I didn't ignore your points, I countered them. If Arrow fails because it didn't show Green Arrow from the start, then Daredevil also fails, which it doesn't, meaning 'there from the start' isn't a good judge of whether there is interest in the finished character. If starting as a batclone is bad, then the comics, which we agree did the same, are also bad, and had no interest in Green Arrow. I suggest that they *did* know their audience, which was why the show was such a runaway success. To me, they did start a great Green Arrow story. Every complaint GA should have about Batman wasn't just 'intelligent' it became real and emotional as well for Green Arrow in a way that wouldn't have happened if he didn't learn those lessons the hard way. And perhaps this me just not being as big a fan as you, but I'm much more interested in a Green Arrow that knows he could have been Batman and chose not to for great reasons than one where an objectively inferior vigilante takes political umbridge with a Batman that doesn't exist in his universe. Arrow Season 2 Opening Monologue: "My name is Oliver Queen. After "five years on a hellish island," I have come home with only one goal, to save my city. But to do so, I can't be the killer I once was. To honor my friend's memory, I must be someone else. I must be... something else." Morally grey, it was, but the season ended with him finding the right answer: self sacrifice, the core of true heroism. It was how he defeated Malcolm, and its what made Tommy's memory so imporant, and everything else proved to be ultimately ineffectual. Tommy became who Oliver was supposed to be. He became unambiguously right, dying to save a girl that wasn't even his. Tommy saw the temptation to be like Malcolm and rejected it. Oliver, after all this experience, after being touched by all of this and spending several months reflecting on this came back with the epiphany that he should... follow in Malcolm's footsteps, just don't kill people... directly. That's a sudden turn of poor writing, imho. The thing he was supposed to eschew was Malcolm's gray area. Specifcally Malcolm's compromise where it became beating up poor folks was seen as an answer to crime, where vengeance is a legitimate path to goodness. That grey area became evil. That's at the core of who and what Green Arrow is and his complaints about society and people like Batman. Malcolm showed in vivid color why that approach is evil, insane and unproductive. Oliver experienced, quite painfully that trying to beat Malcolm at his own game gets people killed. Tommy demonstrated, vividly, that self sacrifice, saving people, even criminals like Roy, is what Oliver does and should value. The show then set up a situation where the Glades desperately needed help. And then it just became about whether he would kill people or not, and the help for the Glades storyline became a springboard for a villain instead of a hero. And it's not just that Malcolm as a dark parellel for Oliver also serves as a stand in for an evil Batman by the transitive property, but even without Malcolm, while wealth for Batman is a super power, wealth for Oliver was a prison, something he distanced himself from the very beginning, something possessed by his mother which had led her to become an evil person by association with the corrupt powerful. There were no sweet martyr Marthas here. The Queen Wealth was dirty, and Ollie didn't want to touch it in Season 1. Ollie's playboy status, which for him was not fake like it was for Bruce, worked against his goals and relationships, and it was something he needed to shed. Him adopting the Bruce Wayne public persona in S2 made absolutely no sense, which is why he kept on contradicting himself because the writers were trying to change the natural storyline to keep him as a Bat-clone, and trying to find ways where going back what he learned in S1 made sense, somehow. But it didn't stop there. Quentin Lance's critique of the vigilante's methods were painted as right and correct. As were Tommy's. Running around on rooftops scaring the ish out of people on a whim is a dick move, and not actually that effective. We're so used to Batman doing it we've kinda been brainwashed, but here in S1 of Arrow, all of a sudden, it was a problem. Quentin was never the obstructive beurocrat. He was always sympathetic, always justified, and in the end, as true a hero as Tommy. Living up to the standard set by Quentin, getting his approval, was set up as a big thing that needed to be paid off. It was, in a way, but the points Lance had made about the vigilante weren't actually addressed. This was exacerbated by having someone looking up to Roy that Oliver knew he had to set an example for, someone coming from the Glades, no less. I don't know man, they set up a really great Green Arrow show, imho. Then they just let all the storylines drop in favor of melodrama and didn't live up to the promises of evolving Oliver, they just had him taking inexplicable non-kill shots. Its that much worse when he's got Diggle there shooting people with guns, because at the end of the day, the show wasn't ready, and still may not be, to take the risk of making a show that's unique. In my headcanon, they actually did Green Arrow right, where he became outspoken against all the things that had made his life and the lives of those around him so horrible, and we all could feel that without having to have liked/known him in the comics. With Green Arrow being the lighter adventurer brigning hope to the downtrodden, a veritable modern day Robin Hood, it would have stood out to be the "True Superhero Show" that Flash eventually became known and praised for. It wouldn't have been overtaken by Flash in the same way, because while Batman is more popular than GA, Batman isn't unique, and the dark brooding vigilante is being done in a superior way over on Netflix and now in the movies. An Arrow who had rejectd all of Malcolm's ways, who eventually had to be Green Arrow because there was all these Red and Black Arrows around, that would have been a really forward moving show that wouldn't have gotten stuck in such a rut because it would have more going on than shipping. They still could have done that too, but Slade would have more to do with his motivations for employing Blood rather than just being Shado-crazy. From there, Flash would have been then equally new. Still super powered, and costumed, but it would have lived up to the promise of hte Pilot, a CSI doing all this cool invetigating usually relegated to Batman-like vigilantes, doing his battles primarily at night (when CGI effects are easier to make happen because lighting reasons). So much less about Flash trying to pick up where Superman left off and inspiring Hope and getting into drag out fights with supers, and much more an obsessive detective whose main problem is finding people, because honestly, once Flash shows up, there shouldn't be much fight, because the dude is so fast. The show had hints of that, but Flash has other problems with direction changing that happened before the show even came out, and while it certainly had a grand first season, it's self contradictions are a topic for another day. But because Arrow didn't use the batclone-ness as a springboard into something new, like the comics did, the show was doomed, even during the much beloved S2. Whoever knew the audience when forming S1 apparently didn't have any say so going forward, and the show is now one of those 'remember when it was good' shows. Of course, some people never thought it was good, but, hey, can't win 'em all. That's my $0.02 (maybe like 3 or four cents at this rate).