Who Still Likes Jack's Joker Or Thinks He's Better Than Heath's Joker?

[El Payaso]

this bit of dialogue is in the film:

vale: "what do you want?"
joker: "my face on the one dollar bill."

we don't see the actual bills in the film, but i think he did throw away fake money. more evidence points to it. as well as the comic, it's also in the novelisation.

Yes, we can see the bills in the parade scene. When he's giving his hubba hubba hubba money money money speech.

And that bit of dialogue proves nothing. According to the comic adaptation, Alex Knox put the bat-cape over him and pretended to be a dead Batman at the end. That never happened.


I'll get back at Joker (the hype member) later.

 

[RustyCage]

When Batman was shooting at Jack's Joker he didn't move. When that bank manager shot at Ledger's Joker he ran away and hid behind a table like a scared school girl.

You're comparing the wrong scenes. 'C'mon, I want you to do it. HIT ME!!'

Think about it. I know you remember that scene. Neither Joker was afraid of Batman killing them. They knew better. Except I'm pretty convinced that in 89's case with the Batwing it was just corny writing as they don't address that side of Batman's character much, if at all.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yes, we can see the bills in the parade scene. When he's giving his hubba hubba hubba money money money speech.

And that bit of dialogue proves nothing. According to the comic adaptation, Alex Knox put the bat-cape over him and pretended to be a dead Batman at the end. That never happened.


I'll get back at Joker (the hype member) later.

I think it makes much more sense that the cash was fake. I think the Joker would find it pretty humorous that all those Gothamites turned out in droves for money, only to be killed, and to top it off, they didn't actually get real money.

Secondly, you're comparing the wrong instances. TDK's Joker obviously had no fear of Batman killing him. This was obvious. He wanted him to. He didn't want to be killed by the Bank Manager because there was no fun in it. Getting killed by Batman, or Dent, had the bonus of knowing that he had completely ruined a "good" soul. Which is what the Joker was after.

 

[El Payaso]

As I said above, the fact that the targeting system somehow magically missed him just totally rubbishes Joker's stand there. There was no excuse for it.

It was silly.

Okay, it's silly.

So? Joker still didn't know Batman was going to miss and still didn't run. And I bet not even you knew Batman was going to miss the first time you saw the movie.

Come now, Payaso, you're clutching at straws there, mate. If Batman decided to not kill him then he wouldn't have pulled the trigger, or he would have completely veered the target sites off Joker at the last minute. Neither happened.

Second, the targeting system zeros in on Joker himself with pinpoint accuracy. Clearly the targeting system is designed for small targets. Batman had been using it a minute previously to shoot down Joker's men.

I just threw some theories. It doesn't have anything to do with my point anyways.

That's a cop out, mate. Everything that happens in every movie is because that's how the writers wrote it. No exception here.

The difference here is that Ledger's Joker was written smarter and more fearless. Jack Nicholson's Joker lived in a Gotham City where he could announce on TV that he would be at the parade at midnight to dump money on the crowd, and there's no Cops there waiting for him when the time comes. The Batwing can zero in on him and shoot at him, and every single bullet will miss him, but he can take a long barrel gun out of his pants and take down the Batwing with one shot. Axis Chemicals is exposed as a front for Grissom's mob, but the place stays open and beyond suspicion afterwards, where Joker can make his poisons in peace.

That's what I'm saying.

Both versions have things that are difficult to swallow. Not only B89.

But as for fearlessness, both Jokers showed they were not afraid of bullets. Well, except that Ledger's Joker ran away from the bank owner when he was shooting. And no "silly thing" or "cop out" was apparently there to justify that.

The authorities in Gotham City in B'89 really are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. I could probably get away with being a super villain there

Same with Nolan's Gotham. You can even have big scars on your face and still can fool Gotham Police's security and end up - you and a henchman - close to the Major so you can shoot him.

Not only that, you can easily kill mobsters and their bodyguards because apparently they're quite weak and gullible.

Also, authorities don't seem to be effective enough to check tons of gasoline and dynamite in a hospital and ferries, even when it's obvious that they could be attacked.

