What next for the WWE, does it have a reason to exist?

[BlackLantern]

Wasn't Rick Rude at the WWF before the WCW? So what was Degeneration X? Was it aimed at kids? What was it's catch phrase? Did it have any kind of salute? Was Val Venis around at the WWF when the WCW was running it's Monday night stuff? What's Val Venis finishing move called? Does it have a double meaning? What was Val supposed to have been?

Yes...but like I said....the character of "Rick Rude" had been used in other wrestling promotions prior to him joing the WWF. WCW actually began their live Monday Night programming in 1995 and first initiated what would be considered "adult" storylines invovling gang-like violence (spray painting other wrestlers, corruption, etc.) at the time WWE would pre-record their Monday Night Raw programs about 3 weeks in advance. Degeneration X was actually the invention of Shawn Michaels himself. The character of Val Venis )adult fim star was introduced in 1998. By 1998 came about both WCW, ECW, and WWE were knee deep in "edgy" or "adult programming" and yes DX told people to suck it....the nWo used to spray paint people and had a "with us or against us" mentality.....so you can really blame Eric Bischoff and Hulk Hogan for creating the nWo and Paul Heyman for having his organization(ECW....which was owned in full by Paul Heyman..completely independent of either WWE or WCW untill its fall in 2001) be the first to put women through tables and such.....

 

[Whirlysplat]

Yes...but like I said....the character of "Rick Rude" had been used in other wrestling promotions prior to him joing the WWF. WCW actually began their live Monday Night programming in 1995 and first initiated what would be considered "adult" storylines invovling gang-like violence (spray painting other wrestlers, corruption, etc.) at the time WWE would pre-record their Monday Night Raw programs about 3 weeks in advance. Degeneration X was actually the invention of Shawn Michaels himself. The character of Val Venis )adult fim star was introduced in 1998. By 1998 came about both WCW, ECW, and WWE were knee deep in "edgy" or "adult programming" and yes DX told people to suck it....the nWo used to spray paint people and had a "with us or against us" mentality.....so you can really blame Eric Bischoff and Hulk Hogan for creating the nWo and Paul Heyman for having his organization(ECW....which was owned in full by Paul Heyman..completely independent of either WWE or WCW untill its fall in 2001) be the first to put women through tables and such.....

But who embraced it all and owns it all. Sorry what was Val Venis signature finishing move called and what does it mean? Can or could kids buy Val Venis action figures? What was the DX salute like?

 

[BlackLantern]

The fact that the cause for what is considered "edgy" and "adult" was introduced by a promotion (ECW) that frequently had wrestlers openly bleeding, violence against women, and various other content was happening in 1995-96....at least 2 years before either WCW or WWE even went down that road. the WWE just has a larger platform.

 

[Whirlysplat]

The fact that the cause for what is considered "edgy" and "adult" was introduced by a promotion (ECW) that frequently had wrestlers openly bleeding, violence against women, and various other content was happening in 1995-96....at least 2 years before either WCW or WWE even went down that road. the WWE just has a larger platform.

The razor and pinching skin to bleed isn't an issue in my opinion it's the context of the violence outside the ring. People get cut in real sports all the time. Sorry what was Val Venis finishing move called again? What does it's title mean in porn and could/ can kids buy Val Venis action figures? Sorry who owns ECW now?

 

[BlackLantern]

But who embraced it all and owns it all. Sorry what was Val Venis signature finishing move called and what does it mean? Can or could kids buy Val Venis action figures? What was the DX salute like?

I don't recall any Val Venis action figures, to be honest. Never been one for toys. Well considering both WCW and ECW created the appetite for said content.....WWE followed suit in wanting to compete for the viewers. in the Summer of 1996 the nWo was introduced in WCW. This grup would spray paint its opponents after "beating them down" Frequently talked about "taking out" anyone that opposed them. DX took that concept a step further...in terms of raunchiness, the crotch chops...the t-shirts that said Suck IT.....I see your point, but you are laying the dead dog at the wrong door.

 

[BlackLantern]

The razor and pinching skin to bleed isn't an issue in my opinion it's the context of the violence outside the ring. People get cut in real sports all the time. Sorry what was Val Venis finishing move called again? What does it's title mean in porn and could/ can kids buy Val Venis action figures? Sorry who owns ECW now?

