Judge Holden]

haha yea i'd agree.

I mean with Batman and Robin if i caught it on TV whilst flipping through channels i could probably watch it just to have a laugh at how utterly insane and ridiculous it is. Especially Arnies cringe worthy... yet lol worthy lines.

 

[david icke]

Agreed on all counts

Superman 3 is a good/fun film and vastly underrated.

guess you have to be a Richard Pryor fan to enjoy it as I'm pretty sure he had the bulk of the screen time in the film. Seemed like it at least, but I enjoyed every single minute he was on the screen.

Yeah, I think they are about equal in screentime, Reeve and Pryor, at a guess anyway.
Pryor was actually paid more money than Reeve for doing the movie, which is pretty shocking.

Man-Bat: I didn't say I thought Bad superman was 100% serious, there is some right daft stuff in there, I only said that the scene with Lana was 100% serious, and possibly the scrap in the scrapyard scene, drunk Superman was pretty good as well, I thought that short scene worked well in the way of being serious. Just watching Superman get drunk and make an ass of himself like a normal drunk person is automatically funny, even though the scene does work dramatically in a serious way.

 

[kedrell]

I've never been a fan of either character so I had no fandom to get insulted by either film. However, Supes IV is worse to me because it actually decended from a loftier height since I love the original Superman movie and it's just so sad to see how far the franchise fell. While the Burton Batman films were undeniably better than the Schumaker ones....I still never liked them all that much. Chalk it up to Donner being more of a story/substance guy whilst Burton was more of a style guy. I'll always come down in favor of the former.

And I'd say Catwoman & Steel are even worse than these two. Especially Steel.

But then, none of these even comes close to my most hated superhero film of all time....but that may be because there I actually am a fan of the character they ****ed with.

 

[Lord]

Huhm? This is easy, Batman and Robin was terrible but Superman IV was even worse, MUCH WORSE, i bet that most didn't even watch SM IV yet, in least B & R had more work into it, while the guy that made Superman IV didn't even care as he used part of the budget for his other film

 

[Ultra Lantern]

Batman & Robin is worse than Superman IV.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

B&R may be worse than SMIV, but GL was worse than both of them combined...sadly.

 

[Micromind]

B&R may be worse than SMIV, but GL was worse than both of them combined...sadly.

That is only in your opinion.

I do not agree with that, Green Lantern is not as bad as Superman 4 and Batman and Robin. (IMO.)

Back on thread topic, Superman 4 had some good moments like Clark visiting his home in Smallville, and selling the Kant farm, Superman at UN, taking about nuclear dis armament.

B&R was bad through out, I see B&R as continuation of Adam West Batman series even then, Adam West series had a better Batgirl.

 

[Micromind]

Chris Reeve was not trying to be campy in SM 4 but both movies are bad, B&R is just un-watchable.

 

[Fudgie]

Batman and Robin is worse

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Okay, having read many of the arguments on either side, I've come to my conclusion. They're both terrible movies, and I guess Superman IV is worse. But that's only because Batman & Robin is one of those "so bad it's good" films. I can watch it and really enjoy how laughably bad everything is - the special effects overkill, the atrocious puns, the ridiculous outfits, the crass toy commercial attitude, and the total disrespect for the characters. It's sort of the same reason I sometimes watch Fox News or read right-wing newspapers: it's so mind-numbingly stupid and against everything I believe in that it becomes almost entertaining.

If you've read the hilarious recap of the movie at the Agony Booth, you'll see that Schumacher gave the writer plenty to work with (all 13 pages). And as somebody pointed out, there are plenty of opportunities for drinking games with Arnie's ice puns. Even though it's bad, all that money on the screen thrown at special effects at least makes for a visually striking picture, no matter how stupid the individual images are (Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, and the "freeze-resistant" Batsuits all look completely, shall we say, mentally challenged).

Superman IV, on the other hand, has Christopher Reeve's performance, but everything else totally overpowers it. Why do Lois and Clark repeat the same scene from the first movie, complete with a reprise of the beyond-stupid "memory-erasing kiss" from the second? People breathing in outer space. Using a lame (and mute) villain like Nuclear Man when Bizarro would have been both truer to the comics and more interesting. Lenny Luthor. Masonry vision, or being able to lift people and objects into the air just by looking at them. Missing scenes. Horrible special effects. In the end, Superman IV just has a crudity and repetitiveness that makes it dull and boring to watch.

Batman & Robin is like a car crash, something so horrible that you can't look away. Precisely because it's so bad, and yet was so expensive to make, it has a bizarre attraction to it. Superman IV is also horrible, but more importantly, it's just boring. It's really a shame, when they tried to make a more socially conscious film, but the execution was just painful. Batman & Robin's badness was on such an awesome level that it became perversely memorable. Superman IV, by contrast, was just lame, and deservedly faded from people's memories quickly. People remember Batman & Robin because it was such an awesome monument to badness.