Here's the facts, Ledger's Joker showed no fear towards the prospect of death several times, such as when he challenged Batman to run him over with the Bat-Pod, when he put in a gun in Harvey's hand and pointed it at his head, and when he laughed all the way when Batman tossed him off the Prewitt building.

Another fact is that he did show fear when the bank owner was shooting.

In my opinion, these really show his fearless nature towards death because he could have really died in all those scenarios. For some baffling reason the Batwing's targeting system decided to completely foul up when he fired on the Joker. That's why I don't see it as a fair comparison.

It is not more unfair than the 'Jack screamed, Ledger laughed' comparison. One of them had a reason to laugh, Batman killing him was his ultimate victory, the other one had death as the ultimate defeat.

Both Jokers were under death danger. None of them could know if the shooter was going to hit or miss.

If you want to go out of the way and criticize the entire movie and/or their tones, ok. I did it myself just to show how the game can be played both ways and works.

But at one point Ledger's Joker showed fear, just as Nicholson's Joker did when he finally fell towards his death.

You're comparing the wrong scenes. 'C'mon, I want you to do it. HIT ME!!'

Think about it. I know you remember that scene. Neither Joker was afraid of Batman killing them. They knew better. Except I'm pretty convinced that in 89's case with the Batwing it was just corny writing as they don't address that side of Batman's character much, if at all.

What they did with Batman is another thing. It was 1939 Batman blah blah, he killed at the time blah blah.

The point is that both Jokers showed fear at one point.

I think it makes much more sense that the cash was fake. I think the Joker would find it pretty humorous that all those Gothamites turned out in droves for money, only to be killed, and to top it off, they didn't actually get real money.

Cool. Great point.

I'm just saying that was not what happened in the movie.

Both Jokers didn't care about the money but sending the message, which in both cases was that people of Gotham are corruptible.

Secondly, you're comparing the wrong instances. TDK's Joker obviously had no fear of Batman killing him. This was obvious. He wanted him to. He didn't want to be killed by the Bank Manager because there was no fun in it. Getting killed by Batman, or Dent, had the bonus of knowing that he had completely ruined a "good" soul. Which is what the Joker was after.

Now, THAT's a very important point.

Ledger's Joker did not fear to be killed AS LONG as it was someone who would be corrupted by the act of killing. Harvey Dent or Batman.

Being killed by any of them means the ultimate victory for Joker. THAT's why Joker laughed when Batman threw him off the building and Jack's Joker didn't.

Burton's Batman did not have non-killing rules and he knws it. For all he know Batman threw him to the chemicals on purpose.

From that perspective Ledger's Joker knew it was hard that Batman should kill him in the HIT ME scene. And that's why Jack's Joker probably knew Batman was able to kill him right then in the parade scene.

 

[david icke]

Just on a minor point...I think they deliberately did not edit in the scene that was in the Batman89 comic adaptation, of the guy noticing the money was fake, as they decided it was the better idea for the Joker just to be throwing away real money, kind of like the Ledger idea, that he did not care about money, so it distanced the Joker from regular criminals.
so for the movie, i think we have to take it it was real money as it was not shown to be fake, they wanted us to just take it for granted it was real, and scrapped the fake money idea.
It does make the scene better, to think it's real.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Yes, but neither Jack's Joker nor Ledger's Joker - nor anyone for that matter - could have known how good/bad shooter the other person was untill he already had shot. Jack decided to fearlessly wait and see. Ledger decided to run away.

Ummm...

Not to rain on your parade but...

Didn't Ledger's Joker put a gun in the hands of a man who's fiance he'd just killed, and hold it to his own head? Didn't he allow the man to decide whether to pull the trigger or not by the flip of a coin and not flinch?

I'd say that was a bit more fearless myself...

Him running behind the desk didn't seem like fear... it was more like the Joker playing a game, like a little kid in a laser game. Especially with all the giggling

 

[Travesty]

Him running behind the desk didn't seem like fear... it was more like the Joker playing a game, like a little kid in a laser game. Especially with all the giggling

I disagree completely. He was afraid to die when shooting against the bank manager. Like it's already been said in here, Joker only wanted to die if he could get a message across(ie. to corrupt the "un-corruptibles").

