Where Have All the Heroes Gone?

[Comics N' Toons]

I hope this turns out to be a fruitful discussion (or maybe I'm just being lame). This is something that has been on my mind for a while.

Moral ambiguity in comics has hit an all time high. We have more anti-heroes than ever before. Particularly in Marvel Comics. It seems that a lot of heroes are just out there doing their thing but are not heroic enough. It's as if the good guys are not particularly good. There was even an issue of IRON MAN where Tony said that he wasn't a good person. I agree that drama is needed in books as much as the next guy, but self doubt is not very heroic. Does anyone agree with me?

I know there are plenty of other examples in nearly every major character. Self doubt is sometimes needed in human characters (Batman or Daredevil anyone?), but in the more powerful characters who can do almost anything, is that much self doubt really needed? Just a thought.

 

[SuperFerret]

Self-doubt is normal and all people (and characters) should feel it all the time. It is overdone though.

Also, the heroes went where the cowboys went.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Oh, yeah, I think you'll find plenty who agree, but just not many in the overall majority. Some of us have been noticing the same thing of heroes becoming far less heroic in the last two decades, and the rise of the anti-heroes. this idea of heroes actually being villains, and villains winning.

Personally, I think a lot of still stems from the influence of Watchmen in mainstream comics, and the shift to the darker, nastier side of things that's followed the years afterward. And the majority of people love it, for some reason

 

[SuperFerret]

I've been kicking around a superhero story for a while, and I actually play with this there. The character starts off as the usual anti-hero type (killing, violent) but gradually shifts to a more classically heroic superhero due to public opinion of him and his own discomfort with what he's been doing. I'm trying to reconstruct the superhero.

 

[The Question]

I've also been kicking around a super hero story (several, actually, but one in particular). I've basically got several characters at various points on the scale between cynic and idealist, from obsessive angry vigilante man to world weary soldier who's been betrayed by his country guy to slacker stoner mad scientist kid to "I have to save everyone" healing touch person, and they all slide up and down said scale as there's character development.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

I suppose changing heroes is inevitable to make characters feel fresh, but the 90's produced so many "dark characters" that it was seen as a gimmick and became very stale very fast. Even Spidey was dark during the Maximum Carnage stuff.

These guys have superpowers and can do things beyond our imagination. They are broad and big characters who don't really need that much self doubt. Spidey might be an exception as Peter's life never goes right, but if you have superpowers, is constant self doubt necessary?

I mean does THE FLASH really need to brood for 4 issues about his worries over defeating Gorilla Grodd? Why can't he just fight him?

 

[The Question]

I suppose changing heroes is inevitable to make characters feel fresh, but the 90's produced so many "dark characters" that it was seen as a gimmick and became very stale very fast. Even Spidey was dark during the Maximum Carnage stuff.

These guys have superpowers and can do things beyond our imagination. They are broad and big characters who don't really need that much self doubt. Spidey might be an exception as Peter's life never goes right, but if you have superpowers, is constant self doubt necessary?

I mean does THE FLASH really need to brood for 4 issues about his worries over defeating Gorilla Grodd? Why can't he just fight him?

That reminds me of something along this trend that really bothers me. What was the point of retconning Barry Allen's backstory so that his father murdered his mother when he was a child? What did that add to his story at all? Does everyone who decides to do something to help people need a tragic past as a motivator?

 

[C. Lee]

That reminds me of something along this trend that really bothers me. What was the point of retconning Barry Allen's backstory so that his father murdered his mother when he was a child? What did that add to his story at all? Does everyone who decides to do something to help people need a tragic past as a motivator?

Geeze....hadn't heard that.....that's a friggin bummer. That would have screwed up the old Tv series a bunch, they did a lot of family things in it. I don't see the reason to change things like that. Make a new character with a terrible past if you feel a need to write a story like that...but why change an established character?

 

[TheShah]

^ Hmmm, I thought it Barry Allen's dad who was arrested for hi mother's death, but it was revealed that it was Zoom who had gone back in time and murdered his mom?

No?

 

[The Question]

^ Hmmm, I thought it Barry Allen's dad who was arrested for hi mother's death, but it was revealed that it was Zoom who had gone back in time and murdered his mom?

No?

Wait, so the change was caused by Time Travel?


Well, that I can actually get behind, because it's not really a retcon, it's a logical progression of what's been previously established.

 

[SuperFerret]

Yeah, the change was a result of time travel, but still, it's like someone decided that Barry becoming a superhero because it was the right thing to do with his powers was just not sensible enough.

 

[The Question]

Yeah, the change was a result of time travel, but still, it's like someone decided that Barry becoming a superhero because it was the right thing to do with his powers was just not sensible enough.

Or even becoming a criminal investigator because it's the best thing to do with his brain.

 

[SuperFerret]

Or even becoming a criminal investigator because it's the best thing to do with his brain.

That too.


Hmm... maybe that's why I'm not a superhero. I can let go of bad things that have happened in my past and both my parents are alive.

 

[GTBF]

Think all the heroes deal in shades of grey now lol

 

[Jinnobi]

The more heroes are like us, the easier it is for us to relate to their situation. There are plenty of overpowered heroes out there (Superman, Wolverine). If these heroes don't have flaws, people in general become bored with them quickly. Good writers will always push the limits of what the characters can go through without them ultimately crossing the line and doing something non-heroic.

I know that's why I read. At the end of the day, I know that the hero is going to live up to his reputation.

