Where Mythology Ends and Comics Begin

[TheCorpulent1]

So, clones posted the following in the Bought/Thought thread this week:

Corpy, I don't know if you've done this before. Since you seem to know a lot about the Norse Mythology, would you consider starting a thread where you talk about where the mythology ends, and Marvel begins. For instance, I always assumed that the Warriors Three were Marvel inventions. Do they have any basis in the myths. Any of Blood Oath taken from them (I doubt Hercules is mentioned in them )? What else from the series/minis are taken from the myths. The line from Odin about how if Loki doesn't fix this, he'll hang him from his kids entrails and have snake venom dripped on him, I remember Gaiman using in Sandman. So I assume, that's part of the mythology also. Stuff like that.

If you do start a thead give us the Issue numbers and maybe some good Norse Mythology references that we could check out of the library. Impress us...

It sounds intriguing, not just for me, but for other posters as well, since I know we have quite a few mythology buffs around here. Feel free to post anything and everything you can find on Marvel comic versions of myths, elements from actual myths that carry over to the comics, etc.; Norse, Greek, Native American, whatever.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'll start by answering clones' questions:

- The Warriors Three are indeed Marvel inventions. There are no instances I know of in the myths (although my memory is admittedly rusty) where gods or goddesses like the Warriors Three actually appear. Further, they all seem to be based on familiar archetypes that weren't really represented in the Norse myths anyway. The swashbuckler and the lovable glutton, at least--Hogun could easily be a Viking, except that his ethnicity in the comics is closer to a fictional variant on the Mongolian Huns.

- I can't remember much of Blood Oath beyond the Herc fight, the Celtic pantheon crossover, and the Japanese pantheon crossover. Needless to say, none of those originated in the Norse myths; although the Celtic and Japanese characters are figures from those respective mythologies. I'll look at Blood Oath and some more myths again and get back to you on that one.

- The line about Odin taking Loki and tying him to a rock while venom drips on him is indeed from a myth. It's Loki's final punishment before he returns to bring Ragnarok down on the other Norse gods. I can't get much more specific than that right now, since I don't remember much about the circumstances of how he got there or anything, but I'll look at the myths again and tell you more later. That particular punishment, however, is from the myths.

 

[iloveclones]

Yay!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It'll probably take me a little longer to get ahold of the Eddas than I thought. I'll have the most reliable English translation of the Poetic Edda by Lee Hollander probably tomorrow (sometimes working at a university's humanities library is handy ), but the preferred translation of the Prose Edda is in a storage building that only another department in the library has access to, so I had to put in a request and I'll probably have to wait until like Monday or Tuesday for that.

 

[Vartha]

Well the Eddas I have of Snorri Sturluson Translated by Jean I. Young, The only one I've had actually. but if I remember correctly I think there's one on-line somewhere.
Basiclly MOST myth does have some base in reality. The Edda were a collection of storys but each taught a lesson of sometype.
In ways as I said in one of the threads here, Comics, like myth CAN be used the same way, but are mostly entertainment these days and are more like Urban legend than myth.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Loki's punishment and his role in Ragnarok(myth):

I won't get into sif's hair and what came from that here, I'll leave that for another day, but only the punishment that led to the fall of the gods.

First to note is that even amongst the gods loki was like Tony Stark, Clint Barton and Jennifer Walters combined in that if he could screw it he did. Whether it be horse, fish, woman, man whatever. As a result Loki has had some strange and interesting kids such as the human looking Narfi and Vali, and the monsterous looking Sleipnir (Odin's eight legged horse), Fenrir (the wolf that would slay Odin) and Jörmungandr(thanks to wiki for the spelling) [the world serpent that would kill Thor] among many many others.

Now it's debated whether this was done to kill Balder or just show him up, but balder (the flawless god, often compared to achilles) had only one weakness on earth which was mistletoe (it had not made an oath to kill Balder like all else that lived because it was too young). Loki, who always made it his buisness to know such things, decided to play a joke (or assassinate) on him. All the other gods where basically standing around taking turns hitting Balder with axes, hammers or whatever which had no effect on him. Loki disguised himself as a giantess and gave Hoor (Balder's blind brother) an arrow made of mistletoe and when Hoor used it Balder died.

This wasn't as big a deal as you might think because Balder could be brought back on the condition that all living things shed a tear for the loss. Loki changed his disguise to an old witch and (either out of pride or spite) did not shed a tear and Balder was lost forever. The Aesir came after the witch(loki) who promptly turned into a raven (one of his favorite forms) and flew away, eventually hiding as a salmon.

The Aesir tracked him down and as punishment they turned Vali into an insane wolf which killed his brother Narfi. They then took Narfi's intestines and used it as bindings to trap loki to a rock with a giant serpent overhead. The serpent's fangs dripped some horrible poison but Loki's lover Sigyn was there to catch it in a bowl. Unfortunately the bowl had to be poured out when it became full and during that time the poison burned loki's face so badly that his screams and shaking shook the earth itself (this is where earthquakes came from). After a very long time loki freed himself from his bonds and gathered up his children for a showdown (Ragnarok).