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, I have to concede on that point. Joker was not afraid to die if it served a purpose, i.e. corrupting Harvey or Batman. Being shot down by a bank manager would really mean nothing.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I disagree completely. He was afraid to die when shooting against the bank manager. Like it's already been said in here, Joker only wanted to die if he could get a message across(ie. to corrupt the "uncorrectables").

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree... I think he'd rather not die. But I don't believe that Ledger's Joker was at all afraid of death... I don't think he was sane enough to be afraid of death. Everything in the Joker's world is just a game/chaos.

But I guess it depends on what you mean by afraid. If you mean 'not wanting to die, because you value your life and are scared of death' or if you mean 'not wanting to die right now because your in the middle of making a point'.

 

[El Payaso]

Just on a minor point...I think they deliberately did not edit in the scene that was in the Batman89 comic adaptation, of the guy noticing the money was fake, as they decided it was the better idea for the Joker just to be throwing away real money, kind of like the Ledger idea, that he did not care about money, so it distanced the Joker from regular criminals.
so for the movie, i think we have to take it it was real money as it was not shown to be fake, they wanted us to just take it for granted it was real, and scrapped the fake money idea.
It does make the scene better, to think it's real.

I may believe that it's real or not belive that it's real.

Fact is... good or bad idea it was NOT fake money.

Ummm...

Not to rain on your parade but...

Didn't Ledger's Joker put a gun in the hands of a man who's fiance he'd just killed, and hold it to his own head? Didn't he allow the man to decide whether to pull the trigger or not by the flip of a coin and not flinch?

I'd say that was a bit more fearless myself...

I'd say that's pretty fearless myself.

But not any more feareless than having a bat-plane shooting all over you and you not running away.

Him running behind the desk didn't seem like fear... it was more like the Joker playing a game, like a little kid in a laser game. Especially with all the giggling

Yes, the game when the shooter can kill you and you run to protect yourself.

Yeah, I have to concede on that point. Joker was not afraid to die if it served a purpose, i.e. corrupting Harvey or Batman. Being shot down by a bank manager would really mean nothing.

Yes.

Which means that a Joker that hasn't got that purpose doesn't have to be fearless before the fact that Batman could kill you.

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree... I think he'd rather not die. But I don't believe that Ledger's Joker was at all afraid of death... I don't think he was sane enough to be afraid of death. Everything in the Joker's world is just a game/chaos.

But I guess it depends on what you mean by afraid. If you mean 'not wanting to die, because you value your life and are scared of death' or if you mean 'not wanting to die right now because your in the middle of making a point'.

It's the 'afraid of death' that includes running when someone else is shooting at you.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I may believe that it's real or not belive that it's real.

Fact is... good or bad idea it was NOT fake money.

Actually...no. There is absolutely no fact in there at any point. It's pure conjecture really. There's nothing we can do or say to prove or disprove if it was real money, because it's never addressed. Joker says it's money, but there's no way to disprove or prove that.

There's evidence in supporting media that say its fake, but the movie is official cannon. Joker says it's real money. If there's anything we can learn about the Joker from either Batman film, it's that he lies.


But still, it could have been fake, it could have been real. No way to disprove or prove it.

It's the 'afraid of death' that includes running when someone else is shooting at you.

I would argue that point. There is a difference between being afraid of something, and simply wanting to avoid something. I'm not afraid of getting my shoes wet, but I avoid walking in a puddle because I don't want to have to feel the sensation of having my shoes be soggy until they dry.

I think Joker simply wanted to avoid death by a man where he didn't personally win anything by it. I don't think he was scared of death, he just had other things he wanted to do first. More games to play.

 

[El Payaso]

Actually...no. There is absolutely no fact in there at any point. It's pure conjecture really. There's nothing we can do or say to prove or disprove if it was real money, because it's never addressed. Joker says it's money, but there's no way to disprove that.

There's evidence in supporting media that say its fake, but the movie is official cannon. Joker says it's real money. If there's anything we can learn about the Joker from either Batman film, it's that he lies.

But still, it could have been fake, it could have been real. No way to disprove or prove it.

If the movie is official cannon then you can watch it and stop frame by frame and corroborate it's real moeny.

I would argue that point. There is a difference between being afraid of something, and simply wanting to avoid something. I'm not afraid of getting my shoes wet, but I avoid walking in a puddle because I don't want to have to feel the sensation of having my shoes be soggy until they dry.