 

[TheShah]

Or even becoming a criminal investigator because it's the best thing to do with his brain.

Well, in a way, I can kinda get past his origins and motivations for becoming a 'hero'.

I mean, his mom was murdered, everyone assumed it was the father, but Barry never quite believed that explanation.
That gnawing feeling gave him empathy towards others' who have unsolved cases, etc in everyday society, so he became a Criminal Forensic... guy.
So initially his past motivated his career... not technically his superhero career.

Then when he was exposed to the lighning strike / chemicals (I forget which is official canon now.) his exposure to a world of crime, made him use his powers to fight crime... a logical progression I would think.
I mean how many former cops have ended up becoming super heroes/vigilantes?

So the tragedy of his mom's death didn't directly cause him to become The Flash, so I can make my peace with it.

 

[SuperFerret]

But there's still no real reason for that to have been changed.

 

[daveswb]

What is interesting about this topic is it makes me think of Smallville. Here is superman, who can do anything, and on of the driving forces that has kept th show going for 10 years is Clark has self doubt about being superman.

This is why a lot of the Smallville fans are not die hard Superman fans. Superman is not suppose to have self doubt.

Is a good guy who is good for the sake of being good really that hard to belive anymore? Has our society become that cynical we can't belive in the good simaritan any more? Complexing thoughts.

 

[Wolfwood]

I don't think it's a matter of that we don't think it's possible, I just think that there's this idea floating out there that those types of heroes tend to be boring or bland.

 

[Kurosawa]

The problem with the Barry Allen thing is his mother was killed when Barry was little, which changed Barry's history. So for his previous continuity to count at all that killing will have to be undone. In the Silver/Bronze Age history his parents were both alive and well into Barry's adult life, of course.

As for the other, bigger issue of anti-heroes: comics are a copycat business and they have been doing Watchmen and DKR swipes for 25 years now. It is beyond stale and they need to move to something new.

 

[Silvermoth]

I would rather read about real characters than "heroes" that always do the right thing. I think Iron Man for example is at his best when he's not very kind or polite. That doesn't make him less of a hero, it just makes him a person who wants to do good which is always fasinating.

 

[Hound55]

Oh, yeah, I think you'll find plenty who agree, but just not many in the overall majority. Some of us have been noticing the same thing of heroes becoming far less heroic in the last two decades, and the rise of the anti-heroes. this idea of heroes actually being villains, and villains winning.

Personally, I think a lot of still stems from the influence of Watchmen in mainstream comics, and the shift to the darker, nastier side of things that's followed the years afterward. And the majority of people love it, for some reason

Personally I like the full spectrum to be represented.

It'd bother me a lot to have, say, 616 Cap become a shades of grey guy though...

You need the pure black and white guys there to give perspective and increased value to the shades of grey characters... Cap's about the only pure good symbol left in the Marvel Universe... after that you're probably looking at Thing or someone, even Spidey's been tainted in my eyes fairly recently.

 

[3dman27]

I hope this turns out to be a fruitful discussion (or maybe I'm just being lame). This is something that has been on my mind for a while.

Moral ambiguity in comics has hit an all time high. We have more anti-heroes than ever before. Particularly in Marvel Comics. It seems that a lot of heroes are just out there doing their thing but are not heroic enough. It's as if the good guys are not particularly good. There was even an issue of IRON MAN where Tony said that he wasn't a good person. I agree that drama is needed in books as much as the next guy, but self doubt is not very heroic. Does anyone agree with me?

I know there are plenty of other examples in nearly every major character. Self doubt is sometimes needed in human characters (Batman or Daredevil anyone?), but in the more powerful characters who can do almost anything, is that much self doubt really needed? Just a thought.

this is a good question bats

 

[J. Custer]

Those simpler times are gone. Now the fanboy hot-shot creators of today feel the need to "up the ante" and sq***** their load all over great characters. no more professionalism, these guys don't play by the rules, man!!!! They're influenced by shock culture pop crap. It's a big business thing now-that is competing with porn and movies and consiously trying to be the next Hot thing.


I remember growing up how comics was a simple pleasure. I'd bring 20 bucks to the comic shop and go home with a stack of comics to read on my bed over the weekend. Newsprint and hand coloring, no murky coloring and computer FX. Marvel heros had a moral code and you could look up to them. To me the X-men, Spider-man, the Avengers were like friends you could count on. I adopted there code as a kid, and that influenced me into adulthood. the characters back then were waaay more human.


Today the women have to look hawt like porn with big shiney b**bies and different characters are b*ng*** each other. Every hero has to be "bad ass". Every character has met every other character 50 times over! I was just reading something recently about a few Marvel villians who have tried to rape different a female characters on occasions. and another thing about a villian who was molested by his brother etc. It's all for titilations sake. todays creators want to turn up the volume on comics in an attempt to one up Watchmen and deconstruct heroes. It's like pissing on the characters.Too many of the characters I grew up with as a Marvel kid are nowhere near what they started out as. They are not heroes!

I'm not talking about kiddie fare, because the comics I grew up with still had mature themes but everything wasn't all "in yo face" and exxxtreme. It's like comics characters developed roid rage or had too many energy drinks! Most Marvel books look like a big mess these days. But I guess that's the society we live in presently.

 

[Dwarf Slayer]

A lot of it has to do with the misconception that violence/drugs/sex = mature and complex story telling. Writers often times use those as a crutch because they aren't creative enough to come up with a good story.

Batman TAS features some of the best Batman stories ever, even when restricted to a cartoon format for children.