Why do you think female superhero movies don't work out in the end?

[ariellem]

So you didn't gravitate towards Flux because of "the skimpy, obviously male-aimed, female-objectifying S&M outfits" but you remember enjoying Catwoman in "Batman Returns?" There seems to be a conflict in what you are saying. Certainly the Pfeiffer was the MOST S&M female character in the history of comic book filmdom?

Not that there's anything wrong with that? From what you and some other folks here are saying - and from personal observation - men are more likely to see a woman in an action hero flick *because* of what she is (or isn't) wearing. Or is it that men are less likely to see a woman in an action hero flick if she isn't showing skin or wearing a really jaw-dropping outfit?

I went to see Batman Returns because it was Batman and because I like Michelle Pfeiffer in pretty much everything I've seen her in (Grease II included). I certainly thought her outfit, the writing, etc. was over the top. If she had been in a standalone version of Catwoman at that time, I'm sure I would have gone to see it. But it would have been *despite* all the stuff I'm ranking on, not *because* of it.

Halle Berry is a fine actress, but I don't find her as enthralling, exciting, entertaining as Michelle Pfeiffer. Didn't hear much in the way of good reviews of her Catwoman either, so I didn't go.

The Aeon Flux idea seemed interesting, but the reviews I heard for that suggested the movie hadn't been done well as a story - that it jumped around a lot and was pretty surrealistic.

There's no perfect answer here, obviously - different people like different types of movies. Doesn't mean Mr. Young Male Demographic should get all the good action flicks, though - that was my main point. I'm waiting for your reasoning to the contrary...

 

[nocomics]

I just think movie studios think they can make a chick hero and make the movie successfull if they just put a hot chick in it with little atire and make it work. Well,that just doesn't cut it,and dont seem the studios undestand that.

aeon flux,was a terrible movie,wouldn't matter if it was a guy in lead role.ultraviolet,though I did like this movie to a certain extent was overall bad responce. Catwomen,enough said,and studio thought it would do well,if u put halle berry in a skimpy outfit,not..
Been a few movies that did well with women in main roles: decent,silent hill,I guess you can call tomb raider a somewhat success..
I think it just falls onto the studios and their male shovinistic ideas that all it takes to make a successful women hero is looks and skin.

 

[Michael Allred]

Not that there's anything wrong with that? From what you and some other folks here are saying - and from personal observation - men are more likely to see a woman in an action hero flick *because* of what she is (or isn't) wearing. Or is it that men are less likely to see a woman in an action hero flick if she isn't showing skin or wearing a really jaw-dropping outfit?

I went to see Batman Returns because it was Batman and because I like Michelle Pfeiffer in pretty much everything I've seen her in (Grease II included). I certainly thought her outfit, the writing, etc. was over the top. If she had been in a standalone version of Catwoman at that time, I'm sure I would have gone to see it. But it would have been *despite* all the stuff I'm ranking on, not *because* of it.

Halle Berry is a fine actress, but I don't find her as enthralling, exciting, entertaining as Michelle Pfeiffer. Didn't hear much in the way of good reviews of her Catwoman either, so I didn't go.

The Aeon Flux idea seemed interesting, but the reviews I heard for that suggested the movie hadn't been done well as a story - that it jumped around a lot and was pretty surrealistic.

There's no perfect answer here, obviously - different people like different types of movies. Doesn't mean Mr. Young Male Demographic should get all the good action flicks, though - that was my main point. I'm waiting for your reasoning to the contrary...

Hmm, I thought I had given my reasons already?

Let me boil it down really quickly then. There's no money in it. Making action or superhero movies for women starring women? There's no money in it. That's really all it comes down to. The figures speak for themselves and rightly or wrongly, the perception is men just don't care about female heroes and seemingly neither do most women. It's just not a genre that appeals to most females. There's not much more I can add without repeating myself.

I will say this (and clearly I'm only speaking for myself here) if there were more characters written and portrayed like Michelle's Catwoman or Uma's The Bride, I'd definitely be more interested in seeing those movies but let's face it, I don't think we're gonna see a Ripley (ahh, Sigorney...) on screen for some time.

 

[GL1]

^The issue like I mentioned, is that the male superheroes have some kind of conflict or flaw going on that makes them relatable. The females are just these hot, kick ass and take name types, and they don't seem to have any flaws at all...they're basically eye candy. Give me a female that has the personality of a Spider-Man, and that would be much more interesting. Don't make them infallible. Like, have her attempt to perform an attack, screw it up, and self-deprecate herself a little in the process.

