Who's done with ARROW, for killing SPOILER off?

Discussion in 'Arrow' started by Gintoki, Apr 8, 2016.

?

Are you done with ARROW, now that Laurel/Black Canary is killed off?

  1. Yes, Killing off Laurel was the last straw for me

  2. No, I'm still going to watch the show

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  1. fire117 Registered

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    Honestly. I'm glad Laurel was killed off as is my best mate. We always hated her character.

    I hope in season 5 Sara will show up and become the Black Canary once again as I thought she was a much better Black Canary then Laurel ever was.

    If any other character was killed off aside from Laurel I would have been done with Arrow.
     
    #76 fire117, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  2. Batsfan1 Registered

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    Sara wasn't Black Canary, in m.o., backstory or codename. Have a very great day!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
     
  3. fire117 Registered

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    She was in my opinion.

    She was a better Black Canary than Laurel ever was.
     
  4. Slade W "Who Is Slade?"

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    Laurel was a better character and Black Canary than Sara IMO. I think she had much more depth than Sara and was more interesting. We saw Laurel reach rock-bottom, and lots of characters on this show become villains and do terrible things when they reach that point (Malcolm, Slade, Ivo, Huntress, Rochev etc). Not Laurel though, she didn't give up and kept fighting, and eventually got through it. Unlike Malcolm, Slade, Ivo, Huntress and Rochev, Laurel got through her crucible and went on to become a hero.

    It reminds me of what Sebastian Blood said to Oliver early in season 2

    Sebastian Blood:

    "Sooner or later, we all go through a crucible. I'm guessing yours was that island. Most believe there are two types of people who go into a crucible. The ones who become stronger from the experience and survive it, and the ones who die. But there's a third type. The ones who learn to love the fire and choose to stay in their crucible because it's easier to embrace the pain when it's all you know anymore."

    Laurel is very much fits the first type of person that goes into a crucible, which I bolded. Malcolm, Slade, Ivo, Huntress and Rochev etc, fit the third type. I suppose now that she is on LOT, you could say that Sara fits the first type too, but much more detail and effort was put into Laurel's crucible IMO, and that is why I find it much more interesting.
     
    #79 Slade W, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  5. fire117 Registered

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    I disagree. Sara fits the first type when on Arrow in season 2 as well not just now when she's on LOT.

    Sara became stronger as well after what she endured and I thought Laurel was an annoying character.
     
  6. Slade W "Who Is Slade?"

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    Sara was still going through her crucible in season 2. She felt guilt for what she had done, and she was still killing her enemies. Her and Oliver used each other to escape the pain they were both going through. Like Felicity said to Laurel in season 3 "I think Sara wore her mask just as much to hide her demons as she did to help people, and i dont see that with you. You have a light inside of you that Sara never had, so maybe you should stop trying to be Sara, and just be yourself". That is a nice way of summing up the differences between them in season 2. Laurel wanted to help people simply because it was the right thing to do, even before she became BC, wheareas Sara did most of what she did to escape the pain.


    The following conversation happened in the 2nd last episode of season 2, where she even admit that she is not a hero.

    Sara: You don't know, Laurel, about me. About who I am, and who I've become.
    Laurel: I know you're a hero.
    Sara Lance: I'm not a hero... Laurel. I'm the furthest thing from it. I am "Ta-er Sah-fer." That was my new name. Because of the woman that I was, the girl that I was, was gone.
    Laurel: I'm not going to pretend that I've been through anything that you have. But one thing that I've learned in the past year is that these things... they don't break us. They make us who we are.
    Sara: And what I am... is irredeemable.
    Laurel: What was that word you said before?
    Sara: Ta-er Sah-fer.
    Laurel: What does that mean?
    Sara: It means "The Canary".
    Laurel: If you're so far gone and so irredeemable... then why would they know you by such a beautiful name?

    This conversation was the beginning of her trying to redeem herself and becoming a hero. Laurel, like she does with pretty much everyone, saw the best in her and forgave her, just as she did with Oliver after what he did to her when he cheated on her with Sara, and her father Quentin, who used her as bait to capture the hood. Heck, she even worried about Malcolm's safety in the episode Dark Waters this season, despite everything that Malcolm had done to her (ie he killed Tommy and her sister).

    In a similar manner to Felicity and Team Arrow being Oliver's light, Laurel was Sara's light. She saw the best in her and brought out the best in her, and sent her on her way to becoming a hero. Right after that, Sara risked herself to save a kid from a fire. After that, it was not all smooth sailing of course. Sara then, in a similar manner to Oliver in season 3, felt that "the ends justify the means" and re-joined the LOA because she felt that it was necessary to stop Slade (they would only show up and fight Slade and his men if she re-joined them). Like Oliver in season 3, she believed that you had to do desperate things to stop powerful enemies like Slade or Ra's. She re-joined them in order to save Starling city, not because it was something that she wanted to do. She was not a hero yet, but she was on the right path, although she still had a long way to go.


    After she was killed and then brought back by Laurel, she returned with a blood lust and a need to kill as a result of the Lazarus pits. Perhaps, in different circumstances, she would have given in. But once again, she had Laurel who was there for her and who wanted to help and inspire her.

