Who Still Likes Jack's Joker Or Thinks He's Better Than Heath's Joker?

[El Payaso]

I think part of the reason that Heath Ledger's Joker is so well liked is because no one pictured Heath Ledger playing the Joker even reasonably well before we finally saw him.

lol, true.

I was truly curious as for the results: Whereas with Nicholson I believe we all could foresee what it was going to be like.

 

[the_joker]

I think part of the reason that Heath Ledger's Joker is so well liked is because no one pictured Heath Ledger playing the Joker even reasonably well before we finally saw him.

I can't help thinking that Ledger's death probably clouded people's judgements because I remember some pretty fierce scepticism and a lot of criticism that Nolan's Joker used face-paint. I mean an oscar, really? I think in a few years time when people re-watch it with a fresher perspective, they'll appreciate two-face more, who in my opinion was the best part of TDK (and physically resembled his comic counter-part).

As for the joker in B89, I'm biased with growing up with Jack Nicholson being *the* joker, but my nephew who doesn't share any of the sentimental attachments reckons that Nicholson's Joker is more likeable/funnier than Nolan's Joker. So that says it all really when it comes to which Joker will stand the test of time.

 

[The Joker]

As for the joker in B89, I'm biased with growing up with Jack Nicholson being *the* joker, but my nephew who doesn't share any of the sentimental attachments reckons that Nicholson's Joker is more likeable/funnier than Nolan's Joker. So that says it all really when it comes to which Joker will stand the test of time.

Not at all. All my little cousins much prefer Ledger's. The nurse scene in particular gets them every time. Is that a testament who will stand the test of time, too?

As for the tired and weak excuse that Ledger's death is the reason he's held in such high esteem is BS. The hype for Ledger's Joker was through the roof long before he passed away. Between the viral marketing, and the trailer released in December, the internet was TDK mad. Particularly for the Joker.

Heath deserves and has earned every ounce of praise he's gotten.

 

[ALP]

Agreed with Joker. There is still criticism of the face paint(myself included) but that has absolutely nothing to do with Heath's performance and the Oscar. I just find it funny you talked about the the face paint and then the oscar as if heath did not deserve the academy award because the Joker applied makeup lol

People are not going to appreciate Two Face anymore than they do already...Harvey Dent maybe, but not Two Face. How can you appreciate Two Face more when he's only in about 15 minutes of the film compared to Joker who is throughout. Most of my friends are teenagers like me and they prefer Heath as well, his creepier and more sinister Joker is simply appreciated more. Except for my one massively nerdy comic book friend(everybody has one) who thinks that Jack and Heath were both mediocre because Mark Hamill owns the world

I also hate that Cesar Romero is constantly left to the sidelines in these discussions

 

[The Joker]

Agreed with Joker. There is still criticism of the face paint(myself included) but that has absolutely nothing to do with Heath's performance and the Oscar. I just find it funny you talked about the the face paint and then the oscar as if heath did not deserve the academy award because the Joker applied makeup lol

People are not going to appreciate Two Face anymore than they do already...Harvey Dent maybe, but not Two Face. How can you appreciate Two Face more when he's only in about 15 minutes of the film compared to Joker who is throughout. Most of my friends are teenagers like me and they prefer Heath as well, his creepier and more sinister Joker is simply appreciated more. Except for my one massively nerdy comic book friend(everybody has one) who thinks that Jack and Heath were both mediocre because Mark Hamill owns the world

Well said

I also hate that Cesar Romero is constantly left to the sidelines in these discussions

I still say Romero's Joker was the most insane of them all. He wore make up OVER his mustache

 

[hopefuldreamer]

They are playing too very different Jokers.

I think if Jack Nicholson had had a bash at The Dark Knight's Joker, he probably would have been amazing at it. Terrifying even.

 

[Wesley Dodds]

Nah. I don't even like the Nolan movies very much and even I have to Give Ledger his props. Although, yeah, they were obviously playing very different versions of the character, on the whole, Ledgers Joker was the superior one.

 

[El Payaso]

I can't help thinking that Ledger's death probably clouded people's judgements because I remember some pretty fierce scepticism and a lot of criticism that Nolan's Joker used face-paint. I mean an oscar, really? I think in a few years time when people re-watch it with a fresher perspective, they'll appreciate two-face more, who in my opinion was the best part of TDK (and physically resembled his comic counter-part).

I remember people in here being more curious than convinced before we saw any TDK footage. The first picture of Ledger's Joker had a war of opinions behind. "He looks like he had ketchup on his face" and such. Then it was the "He looks like the Crow/Beetlejuice" etc etc. I think the first time people started to think Ledger's going to be really good was when Michael Caine said how good he was.