Booyah! (terry78's so cool)

There a lot that can be said for target audience and demographics, but relatable characters simply trancend that... good stories still sell, because no matter how popular everyone wants to be, most people are still drawn more to what is actually good more than what is cool, and hence, it becomes cool.

If these movies, ANY of them, Elektra, Ultraviolet, Aeon Flux, Catwoman, whatever, had a relatable heroine, someone with problems, issues and insecurities, y'know, like the leads in Kill Bill, Aliens and even Underworld, then we would have something. A Trinity movie would have aced because we know how WEAK Trinity is. Producers, they end up trying to play to the typical male demographic and make a hot babe and they just don't realize that a hot babe can't sell a two hour movie... you have to have character... regardless of gender. And when you are making a movie where you as a filmmaker invest in the character, you'll always have a better movie.

Of course, some studios may feel that it's the "woman action hero" that is the problem, but that is simply because they are ignorant to what is going on.

Bottom line: Well defined characters like Spider-Man and The Bride sell, and make for great movies. Weakly defined characters like Daredevil and Elektra do not sell and do not make for great movies. Period.

Quotable Quote: Audience perceptions of gender are not playing nearly as big a role as movie maker perceptions of gender.

 

[ariellem]

Making action or superhero movies for women starring women? There's no money in it ... rightly or wrongly, the perception is men just don't care about female heroes and seemingly neither do most women. It's just not a genre that appeals to most females.

Overall, that does seem to be true. That's why I'm saying the moviemakers should try to *change* this by being less formulaic.

As with education, eating patterns, and so many other things in life, this needs to start with things aimed at kids. Just about all of the action figures and other superhero things in the mainstream stores are aimed at the boys, and only at the boys.

My kids love Wonder Woman. One is into Batgirl and some other female superheroes all of a sudden. I went to Target to look for some action figures/fun sheets for them. In the entire action figure aisle, I found exactly ONE Wonder Woman figure (not several of that one, JUST that single package). Bought that one. I found exactly ONE Batgirl, and she was paired with a really ugly, lumpy, grey Batman. Didn't get that one. I found exactly ONE Supergirl comic paired with an action figure - but the figure was Lex Luthor! The back of the package showed that a Supergirl figure does exist, but she must be a modern incarnation - she was wearing a cropped tee and a miniskirt and not much else. The X-Men toys did have several boxes each of two women; I wasn't familiar with either, and neither are the kids, so I didn't buy those. The dozens of Superman Returns toys had no Loises (not that I liked the Lois in SR enough to buy these anyway, but I looked to see if they were there). [Were there ever Dean-and-Teri Superman and Lois figures, back in the 90s?] In the Lego/MegaBloks aisle, I found exactly ONE box with a Catwoman. Thing is, it came with a Batman in some big vehicle; didn't want that, so I didn't buy this either. Hot Wheels section: tons of superhero-themed cars, but none of the females - even though the backs of some packages showed that a few should exist. Bedding: Superman by himself, Batman by himself. No females, not even the Powerpuff Girls. No sign of any Spider-Girl or Spiderwoman or anything like that in any of those sections of the store.

It's not much different from other types of integration - quite a bit is cultural, not just genetic. When little girls grow up with 99% male superhero toys/role models AND the movies follow suit, it's no surprise that grown women aren't as interested in superhero movies as they could be. Change all of this, and a lot will change. But we can't wait a whole generation - we need to work across the age spectrum, starting NOW.

The Bride is definitely kick-@$$, but she's too violent for the younger kids (QT is in general). Aeon Flux and Elektra - don't know much about either heroine; couldn't say. Tank Girl was fun, but long ago and short-lived. On current/recent shows, the strong women are... The Cylon women (robots/hive) and President Laura, Seven (programmed/hive), ... Fine for older kids, but Galactica is way too adult for starter-heroine-worship. The Powerpuff Girls are amusing and are fine for the young set, but they're limited - and manufactured, so there's not a lot of human growth & development in their story. Even Leela on Futurama is out (she's not a superheroine, but she's a kick-@$$ female), as most of those eps are NOT appropriate for the younger kids.

As for the superheroines - Bat*girl*, Super*girl*, Spider*whatever*... all sidekicks to or offshoots of stronger, main male characters. Wonder Woman stands alone, thankfully. She was the first that I can think of. Storm is powerful in ability but hasn't been played up well in the X-Men comics and movies I've seen. Ariel (X-Men) - cool ability; in the movies, she didn't do much. Rogue is cool, but she gave up her abilities... Never liked Jean Grey/Phoenix much - *too* many problems. At least X-Men have several women to choose from. Yet nearly all of these have the fetishized outfits. Maybe it's too much to ask to have both...?