WWE purchased the tape library and actually the current incarnation of ECW serves as sort of a "minor league" for the bigger shows of Raw and Smackdown and has very little in the way of old ECW content. Very rarely is there any blood...and there are no female performers in ECW...save for 3 valets who are only seen for minutes at a time and are not involved in any matches.

 

[Whirlysplat]

I don't recall any Val Venis action figures, to be honest. Never been one for toys. Well considering both WCW and ECW created the appetite for said content.....WWE followed suit in wanting to compete for the viewers. in the Summer of 1996 the nWo was introduced in WCW. This grup would spray paint its opponents after "beating them down" Frequently talked about "taking out" anyone that opposed them. DX took that concept a step further...in terms of raunchiness, the crotch chops...the t-shirts that said Suck IT.....I see your point, but you are laying the dead dog at the wrong door.

Yup Val Venis figures exist

http://cgi.ebay.com/Val-Venis-WWE-W...oryZ1170QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The WCW only got the members of the nWo due to pay cuts caused by the seediness at the WWE.

taken from Wiki.

The WWF hit a low point in the wake of allegations of steroid abuse and distribution made against it in 1994; there were also allegations of sexual harassment made by WWF employees. McMahon was eventually exonerated, but it was a public relations nightmare for the WWF. The steroid trial cost the WWF an estimated $5 million at a time when revenues were at an all-time low. To compensate, McMahon cut the pay of both wrestlers and front office personnel – close to 40% in the latter case (and about 50% for top level managers such as Bobby Heenan and Jimmy Hart, who both left). This helped drive many WWF wrestlers to its only major competition, World Championship Wrestling (WCW), between 1993 and 1996. During this time period, the WWF promoted itself under the banner of "The New WWF Generation," featuring Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Bret Hart, and The Undertaker. In an effort to promote them and other young talent as the new superstars of the ring, the WWF began to play on the age restrictions which former WWF wrestlers such as Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage (who by now were working for WCW) now faced. This is best seen in the "Billionaire Ted" parodies of early 1996 (a reference to WCW's owner and patron, media mogul Ted Turner) which culminated in a "rasslin'" match during the warm-up to WrestleMania XII.

tasteful stuff? No you're right it's not.

 

[BlackLantern]

well considering both Diesel (Kevin Nash) and Razor Ramon (Scott Hall) had actually been employed at WCW first...went to WWF...then back to WCW by 1996....those allegations didn't reflect what was on the programming at the time...it was only after WCW formed the nWo...with the former Diesel (Nash) Razor Ramon (hall) and Hulk Hogan...did the "adult" programming begin. Plus the wrestlers that were released were the biggest violators of steroids Hogan, Randy Savage, etc. So what is WCW for hiring them on considering all of that past action. You want Vince McMahon to be the be-all end all scapegoat but he isnt. Eric Bischoff, Ted Turner, Paul Heyman...are all just as responsible.

 

[Whirlysplat]

You want Vince McMahon to be the be-all end all scapegoat but he isnt. Eric Bischoff, Ted Turner, Paul Heyman...are all just as responsible.

Not in 2007 they're not, it's questionable they ever were.

 

[BlackLantern]

Not in 2007 they're not, it's questionable they ever were.

How is it questionable? You can even look all of this stuff up. in 1996..the WWE was still very family friendly programming. WCW started out that way as well but introducing live programming on Monday Nights caused a change in their content. WCW introduced the nWo (a gang) in July of 1996...a full year and a half before Degeneration X (suck it) was introduced in Autumn of 1997. at the same time, probably around 96 or so, Paul Heyman was running ECW in Philadelphia and blood in matches, putting women through tables, and people using weapons was the norm on a weekly basis. as far as the WWE was concerned, they were losing viewers to Atlanta based WCW and Philly based ECW.....so they adapted and became very successful at it. So both ECW and WCW created the desire for said programming and the WWE just did a better job at it.