    Sara: Laurel, i died. I am still picking up those pieces. The Lazarus pit brought me back, but it left me with this need to take. To kill. I'm dangerous.
    Laurel: After you died, I needed a channel for my grief. I found it in becoming the Black Canary. I found it in you.
    Sara: For me, being the Canary was never that positive.
    Laurel: Then don't be the Canary. Do what Oliver's been doing. Do what this Rip Hunter is offering you the chance to do and... be a hero in the light. Be the White Canary.
    Sara: [Laurel shows her the White Canary costume] Where did you get this?
    Laurel: I have a resourceful friend named Cisco.
    Sara: Where's the mask?
    Laurel: You don't need it anymore. You've lived in the shadows long enough.


    They both inspire each other, but it is Laurel who inspired Sara to become more heroic. Laurel was always heroic and trying to save people, even before she put on a mask. It was Sara who inspired her to take it to the next level. Laurel became the Black Canary because of the grief and pain Sara's death caused her (black, of course, being the colour mostly asociated with grief, mourning and death, and she kept the Canary name to honour Sara). Initially she wanted to avenge Sara, but then decided she wanted to honour her and make sure that she wasn't forgotten.

    Of course, Laurel eventually decided to forge her own path after Felicity suggested this to her "I think Sara wore her mask just as much to hide her demons as she did to help people, and i dont see that with you. You have a light inside of you that Sara never had, so maybe you should stop trying to be Sara, and just be yourself". Even so, Sara was still the reason she became BC and put on the costume, even if her motivations changed, and her sole reason was not just Sara anymore. Sara still inspired her to become BC in the first place, through her death.

    Sara became the White Canary, because she was inpired by Laurel's light and hope. She wanted to make up for her past in the LOA and fight the bloodlust that the lazarus pits gave her. She wanted to become a "hero in the light", because of her sister.

    Ultimately, who the better, more interesting or more annoying character is, is subjective. But Sara did not fit the first type of person going into a crucible "The ones who become stronger from the experience and survive it" in season 2, rather the third type "the ones who learn to love the fire and choose to stay in their crucible because it's easier to embrace the pain when it's all you know anymore". What she said in her conversation with Laurel when she said she is "the furthest thing from a hero" and "irredeemable" confirms this. She was allowing the guilt to overcome her, rather than trying to fight it. She was not as far gone as the likes of Slade or Malcolm though.
     
    #81 Slade W, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  7. fire117 Registered

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    I liked Arrow better when the heroes like Oliver and Sara killed criminals. Think about it. If Oliver killed Malcolm when he first learned he was still alive early on in season 3. He'd have saved himself a lot of grief.
     
  8. Batsfan1 Registered

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    She can't be the better one, if she's not the character. Have a very great day!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
     
  9. DeadFan Registered

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    Really enjoyed this whole post!
     
  10. Slade W "Who Is Slade?"

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    Thank you for your kind words :yay:.
     
  11. SpideyVille Walking out the Desert

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    I'm not going to lie, I've kinda stopped watching The Flash as well, and haven't kept up with the last 5-10 episodes of Legends.
     
  12. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    While this is true, its worth remembering that neither was Laurel. They both had about equally little in common with their source material, and a great deal less than Ollie has with his.
     
  13. Gallops Registered

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    This summed up the entire idea of Sara/Laurel as the Canary/Black Canary to a T. Sara did what she did because it was something she could do. She didn't intend on being the hero, just somewhat do what she felt was right and was she had to do to survive.

    Laurel on the other hand was a hero in a sense from S1 E1. She started off as a lawyer helping those who NEEDED help and was against everything that was wrong. Then she started working with the DA's office and aimed to take down high up criminals. She eventually turned her grief from Tommy and eventually Sara's deaths into becoming something greater. Someone in the light and the dark in the Black Canary. I felt her character grew the most of anyone on the show.

    Oliver from Season 1 took pleasure in killing criminals. Sara killed because it came natural to her because of the LOA.

    After Tommy died, he realized killing criminals made him no better than them. He killed Ra's because it was the ONLY answer. He is going to likely kill Dahrk because it'll be the ONLY answer.

    You can talk about saving a lot of grief with Batman and Joker too. Joker caused Batman more grief than Merlyn has caused Oliver. Merlyn has also helped Oliver on occasion where without him, him and his family would be all dead.
     
  14. Antman2015 Registered

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    i still watch but its almost becoming embarassing to admit to lol. id like to think itll get better again some day but maybe im just a hopeless optimist
     
  15. KillerMcQueen Mortal-ish

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    Yeah, unless Mericle and Guggenheim get replaced, I don't see things changing.
     
  16. Gintoki Registered

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    I hope DC and Greg Brings over Kevin Smith to ARROW, he has good relations with them, including Geoff Johns.

    Marc and Wendy needs to go away.
     