Okay, let's translate: "I'm not afraid of dying, but I avoid walking in front of a bullet because I don't want to have to feel the sensation of having that bullet in my body until it gets out of it."

Okay, metaphors more or less, he was "unwilling to be shot" while Jack's Joker wasn't not at the partade scene.

I think Joker simply wanted to avoid death by a man where he didn't personally win anything by it. I don't think he was scared of death, he just had other things he wanted to do first. More games to play.

Isn't that exactly what I've been saying for a while now?

Ledger's Joker had a purpose on that. Jack's Joker did not.

 

[Infinity9999x]

If the movie is official cannon then you can watch it and stop frame by frame and corroborate it's real moeny.

Well no, we can't. Because the money in the movie is fake. Because it's a movie. So the bills seen are high-end replicas.

But putting that aside, there's nothing to disprove that in the movie world, they're not just very good fakes. Jack's Joker was a genius. I'm sure he had contacts in the mob that could have gotten him very good fake cash.

Okay, let's translate: "I'm not afraid of dying, but I avoid walking in front of a bullet because I don't want to have to feel the sensation of having that bullet in my body until it gets out of it."

Okay, metaphors more or less, he was "unwilling to be shot" while Jack's Joker wasn't not at the partade scene.

Well not really. There is a difference between fear of something and simply wanting to avoid it. I avoid homework, I'm not afraid of it. TDK's Joker simply wanted to avoid death because he had more games to play. But I don't think he was ever afraid of it. Jack's Joker showed no fear of death either, but I do have to say that the scene doesn't make as much sense when I watch it now. As a kid, I automatically assumed that Batman decided to not shoot the Joker at the very end, because that's what good guys do.

Still, regardless, Jack's Joker showed us that he was not afraid of death either.

And again, there's nothing to prove that Ledger's Joker wasn't scared of the Bank Manager, but given his earlier behavior, I think he simply wanted to stay alive because he had more games to play.

 

[El Payaso]

Well no, we can't. Because the money in the movie is fake. Because it's a movie. So the bills seen are high-end replicas.

Oh, the mirth! And Batman and Joker are actually actors.

But putting that aside, there's nothing to disprove that in the movie world, they're not just very good fakes. Jack's Joker was a genius. I'm sure he had contacts in the mob that could have gotten him very good fake cash.

The bills didn't have Joker's face in them as he said he wanted to. Seriously thinking that they're fake is like seriously thinking that some aliens abducted him right before the parade scene and replaced him with a replica. Go and disprove that.

Well not really. There is a difference between fear of something and simply wanting to avoid it. I avoid homework, I'm not afraid of it.

Maybe because homework is not going to get into your body and cause you extreme pain and death.

TDK's Joker simply wanted to avoid death because he had more games to play. But I don't think he was ever afraid of it. Jack's Joker showed no fear of death either, but I do have to say that the scene doesn't make as much sense when I watch it now. As a kid, I automatically assumed that Batman decided to not shoot the Joker at the very end, because that's what good guys do.

Okay, Batman decided NOT to kill him. Even so, he shot everything on Joker's parade before coming back again. After having the Batwing destroying everything, Joker just stands there in front of it, NOT knowing whether Batman is going to kill him or not. But he did not run away.

In B89 Batman didn't have (non-killing) rules that everybody knew, like Batman did in TDK.

B89's Batman did kill, so Joker didn't have one reason to think Batman was just the average non-killing 'good guy.'

And again, there's nothing to prove that Ledger's Joker wasn't scared of the Bank Manager, but given his earlier behavior, I think he simply wanted to stay alive because he had more games to play.

What Joker's "earlier" behaviour we witnessed, before the bank scene (given the bank scene was THE first scene in the movie)?

 

[Infinity9999x]

Oh, the mirth! And Batman and Joker are actually actors.



The bills didn't have Joker's face in them as he said he wanted to. Seriously thinking that they're fake is like seriously thinking that some aliens abducted him right before the parade scene and replaced him with a replica. Go and disprove that.



Maybe because homework is not going to get into your body and cause you extreme pain and death.