 

[Whirlysplat]

How is it questionable? You can even look all of this stuff up. in 1996..the WWE was still very family friendly programming. WCW started out that way as well but introducing live programming on Monday Nights caused a change in their content. WCW introduced the nWo (a gang) in July of 1996...a full year and a half before Degeneration X (suck it) was introduced in Autumn of 1997. at the same time, probably around 96 or so, Paul Heyman was running ECW in Philadelphia and blood in matches, putting women through tables, and people using weapons was the norm on a weekly basis. as far as the WWE was concerned, they were losing viewers to Atlanta based WCW and Philly based ECW.....so they adapted and became very successful at it. So both ECW and WCW created the desire for said programming and the WWE just did a better job at it.

Yup, Butcher Barbers attacking people with shears, demons, people being buried alive. IRS men, evil prison officers sadistic use of night sticks. Evil Arabs because they are ARabs etc. etc. So child friendly. N-no!

 

[BlackLantern]

Yup, Butcher Barbers attacking people with shears, demons, people being buried alive. IRS men, evil prison officers sadistic use of night sticks. Evil Arabs because they are ARabs etc. etc. So child friendly. N-no!

1.He would cut the losers hair after a match. I don't see how that is attacking anyone

2.First Buried Alive match occured in 1997 during the ratings war between WCW and WWE

3.the Iron Sheik was another character not created by the WWF....but a wrestler that had used the character in another wrestling company.

Hell the NWA had the Four Horsemen through the late 70's early 80's who were all about drinking, partying, women, and limos. The Sheik, another NWA wrestler, used a fireball in his matches. Controversial material has existed in pro wrestling long before Vince McMahon came along. the WWE is just the biggest platform that wrestling has ever had.

 

[Whirlysplat]

1.He would cut the losers hair after a match. I don't see how that is attacking anyone

Really It's an example of emasculation and humiliation. I wasn't thinking of the Iron Sheik, more the behaviour during the first Gulf War.

 

[BlackLantern]

I understand you don't like certain aspects of wrestling. Getting rid of Vince McMahon or the WWE isn't going to change that and here's why. Someone is always out there waiting to shock people....There are plenty of independent promotions that have 10 times worse going on at their shows then what the WWE has going on at theirs. As a fan, i do not think its appropriate for children unless they understand what is going on. Let's say in a perfect Whirly World you can erase Vince McMahon.....you'd still have someone waiting in the wings to replace him and shock the viewers. That's what American TV viewers want....to be shocked. as for the Gulf War the Hulk/Hogan Vs. Sgt. Slaughter thing.....It got people watching wrestling, buying tickets, and buying tshirts...tasteful...not really...but successful...YAY CAPITALISM

 

[BlackLantern]

Really It's an example of emasculation and humiliation. I wasn't thinking of the Iron Sheik, more the behaviour during the first Gulf War.

Ric Flair used to shave people's heads back in the NWA around 78 or 79...is it ok for him to do it???

 

[BlackLantern]

and you try to talk about the UFC...was it ok for Randy Couture to "spank" Tito Ortiz during a match....that's not humiliating.

 

[Whirlysplat]

I understand you don't like certain aspects of wrestling. Getting rid of Vince McMahon or the WWE isn't going to change that and here's why. Someone is always out there waiting to shock people....There are plenty of independent promotions that have 10 times worse going on at their shows then what the WWE has going on at theirs. As a fan, i do not think its appropriate for children unless they understand what is going on. Let's say in a perfect Whirly World you can erase Vince McMahon.....you'd still have someone waiting in the wings to replace him and shock the viewers. That's what American TV viewers want....to be shocked. as for the Gulf War the Hulk/Hogan Vs. Sgt. Slaughter thing.....It got people watching wrestling, buying tickets, and buying tshirts...tasteful...not really...but successful...YAY CAPITALISM

I think get rid of wrestling in it's current format. I'm glad congress is looking into the WWE. I don't think Benoit and the other recent revelations have helped pro wrestling and I think it's one disaster short of being in real trouble with the government in the USA. Capitalism isn't always the lowest common denominator, the WWE sadly is.

 

[BlackLantern]

I think get rid of wrestling in it's current format. I'm glad congress is looking into the WWE. I don't think Benoit and the other recent revelations have helped pro wrestling and I think it's one disaster short of being in real trouble with the government in the USA. Capitalism isn't always the lowest common denominator, the WWE sadly is.