But I hope that Dent/Two-Face will get more recognition in the future. For me it was simply the best of TDK. But again, few things on TDK were truly bad.

Sure, Ledger's death contributed a lot on the interest around him, but his role as the Joker was genuinely good.

As for the joker in B89, I'm biased with growing up with Jack Nicholson being *the* joker, but my nephew who doesn't share any of the sentimental attachments reckons that Nicholson's Joker is more likeable/funnier than Nolan's Joker. So that says it all really when it comes to which Joker will stand the test of time.

Not at all. All my little cousins much prefer Ledger's. The nurse scene in particular gets them every time. Is that a testament who will stand the test of time, too?

Yep, it seems that different people just think and feel differently.

Agreed with Joker. There is still criticism of the face paint(myself included) but that has absolutely nothing to do with Heath's performance and the Oscar. I just find it funny you talked about the the face paint and then the oscar as if heath did not deserve the academy award because the Joker applied makeup lol

The Oscar is a much more complex discussion for me. It has never been a reliable award to start with. Talentless people have gotten it, very talented people have been snubbed, so who knows who deserves it and why?

People are not going to appreciate Two Face anymore than they do already...Harvey Dent maybe, but not Two Face. How can you appreciate Two Face more when he's only in about 15 minutes of the film compared to Joker who is throughout.

Yeah, who knows. Maybe some people appreciate quality over quatity. You don't have to have a lot of screetime to make your role a good and memorable one.

Oh, btw I'm not saying that Ledger's Joker lacked of any quality.

I also hate that Cesar Romero is constantly left to the sidelines in these discussions

Bring him to the discussion man, I'm all for it.

 

[the_joker]

Not at all. All my little cousins much prefer Ledger's. The nurse scene in particular gets them every time. Is that a testament who will stand the test of time, too?

Well I think the only way we will find out is by the passage of time. Maybe my nephew is younger than your cousins though, because while I think we all agree that Ledger's Joker is scarier and psychopathic, I don't get the impression my nephew appreciated that.

As for the tired and weak excuse that Ledger's death is the reason he's held in such high esteem is BS. The hype for Ledger's Joker was through the roof long before he passed away. Between the viral marketing, and the trailer released in December, the internet was TDK mad. Particularly for the Joker.

Heath deserves and has earned every ounce of praise he's gotten.

Ledger did a good Joker, as a stand alone film without relevance to the origins. He made his mark on it, which is presumably what he intended. In the wider Batman context though, I just don't warm to Ledger's Joker. I want to like the Joker, but I don't in TDK. He's sadistic but not funny about it. He's just creepy, unkempt and too real.

As for his death, nearly every review I read on TDK which sang praises, made some reference to Heath's untimely death. Now I'm not saying he didn't act supremely well, but I do think that his death more likely than not clouded people's judgements with regard to the characteristics and physical resemblance of the Joker in TDK. Or maybe I'm just growing old and cynical, perhaps I just need to accept that people these days don't care about comics anymore, and wanted a different Joker.

Agreed with Joker. There is still criticism of the face paint(myself included) but that has absolutely nothing to do with Heath's performance and the Oscar. I just find it funny you talked about the the face paint and then the oscar as if heath did not deserve the academy award because the Joker applied makeup lol

Sorry I wasn't completely clear, I was talking about a bunch of different things at once. I don't think that Heath should have been deprived of an oscar because of the facepaint, that would be dumb. The facepaint was clearly Nolan's decision anyway, to make TDK more realistic and 'authentic'.

I was just linking the oscar campaign to the over the top plaudits Ledger got, I seriously doubt people would have seriously talked about Ledger having an Oscar if he hadn't died. But in hindsight, the Oscar debate is irrelevant and distracting from the point at hand, which is who made the better Joker.

People are not going to appreciate Two Face anymore than they do already...Harvey Dent maybe, but not Two Face. How can you appreciate Two Face more when he's only in about 15 minutes of the film compared to Joker who is throughout. Most of my friends are teenagers like me and they prefer Heath as well, his creepier and more sinister Joker is simply appreciated more. Except for my one massively nerdy comic book friend(everybody has one) who thinks that Jack and Heath were both mediocre because Mark Hamill owns the world

I agree Two-Face in the film long, but I still think he stole the scenes he was in and could do with a bit more appreciation than he currently gets. But that's another debate for another thread.