During Ragnarok Loki is killed by Heimdall (who then dies of his wounds), Fenrir swallows Odin whole (later to be killed by one of Odin's sons), and Jörmungandr is killed by Thor who then takes nine steps and drops dead from the serpent's poison (think Bill in Kill Bill Two).

My small contribution for the moment.

 

[Captain Useless]

Also, in mythology Loki is a total pimp.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, Loki has lots of sex with lots of things. That's probably the main reason he became a shapeshifter--more ways to have sex with more things.

 

[taskmaster]

I'm very interested in the mythology that comics will leave behind. I often wonder if hundreds of years from now these heroes stories will be told or if they will fade away. What, if any, mistakes will be made in the re-telling of these stories?

 

[Vartha]

Basically, that's what the myths are TM. Beowulf is the oldest written form of that too.
Beowulf isn't really myth, but it IS a folk tale, which is what comic books are these days.

 

[fifthfiend]

I'm very interested in the mythology that comics will leave behind. I often wonder if hundreds of years from now these heroes stories will be told or if they will fade away. What, if any, mistakes will be made in the re-telling of these stories?

I occasionally wonder how the advent of mass media and the immortal copyright will affect these sorts of questions over the long-term.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

All of the Norse gods were shapeshifters, the major ones at least. Every time the gods get into a bind Loki is expected to come up with a plan to get them out of it. If it works he gets no credit and if it fails it's all his fault. It's his fault even if the other gods including Odin approved of it.

 

[Galact-Gal]

Yeah, like in the first story from Ages Of Thunder, where the giant repairs the wall around Asgard. (I think in the original myth he built the entire wall.) Although Odin agrees with Loki's idea, when it looks like the giant is about to succeed, it's suddenly, "Loki, what have you done?"

I noticed that, although they told how Loki took the form of a mare to lure away the giant's stallion, they didn't mention that that was how he got pregnant with Sleipnir t:.

By the way, can we also discuss Greek mythology in here? What with the Incredible Herc having myths mixed in with the modern day stories?

 

[THANOSRULES]

Marvel Mythos is like Clash Of the Titans.

 

[SenseiofCheese]

Being from Iceland, we take the Eddas as required reading in our schools. It surprised me just how much of it Marvel gets right, but there are things that are straight up weird to see if you've read the Eddas.

 

[Vartha]

Depends on the Writer I guess Cheese. I'd LOVE to have the classes you have there on the Edda's.
Back when I was in high school (mid 70's), the Vin land Settlement was just discovered and the teachers weren't allowed to even teach us about it. To top it off one teacher was teaching us about the way of life there and what not, and suddenly the teacher had to drop that part of the curriculum. Someone somewhere complained about the "Pagan" connection. Keep in mind it was PUBLIC school....It stunk.

 

[Kitsune]

We need more Coyote stories in comics, especially the ones from the North West tribes.

 

[The Geek Vault]

I'm very interested in the mythology that comics will leave behind. I often wonder if hundreds of years from now these heroes stories will be told or if they will fade away. What, if any, mistakes will be made in the re-telling of these stories?

We were having a discussion in one of my classes about realigion and we were betting in thoussands of years that kids will think Comics were the real thing. Sorta like maybe the Bible was just a hero story (I don't mean to offend anyone but it was an open debating class) For instance kids would think that Galactus really exsisted!

 

[Vartha]

Yup it is a possiblity if Marvel isn't still around then. lol
Wow the Corpulent one urban legend or myth?! hahaha

 

[TheCorpulent1]

By the way, can we also discuss Greek mythology in here? What with the Incredible Herc having myths mixed in with the modern day stories?

Absolutely, talk about anything and everything myth-related in here. Or, in the case of Hercules, legend-related.

 

[SenseiofCheese]

Since it was before my comic-reading time, can someone tell me what happened to Loki during Ragnarok? How did he die?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He started the whole shebang by stealing the forge that made Mjolnir and making copies for himself, Fenris, some giant whose name I can't remember, and Ulik. They launched the attack that would lead into Ragnarok and pretty much drove the Aesir out into the wilds of Asgard. Much later, after Thor has his epiphany about the nature of the Ragnarok cycles, Thor comes back, cuts off Loki's head while magically keeping him alive, and makes him bear witness to the final fall of Asgard at Surtur's hands. Then Loki dies with all the other gods when Thor destroys the Norns' loom.

 

[SenseiofCheese]

Ah, thanks a billion. That differs with the actual Norse Mythology, since during Ragnarok, Heimdall and Loki fight to the death and kill each other.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, this last Ragnarok differed a lot from the myths. But that's cool because it also gave us a context wherein the mythological Ragnarok could've just been an earlier one.

 

[fifthfiend]

We were having a discussion in one of my classes about realigion and we were betting in thoussands of years that kids will think Comics were the real thing. Sorta like maybe the Bible was just a hero story (I don't mean to offend anyone but it was an open debating class) For instance kids would think that Galactus really exsisted!

Will they mistake our abandoned resort hotels for the palaces of the Gods?