Okay, Batman decided NOT to kill him. Even so, he shot everything on Joker's parade before coming back again. After having the Batwing destroying everything, Joker just stands there in front of it, NOT knowing whether Batman is going to kill him or not. But he did not run away.

In B89 Batman didn't have (non-killing) rules that everybody knew, like Batman did in TDK.

B89's Batman did kill, so Joker didn't have one reason to think Batman was just the average non-killing 'good guy.'



What Joker's "earlier" behaviour we witnessed, before the bank scene (given the bank scene was THE first scene in the movie)?

Oh come on now El Payso, citing the Joker not putting his face on the one dollar bill as a reason they're not fake is a flimsy argument.

And don't try to brush past the logic of the argument by throwing up something ridiculous like the alien example. No, that's illogical, because there's absolutely no basis to found that idea on.

For the money, we have many reasons to think it's fake.

1.) Joker is a liar. In the same scene that he promises to drop money on Gotham he also says that he is NOT a Killer. Taking the Joker at his word is never a smart idea.

2.) The Joker has a sick sense of humor. Killing thousands after promising money, only to have the added benefit of giving them fake cash, is just the kind of ironic, sick kind of humor he enjoys.

3.) Jack's Joker is a genius. He also has mob contacts. The mob is well known for making fake cash. He could have easily gotten fake counterfeit money.

And then we have all the added media like the comic and the novelization, but again, the movie is the final canon. And yes, this doesn't prove anything, but we can't disprove it either. However, I think it's safe to say that there's a very good chance the money Jack's Joker was throwing out there was fake.

Also I don't think you read my post correctly when I talked about the Batwing scene. I didn't say that I still thought Batman avoided him, I said that as a kid that's what I thought. I realize that's not the case now. I should have made that more clear. My 8 year old mind automatically assumed that Batman pulled away in the last second. But I see that's not the case now. However, the scene really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As a kid, I did wonder if Joker had some kind of super bullet proof armor under his suit as well, because I thought the bullet trail hit the outside of his body (right about at both shoulders), but I never thought on it too much because I was 8.

And I typed wrong when I said "earlier" behavior. I meant "following" behavior. Going off the way he acts in the movie, I think we can safely assume he doesn't fear death, in the bank manager's case, he merely wanted to avoid it. And I think we can also assume he doesn't fear the pain the gun shots would cause, going off how easily he shrugged off getting pummeled by Batman (and having his head thrown into that two way glass hard enough to crack it).

 

[david icke]

I disagree, if they wanted part of the story to be that the Joker was using fake money, then they have to show that, otherwise it's not part of the story.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I disagree, if they wanted part of the story to be that the Joker was using fake money, then they have to show that, otherwise it's not part of the story.

I don't think so. There's quite a bit of reason to think that the Joker used fake cash. And the inclusion in the official comic and novelization shows that it was in the script at some point. However, when a director has to make cuts, he cuts the least important elements from the story.

In terms of the overall story of the film, it's not that important that we know Joker was using fake cash. It doesn't really effect the climax in any way.

And really, it doesn't matter if he did or didn't. I was just saying that there's reason to believe the Joker did use fake cash. And that it has more basis then believing the Joker was replaced with a perfect duplicate by celestial beings.

 

[El Payaso]

Oh come on now El Payso, citing the Joker not putting his face on the one dollar bill as a reason they're not fake is a flimsy argument.

And don't try to brush past the logic of the argument by throwing up something ridiculous like the alien example. No, that's illogical, because there's absolutely no basis to found that idea on.

As it is saying that it is fake money just because you like the idea. Because, other than that there 's no real evidence of it.

For the money, we have many reasons to think it's fake.

1.) Joker is a liar. In the same scene that he promises to drop money on Gotham he also says that he is NOT a Killer. Taking the Joker at his word is never a smart idea.

Yes. Maybe he was not even going to go to the parade. Since everything he says is false...

2.) The Joker has a sick sense of humor. Killing thousands after promising money, only to have the added benefit of giving them fake cash, is just the kind of ironic, sick kind of humor he enjoys.

Sure. Once again, a great idea.

Now, show me one piece of actual evidence that this is true, other that it might be.

3.) Jack's Joker is a genius. He also has mob contacts. The mob is well known for making fake cash. He could have easily gotten fake counterfeit money.