I remember people in here being more curious than convinced before we saw any TDK footage. The first picture of Ledger's Joker had a war of opinions behind. "He looks like he had ketchup on his face" and such. Then it was the "He looks like the Crow/Beetlejuice" etc etc. I think the first time people started to think Ledger's going to be really good was when Michael Caine said how good he was.

But I hope that Dent/Two-Face will get more recognition in the future. For me it was simply the best of TDK. But again, few things on TDK were truly bad.

Sure, Ledger's death contributed a lot on the interest around him, but his role as the Joker was genuinely good.

Yeah Ledger acted well, but I just don't feel his Joker is the Joker that I know and love. But I think I'm just behind the times, the Batman world evolves and the 80s and 90s Batman I grew up with is clearly passing over for a different Batman world. Thankfully for me, the comics haven't made the same transition yet.

As for Dent/Two-Face, that's exactly what I mean. He's seriously underrated at the moment.

Yep, it seems that different people just think and feel differently.

It is clearly time for me to step aside for the new Joker fans.

The Oscar is a much more complex discussion for me. It has never been a reliable award to start with. Talentless people have gotten it, very talented people have been snubbed, so who knows who deserves it and why?

I regret mentioning the Oscars, let us pretend I never mentioned it!

 

[The Joker]

Well I think the only way we will find out is by the passage of time. Maybe my nephew is younger than your cousins though, because while I think we all agree that Ledger's Joker is scarier and psychopathic, I don't get the impression my nephew appreciated that.

Some kids don't. Some kids scare too easily. Not that I think Ledger was too scary for kids. Not like say Danny DeVito's Penguin was.

But two years later, Ive yet to hear any backlash about him being too disturbing for kids to enjoy. I don't think the billion dollars TDK made was entirely from the mature fans either. No way. The popularity and influence of the character is INSANE!!!! It's still going strong today. People are still dressing up as him. Parodying him. Even making cars of him: http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhoEM23Gw86w0X8k5B

My cousins range from 6 to 15 years old btw. Boys and girls, too.

As for his death, nearly every review I read on TDK which sang praises, made some reference to Heath's untimely death. Now I'm not saying he didn't act supremely well, but I do think that his death more likely than not clouded people's judgements with regard to the characteristics and physical resemblance of the Joker in TDK. Or maybe I'm just growing old and cynical, perhaps I just need to accept that people these days don't care about comics anymore, and wanted a different Joker.

Well I'm not going to get into into a debate on what you liked or disliked. That's your opinion. But of course the reviews mentioned Heath's death. How could they not? It was shocking, tragic, and the Joker was the last fully completed role he did.

But the assertion a few people make that the praise he gets is because he died is just ludicrous. Especially two years later. Heath, no offense to the guy, but he wasn't even that famous. When he was first cast in the role, a lot of people had no idea who he was. Others simply said "Oh no, it's the gay cowboy from Brokeback Mountain" etc.

 

[the_joker]

Some kids don't. Some kids scare too easily. Not that I think Ledger was too scary for kids. Not like say Danny DeVito's Penguin was.

But two years later, Ive yet to hear any backlash about him being too disturbing for kids to enjoy. I don't think the billion dollars TDK made was entirely from the mature fans either. No way. The popularity and influence of the character is INSANE!!!! It's still going strong today. People are still dressing up as him. Parodying him. Even making cars of him: http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhoEM23Gw86w0X8k5B

My cousins range from 6 to 15 years old btw. Boys and girls, too.

Personally, I remember some criticism about the violence in TDK, especially the pencil scene, but let us not selectively drag up the past. I think the saturation of the Joker has already had some backlash - I went to a costume party that banned the joker dress-up. And what of the controversy of that mock-up of Barack Obama as the Joker?

Anyway, back to the film at hand. I still think that while TDK is a good film, when people in a few years will probably lower their exaltation of the film when they re-watch it with a fresher perspective. Don't get me wrong, the over-hype didn't just come from Ledger's death, although I still remain surprised at some alleged fans' willingness to accept the Ledger's Joker as authenticity Batman, the viral campaign clearly had a hand in it.

Well I'm not going to get into into a debate on what you liked or disliked. That's your opinion. But of course the reviews mentioned Heath's death. How could they not? It was shocking, tragic, and the Joker was the last fully completed role he did.

But the assertion a few people make that the praise he gets is because he died is just ludicrous. Especially two years later. Heath, no offense to the guy, but he wasn't even that famous. When he was first cast in the role, a lot of people had no idea who he was. Others simply said "Oh no, it's the gay cowboy from Brokeback Mountain" etc.