Not going to happen. I live in CT (which is home to the WWE) I have a friend that works as a travel agent there. She is a regular employee and is subject to drug testing. I think changes need to be made, but like i said....you can't stop it....I'm sure if you yanked the WWE off of TV tomorrow....in about a year someone else would be around doing the same stuff if not worse...Congress is actually looking at both WWE and TNA...i hope something positive comes out of it though.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Congress is actually looking at both WWE and TNA...i hope something positive comes out of it though.

I am aware of that. TNA is just all the old WWE rasslers and the WCW wrestlers who never made it to the WWE like Sting. So it also needs to be investigated.

 

[BlackLantern]

I am aware of that. TNA is just all the old WWE rasslers and the WCW wrestlers who never made it to the WWE like Sting. So it also needs to be investigated.

Yes and no...there are wrestlers there who have come from other smaller promotions. TNA's big attraction is known as the X division which highlights smaller stature wrestlers, but better wrestling than the heavyweights.

 

[bullets]

well sting chose not to go to wwe and with good reason

 

[thedeadite]

Wow, is this guy still going on about banning the wwe, and other wrestling promotions. Find another cause man, seriously.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Yup, Butcher Barbers attacking people with shears, demons, people being buried alive. IRS men, evil prison officers sadistic use of night sticks. Evil Arabs because they are ARabs etc. etc. So child friendly. N-no!

I think your anger is misplaced. If you are worried about kids watching this, blame the parents who let them do so. Also, I'll once again point out that the charges you are making against wrestling have been and still are made against comics & comic book movies. So, I think your assertions are hypocritical.

You can wish for wrestling's demise all you want but it's not going to happen. As a follower of SXE, I'm 100% behind steriods being eradicated from wrestling and the competitive sports world. I hope the Congressional hearings help the process. Yet, the hearings are not about the legitimacy of wrestling as entertainment. As long as people are willing to lay down $$ to watch a live action comic book, which is what pro wrestling really is, it will exist. If you don't like it, don't watch.

 

[Whirlysplat]

As long as people are willing to lay down $$ to watch a live action comic book, which is what pro wrestling really is, it will exist. If you don't like it, don't watch.

Perhaps one wriiten by a hack like Hudlin.......Or Todd Mcfarlane, but not a quality comic book and certainly one lacking any of the morality good comics have. I guess though many wrestlers see themselves as recieving super soldier serum if you can call sustanon 250 that!

Roid Rage makes Hulk smash!

 

[amazingfantasy15]

It's hilarious reading WhirlySplat's continuous arguments. Whirly you really need to go farther back than Vince to find the root of all evil for wrestling in it's current incarnation because Vince really is just a follower, he just nows how to make things bigger and (arguably) better. Everything that the WWF started out as was going on in other promotions, Vince just took it to a global level and put it on TV. Up until the WCW was formed Vince was doing basically the same thing for years, sure there were some questionable characters, but they were always portrayed as bad guys and were already established from other promotions. Rick Rude was a bad guy, Sgt. Slaughter was portrayed as a bad guy when he sided with the Iraqis, it's actually funny you bringing that up, since it probably gave some kids interest in the actual Iraq war/conflict at the time, I know I paid a little more attention.

You mention all the people who "defected" to WCW because of seediness in the WWF, but that's not totally true a lot of those "defections" were because of Ted Turners deep pockets, he was paying them more money so they jumped ship. Then enter Eric Bischoff who started the nWo and the more edgy subjects, the gang attacks, corruption, distrust of people in the storylines. While Vince was still chugging along doing the same thing he'd been doing for 10-15 years, but noticed his market share shrinking, so he started the Attitude era of the WWF, intorducing edgier characters like Val Venis, who yes, was a porn star with a finishing move called the Money Shot and The Godfather, a pimp who always came out with his ho train. Look at those tapes though, you'll probably find the audience was getting a lot older, more high school and college age audience members, who were also the ones cheering these characters. Yeah, D-X had thier crotch chop and "Suck It" slogan, but they were more juvienelle pranksters than anything. Vince was really taping into American culture then, pimps and hos were seen as cool, challenging the boss was very big (Stone Cold and later the Rock). If you look at it now, with no competetion it's gotten a lot tamer again and as a result more boring, which is why the audience is getting younger again all the characters for high school/college kids are gone or toned down.