Again, some real evidence instead of great ideas? Something that's IN the movie...?

And then we have all the added media like the comic and the novelization, but again, the movie is the final canon. And yes, this doesn't prove anything, but we can't disprove it either.

So what we can't disprove must be taken as true?

However, I think it's safe to say that there's a very good chance the money Jack's Joker was throwing out there was fake.

Thing is, we need evidence.

Also I don't think you read my post correctly when I talked about the Batwing scene. I didn't say that I still though Batman avoided him, I said that as a kid that's what I thought. I realize that's not the case now. I should have made that more clear. My 8 year old mind automatically assumed that Batman pulled away in the last second. But I see that's not the case now. However, the scene really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless Joker has some kind of super kevlar under his suit.

Whatever Batman did or thought is irrelevant.

Joker couldn't have known whether Batman was going to succeed or fail in killing him. If he stayed is because he was not afraid to die.

And I typed wrong when I said "earlier" behavior. I meant "following" behavior. Going off the way he acts in the movie, I think we can safely assume he doesn't fear death, in the bank manager's case, he merely wanted to avoid it. And I think we can also assume he doesn't fear the pain the gun shots would cause, going off how easily he shrugged off getting pummeled by Batman (and having his head thrown into that two way glass hard enough to crack it).

As I have said many times so far, Ledger's Joker doesn't fear death merely when it means his ultimate victory. It's not the case of Jack's Joker.

But Ledger's Joker - regardless of previous or later behaviour - did run away from the bank's owner shooting.

 

[Infinity9999x]

As it is saying that it is fake money just because you like the idea. because, other than that there 's no real evidence.



Yes. Maybe he was not even going to go to the parade. Since everything he did says is false...



Sure. Once again, a great idea.

Now, show me one piece of actual evidence that this is true.



Again, some real evidence instead of great ideas? Something that's IN the movie...?



So what we can't disprove must be taken as true?



Thing is we need evidence.

I never implied that what we can't disprove must be taken as true. I was merely saying that it's not automatically untrue. There's no way we can prove the cash is real either. We can't prove it either way. My whole point is that there is a basis for people to believe the cash may have been counterfeit. Based on Joker's previous actions, that he's a liar, and his enjoyment of pulling tricks on people.

Thing is that whatever Batman did or thought is irrelevant.

Joker couldn't have known whether Batman was going to succeed or fail in killing him. If he stayed is because he was not afraid to die.

Oh, I've never implied that Jack's Joker wasn't afraid to die. I've agreed with you on that from the beginning. I was merely stating that the scene doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As to why the Batwing didn't hit the Joker. I don't really understand why it malfunctioned...or simply missed.

As I have said many times so far, Joker doesn't fear death merely when ity means his ultimate victory. It's not the case of Jack's Joker.

But Ledger's Joker - regardless of previous or later behaviour - did run away from the bank's owner shooting.

He definitely ran away. But what I've been saying is that this is not necessarily indicative of fear. There are those who desire to stay alive but aren't afraid to die. And Joker's following actions support that mindset.

 

[david icke]

I don't think so. There's quite a bit of reason to think that the Joker used fake cash. And the inclusion in the official comic and novelization shows that it was in the script at some point. However, when a director has to make cuts, he cuts the least important elements from the story.

In terms of the overall story of the film, it's not that important that we know Joker was using fake cash. It doesn't really effect the climax in any way.

And really, it doesn't matter if he did or didn't. I was just saying that there's reason to believe the Joker did use fake cash. And that it has more basis then believing the Joker was replaced with a perfect duplicate by celestial beings.