It is far easier to write an eulogy of an actor who died and crown it with his last role being his 'swan song', and you know, Ledger's Joker probably was his swan song, and he definitely did well with the material he was given. My criticism isn't directed at Ledger per se, it's directed at Ledger and Nolan's version of the Joker. It seems blindingly obvious to me that Ledger's death has diverted attention away from whether Nolan's Joker was really all that fantastic. I can see why it happened though, it is obviously not popular to criticise a role a recently-deceased actor had just played. But one should be able to objectively say, look I don't like this Joker in the context of the Batman world and I think more people would say this if Ledger was alive and well today.

Let us just agree to disagree because we could argue this until the end of time and ultimately, it is time that will be the best judge of which Joker will stand the test of time better.

 

[The Joker]

Personally, I remember some criticism about the violence in TDK, especially the pencil scene, but let us not selectively drag up the past. I think the saturation of the Joker has already had some backlash - I went to a costume party that banned the joker dress-up.

LOL, that's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of t: But it just re-affirms my point of the extreme influence Heath's Joker has had on the public.

And what of the controversy of that mock-up of Barack Obama as the Joker?

That was hilarious.

Anyway, back to the film at hand. I still think that while TDK is a good film, when people in a few years will probably lower their exaltation of the film when they re-watch it with a fresher perspective.

You mean like people did with the Burton movies, when Batman Begins came out? Not that Batman Returns (my 2nd favorite Batman movie after TDK) was ever held in very high esteem. Being panned as being too Burton, or too unsuitable for kids etc. It still receives a lot of criticism today.

No, I think TDK, like Spider-Man 2, X-Men 2, and the other highly praised comic book flicks, will stand the test of time. In fact, Empire magazine did a public vote recently.

http://www.empireonline.com/500/93.asp

The Dark Knight was ranked the 15th greatest film in history on Empire's list of the "500 Greatest Movies of All Time", based upon the weighted votes of 10,000 readers, 150 film directors, and 50 key film critics. Heath Ledger's interpretation of the Joker was also ranked number three on Empire's 2008 list of the "100 Greatest Movie Characters of All Time".

Here's where some notable comic book flicks came in:

The Dark Knight #15
Batman Begins #81
Superman #174
Sin City #274
The Incredibles #400
Batman Returns #401
Iron Man #406
Spider-Man 2 # 411
V for Vendetta #418
X-Men 2 #432
Spider-Man #437
Batman '89 #458
The Crow #468
Superman Returns #496

Now you're not going to try and tell me that TDK came in at #15 because of thousands of pity votes for Heath, are you?

Don't get me wrong, the over-hype didn't just come from Ledger's death, although I still remain surprised at some alleged fans' willingness to accept the Ledger's Joker as authenticity Batman, the viral campaign clearly had a hand in it.

The viral campaign, the trailer.....it all had a hand in the hype for the movie. It's only natural. That's what marketing is supposed to do. People were genuinely excited for it. I was there for it all. It was crazy. Then 7 months later the movie was released, and the response to it was equally as positive.

Two years later, and several comic book movies later, it's still going strong. So strong that it's where these silly excuses of Heath's death being the lynchpin for his popularity arise, because some fans, and no offense to them, simply can't accept the extreme praise the movie gets.

It would be just as easy, although rather unfair, to accuse the Burton fans of being merely nostalgic about the comic book movies they grew up with. Or because they were the first ever Batman movies. I say unfair, because I grew up with Burton's movies. I love them not because they made me a fan of Batman, which they did, but because I genuinely love them.

Equally I love TDK because it is a genuinely great movie to me. I believe that is the reason for the other legions of fans who love it, too. It's why when I see cries of "It's only because Ledger died that people love it" etc that I call BS. Talk about clutching at straws.

It is far easier to write an eulogy of an actor who died and crown it with his last role being his 'swan song', and you know, Ledger's Joker probably was his swan song, and he definitely did well with the material he was given. My criticism isn't directed at Ledger per se, it's directed at Ledger and Nolan's version of the Joker. It seems blindingly obvious to me that Ledger's death has diverted attention away from whether Nolan's Joker was really all that fantastic.I can see why it happened though, it is obviously not popular to criticize a role a recently-deceased actor had just played. But one should be able to objectively say, look I don't like this Joker in the context of the Batman world and I think more people would say this if Ledger was alive and well today.

People are saying that. I don't know what you're basing that theory on, but people are not afraid to criticize. Far from it. Especially two years later.

That is the mis-conception I was talking about above. People accuse the praise as people tip toeing around the fact he's dead. If only people were that nice.