  17. herolee10 No More Miracles

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    Honestly, I feel like the biggest thing fans could do to make an point that Marc G and his groupies need to go would be jeering and booing them at comic con. Normally I'm against things like that but Marc has been disrespectful to ppl (and to general fans)who have actually called him out on his bs
     
  18. TheRedWraith Registered

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    I wish I could but my completionist mind set means I have to see it to the end now.
     
  19. Sara Lance Registered

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    I lost any passion for the show with the humiliating and idiotic death of Sara. And if this wasn't bad enough the entire season essentially set out to destroy what made the show good in the first place aka the bond between Oliver, Diggle and Felicity and replaced with this ridiculous League storyline.

    As for Laurel...honestly maybe it's just me but I think there was some serious behind the scenes feuds between Katie Cassidy and the creators of the show.

    Laurel was meant to be the female lead of this show. One of the two pillars that should have been the heart of this. But she had practically zero chemistry with any of the other characters and her story lines were at best mediocre and you could see how unenthusiastic she was about playing them . Then out of nowhere Felicity comes a long. A character who should have been a mere recurring guest character suddenly blew up and completely eclipsed her. She had great chemistry with everybody, she got good story lines, she was a massive fan favorite...while Laurel was considered pretty much an annoying eyesore. That had got to sting

    And season 2 became even worse. Laurel once again got mediocre storylines and then if this wasn't bad enough Caity Lotz appeared as Sara Lance. I am pretty sure she was meant to be a filler, someone who was simply meant to catapult Laurel into becoming a hero but instead she got to relive the Felicity nightmare again. Sara Lance was oozing with charisma, had a great chemistry with the entire cast and the fans loved her

    I think at this point Katie Cassidy had ****ing enough of playing the good little soldier and she demanded what was promised to her when she signed the contract. To play a hero, to get the attention she deserves. So they probably had no choice but to fulfill their contractual obligations and being that they are crap writers they decided to kill Sara as a way to push Laurel. And boy did they push her hard. It wasn't even subtle. And to Katie Cassidy's credit she tried. She tried really hard to use the opportunity she fought for. It was like she had finally awoken after three season and she had a new energy. I am guessing she was hoping that this would help her get a spinoff and leave this wretched show.

    But it didn't really work. While improved Laurel still didn't really manage to become a fan favorite. And the fact that she was constantly compared to Caity Lotz and always fell short didn't help either. So when the fourth season came which I am guessing is how long her original contract for the show was she didn't have any more cards up her sleeve. So the creators now free of contractual obligation quite likely gleefully didn't renew contract and went out of their way to kill her character and confirm that she is dead on top of that. Probably also tried to blacklist her out of the CW. This is the kind of petty **** that Hollywood is built around


    Yeah yeah I know. Complete conspiracy theories based on absolutely nothing but my wild imagination. But whether I am right or not about the details I think there was definitely bad blood between Katie Cassidy and the creators
     
  20. Boy Scout Registered

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    Why would her contract only be for four years while everybody else's was between five and seven?
     
  21. Sara Lance Registered

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    They are? I was just randomly guessing. Five year contracts. Damn the CW really like to put their hooks into actors
     
  22. SM_experiment Registered

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    When Oliver Queen and Green Arrow was killed off and replaced with Batarcher 1.1........... more a joke than anything but i am a huge Green Arrow fan and for me this series never had him in it and Stephen Amell for me is not a good actor.
     
  23. Syncos ROFLICIOUS

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    Just going to go ahead and play devils advocate here, as I pretty much agree with you. My ideal Green Arrow is the left wing Fatcat fightin' 70's - New 52 Character.

    However. He was created in 1941, and had a LONG stretch where the character WAS basically a Batman knockoff. Arrowcave, Arrowplane (I couldn't make this crap up) etc. Then the New 52 (2011) is basically what started THIS Arrow. A dude with a team of people behind him.

    Arrow came out in 2012, so it was clearly running off of what was "currently" the status quo for GA in the books. Whether that was the right move or not, who knows.

    In my opinion; DC ruined their character, THEN CW made a show about him.
    Unfortunately, Flarrow can't just Rebirth.
     
  24. SpideyVille Walking out the Desert

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    I thought the contracts were 7 years.
     
  25. SM_experiment Registered

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    Yeah but up until 1969 when he was reimagined it was also done very tongue in cheek and I really have no problem referencing it for humour but again why should we see a character who has a 40 year history before new 52 being represented for the first time in a Tv series of his own as essentially just a batclone withour the tongue in cheek. (I like Brave and the Bold where they mine it all for humour) Hell I kinda would have wanted him to call his headquarters for the Arrowcave largely as a joke. Because Green Arrow has a sense of humour unlike Arrows serious moron.

    Do not get me started with new 52 (sooo much potential wasted). But there is a reason why the comics did not sell well until first Ann Nocenti came in and later Jeff LEmire which while not that good kept it alive until the Arrow creators came in and it plunged and was almost cancelled until Ben Piercy came in and started writing a good Green Arrow again.

    So for me it is not so much DC ****ing up their own character as gicing the creators of Arrow the go ahead to do what ever they wanted with no attachment to the comics.

    I know you were playing devils advocate but probably I will not talk to anyone else here about what makes this tv show grate for me so much. So i took an opportunity.
     

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