No, I disagree, from a fundamental storytelling perspective.
I am looking at it purely from the story they chose to tell in that movie, not abandoned script ideas or cut scenes.
If we went by your criteria, 'the Joker is a liar, so we can't know for sure it's real money..', then you can just apply that to anything he does, 'How do you know he was trying to kill Batman there? the gun could have been full of blanks..' etc. so i don't feel you can do that.

yes, we do not know exactly why they cut that scene they kept in the comic, but they did, so that part of the story is null and void, and we can assume it's because they wanted to change that aspect of the story.
Actually, i recall reading the adaptation after seeing the movie and thinking, 'Well, that's a bit lame, the money being fake.' I liked the idea of the Joker just giving away free money for the hell of it, because he didn't care about it. Every little story detail is important as it contributes to our enjoyment of the entire piece, even of they do not mean anything to the plot's outcome, and my guess is they felt that made the Joker scene a bit more interesting, the notion he did not care about money like a regular criminal, so they edited out the scene telling us it was fake.
I'd put real money on that being what happened, a creative descion, and one i agree with.

edit: If they tell us it's money in the movie, that is the proof, even if it's the Joker telling us, we have to accept that as we trust them as the storytellers.

 

[Infinity9999x]

No, I disagree, from a fundamental storytelling perspective.
I am looking at it purely from the story they chose to tell in that movie, not abandoned script ideas or cut scenes.
If we went by your criteria, 'the Joker is a liar, so we can't know for sure it's real money..', then you can just apply that to anything he does, 'How do you know he was trying to kill Batman there? the gun could have been full of blanks..' etc. so i don't feel you can do that.

yes, we do not know exactly why they cut that scene they kept in the comic, but they did, so that part of the story is null and void, and we can assume it's because they wanted to change that aspect of the story.
Actually, i recall reading the adaptation after seeing the movie and thinking, 'Well, that's a bit lame, the money being fake.' I liked the idea of the Joker just giving away free money for the hell of it, because he didn't care about it. Every little story detail is important as it contributes to our enjoyment of the entire piece, even of they do not mean anything to the plot's outcome, and my guess is they felt that made the Joker scene a bit more interesting, the notion he did not care about money like a regular criminal, so they edited out the scene telling us it was fake.
I'd put real money on that being what happened, a creative descion, and one i agree with.

edit: If they tell us it's money in the movie, that is the proof, even if it's the Joker telling us, we have to accept that as we trust them as the storytellers.

Well, not really. We don't have to trust them. The age old example of a man walking into a room and saying "My brother's been killed." What do we know? We don't know that the brother has been killed. We only know that a man has said his brother has been killed. We don't know if his brother was killed, or if he even has a brother.

Now, the difference being, we eventually find out what the truth is (unless it's one of those tricky endings), and I do agree that the money really isn't this kind of case.

There's no way to know if they cut the scene explaining the money for creative purposes or time constraints. I do agree that the Joker's character doesn't seem to be the type to care about money, and if the money was counterfeit, I don't think he did it to save money, I think he did it as another cruel joke.

However, I do agree that once you begin getting into that gray territory of questioning what is what on film, it's hard to draw the line. And on that aspect I suppose I agree with you and El Payaso. I do however, think that in some cases, the extra material (like comics and novelizations) can include information that, though not explicitly stated in the movie, doesn't necessarily have to be wrong. The information that Harvey Dent's father killed himself, for example, in TDK novelization. I think that adds to the story, and just because it wasn't included, doesn't mean it didn't necessarily happen. Sometimes, scenes are simply cut for no other reason then time constraints.

However, I do agree that the film is the final canon. And as I've said, it's easy to see why many would think the Joker did use fake cash, given his nature and the additional information attached to the movie.

 

[akfj]

Still, regardless, Jack's Joker showed us that he was not afraid of death either.

Except when he started to panic when his foot got tied to that gargoyle, and when he screamed as he fell from the cathedral to his death.

 

[El Payaso]

Except when he started to panic when his foot got tied to that gargoyle, and when he screamed as he fell from the cathedral to his death.

Yes. We have agreeed that both Jokers showed frear to death at one point.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yes. We have agreeed that both Jokers showed frear to death at one point.

Well, not really. Again, as I've said, there is a difference between avoidance and fear. I don't think Ledger's Joker was ever afraid to die. He simply didn't want to be killed at the present time.

Again, there is a difference between a desire to live and fear of death.

 

[El Payaso]

Well, not really. Again, as I've said, there is a difference between avoidance and fear. I don't think Ledger's Joker was ever afraid to die. He simply didn't want to be killed at the present time.

"I don't fear death, I just don't want to be there when it happens"?

Okay, then Jack wasn't afraid to die either. He was just angry at having to die without enjoying victory. *shrugs*