Let us just agree to disagree because we could argue this until the end of time and ultimately, it is time that will be the best judge of which Joker will stand the test of time better.

Fair enough.

 

[DarkKnight88]

The hype around Ledger's Joker performance was definitely there in full force BEFORE he died. The December when the first 10 minutes of the movie and the first full trailer were released people were already praising his performance as something extraordinary.

Check out this article from the past which was a full month before his death.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1576855/20071219/story.jhtml

 

[LightningFlash]

Ledger's Joker by far.

But Mark Hamill does a GREAT Joker voice. He's one of the reasons why Arkham Asylum was so popular, imo.

Jack Nicholson, although great as a theatrical Joker, was just what Tim Burton wanted with his version of Batman's villains: over-the-top incarnations. '89 Batman is still a great movie, but it's in a very different league.

 

[Rebel]

I have to go with Jack. He delivered the initial performance of a major motion picture for a Batman film. Although Ledger was outstanding, I feel a lot of his kudos were given from the hype surrounding his unfortunate and unexpected death.

 

[El Payaso]

Jack Nicholson, although great as a theatrical Joker, was just what Tim Burton wanted with his version of Batman's villains: over-the-top incarnations.

Ledger was just what Christopher Nolan wanted with his version of Batman's villains: realistic believable terrorists.

But really, are they "just" that? Nothing else about those incarnations is like the actual character in the comics?

Isn't the Joker an over-the-top character - maybe THE over-the-top villiain par excellence? Isn't the Joker a terrorist also? Isn't Nolan's Joker any less Joker because he had to wear make-up?

 

[ALP]

Yeah that seems like such a silly thing to say(if it's a criticism or even if it isn't).

Isn't everything in the films just what the directors want? It is their vision after all.

 

[LightningFlash]

I call him over-the-top, because Burton wanted over-the-top, wether it be Joker, or Catwoman, or Penguin. Hell, if Burton did Batman Forever, Riddler and Two-Face would have probably been the exact same way Schumacher had them portrayed.

 

[returntovoid]

I call him over-the-top, because Burton wanted over-the-top, wether it be Joker, or Catwoman, or Penguin. Hell, if Burton did Batman Forever, Riddler and Two-Face would have probably been the exact same way Schumacher had them portrayed.

I don't think he would have done Riddler and Two-Face in the over-the-top way. Tim Burton's portrayal of Batman was pretty calm not over-the-top. If his Batman was not really over-the-top then I'm sure he could do the same for some others villains like Riddler and Two-Face.

But I agree that his Joker and in some instances his Penguin, Catwoman were over-the-top but I liked these portrayal's because they were dark not campy and pulled off well.

 

[The Englishman]

Personally, I remember some criticism about the violence in TDK, especially the pencil scene, but let us not selectively drag up the past. I think the saturation of the Joker has already had some backlash - I went to a costume party that banned the joker dress-up. And what of the controversy of that mock-up of Barack Obama as the Joker?

I want to know what sort of a party bans someone from dressing up as The Joker??

 

[DarkKnight88]

Newsflash: Joker IS over-the-top!

He's supposed to stand out and be bigger than life. Both Nicholson and Ledger were over-the-top. They just performed it in a different way.

 

[LightningFlash]

How was Ledger over-the-top besides him wearing clown make-up?

 

[DarkKnight88]

How was Ledger over-the-top besides him wearing clown make-up?

The entire personae of The Joker is over the top. Laughing or giggling hysterically IS an over the top act (especially when falling to your death). There's nothing subtle about the Joker. He's larger than life in both incarnations. We've just come to think of "over the top" as a bad thing and it really isn't when used in the proper context.

extraordinary: far more than usual or expected; "an extraordinary desire for approval"; "it was an over-the-top experience"

"Over the top" doesn't mean bad. Over the top AND campy is bad.

 

[LightningFlash]

Was he over-the-top, or just crazy? Because an insanely crazy man would definitely laugh when he's almost about to die. I would call Nolan's Joker a complete crazy character, but he doesn't seem over-the-top to me at all, imo.

I mean, you can look at Nolan's Batman over-the-top because he's wearing a costume and jumping off buildings, but you have to have some sort of level of where over-the-top is when it comes to certain movies.

 

[Brother Jack]

Was he over-the-top, or just crazy? Because an insanely crazy man would definitely laugh when he's almost about to die. I would call Nolan's Joker a complete crazy character, but he doesn't seem over-the-top to me at all, imo.

There is a difference between being crazy and being over-the-top yes, but Joker is both. He is an inherently theatrical and "big" character, he can't not be that.