Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Well, in most cases, neither did i, but after reading 21 Superman graphic novels, i got more of view of were people were coming from, yet i still dont think any of the changes were that bad.

 

[Angeloz]

^Well, in most cases, neither did i, but after reading 21 Superman graphic novels, i got more of view of were people were coming from, yet i still dont think any of the changes were that bad.

I misunderstood what you meant. I thought it was the deleted scenes. 'Cos I've known about Superman for a long time and have some comics too. Though it's been awhile since I did serious collecting. I just get things here and there now.

Angeloz

 

[DrunkSquirrel]

Well i'll admit i hate unnessessary changes, but i found the majority or all of the one's in SR to be acceptable and understandable.

But thats just me .

Oh, I did not hate any of them. I thought some of them were a bit unnecessary, but I still enjoyed the movie a great deal.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I misunderstood what you meant. I thought it was the deleted scenes. 'Cos I've known about Superman for a long time and have some comics too. Though it's been awhile since I did serious collecting. I just get things here and there now.

Angeloz

I was never a serious Superman fan until after SR

Oh, I did not hate any of them. I thought some of them were a bit unnecessary, but I still enjoyed the movie a great deal.

Agreed, non of them changed the fact that i LOVE the movie a great deal.

 

[mego joe]

Oh i think it found its mark with plenty of both, a movie doesnt make almost $400 million world wide or break records in DVD rentals without resonating with plenty of people.

I think WB might disagree with you. Otherwise, why not already have greenlit a sequel? Why push JLA into production first when a Superman sequel already has so many pieces in place?

Perhaps, WB knows more than they've already let on about the perception of SR. Perhaps, they really did receive a bunch of negative letters.

It stands to reason that if SR had hit it's mark with the General AUdience, there wouldn't be a question of a sequel. Yet, Singer and WB were appologizing from almost the moment of release, promising, more action and 'wrath of khan' in the sequel. Horn said it underperformed financially.

There were a lot of people it didnt resonate with though as well.

And if they were equal amounts, that $391 million doesn't seem like so much anymore.

 

[mego joe]

Way too much analytical commentary on tis subject. It is a simple matter of "You can't please all the people all of the time" or "Different strokes for different folks". While I am not a typical comic book purist, I can accept changes to the mythos, where others can not.

I think that most comic fan can accept changes that make sense within the context of the character. However, the changes that people have problems with regarding SR seem to stem from changes that don't make sense and change the essence of the character.

Typically, the people hating the film have hated it since pre-production. Be it because they hat the director or it was not the actor they wanted in the lead role or whatever.

Myself included, I have found most people including 'haters' wanted to like the film and went to see it to give it a chance.

I personally liked the film a great deal, even with its flaws. Some people are more forgiving than others.

But there's only so much you can change and still have it be the character of Superman, right? SR crossed that line. I have maintained from day 1 that it was a different version of SUperman and that the essence of the character was fundamentally different from other interpretations.

I still feel that way and still don't see how anyone can view it as anything other than a different interpretation that has changed the essence of the character. Liking it or not liking it is a separate issue.

Personall, I didn't want to see a film that changed the essence of the character, if you're going to do that, why do a 'Superman' film at all, it's misleading to the audience. Secondly, it is almost guaranteed to backfire when it comes to the core fans, some will like some won't. ANd that's what SR did, it divided the core fan base.

At the heart of it all I find the most intriguing aspect of the SR 'dabate' to be that fans on opposite sides don't agree that the essence of the character has fundamentally been changed. At least that's what I can glean from the discussion on this board.

I can understnad HOw can fans with the same source material, the same comics and Donner/ Reeve films can be divided on liking or disliking the movie, but I can't understand on how fans are divided on the fact that SR has fundamentally changed the essence of the character.

 

[The Joker_1000]

I'm a huge Superman fan & I absolutely love this movie. It had it's flaws but overall it was a pretty good movie.

 

[Angeloz]

I think the reason people see things differently about Superman in "Superman Returns" is maybe some have more stringent opinions on what is and what isn't Superman. This works for them. Some of us aren't so judgemental (I'm not sure it's the right word) on it. That's not to say we don't have standards. Because speaking for myself - I do. But I'm also willing to see or read something and then judge it. Now you might do the same but you have a different judgement. That said I first liked the tragic romance possibilities from "Superman II". So when someone did confront me with the possibility of that not happening I didn't react well. I kind of reacted like you mego joe. So I really do understand where you're coming from. But I did think about it and while I'm not a fan of the possibility. I can now accept he may have been an idiot. But again we don't really know the details and there may have been things we didn't know. Although as I said I favour the tragic romance even if it's not true. But I've come to terms with other possibilities. Discussion here and elsewhere has done that. Maybe we'll see or maybe not on what happened. On whether there is a sequel or not.

Angeloz

 

[The Joker_1000]

I'm pretty sure there will be a sequel. I'd love for Brandon Routh to return as Superman, he did a pretty damn good job in SR.

 

[Angeloz]

I'm pretty sure there will be a sequel. I'd love for Brandon Routh to return as Superman, he did a pretty damn good job in SR.

I agree. I just want to add even if we have a sequel we still might not find out more about him leaving. 'Cos they may concentrate on the present rather than the past (I wanted to put that thought out generally).

Angeloz

 

[dr collossus]

I'm sorry but you're wrong. BR did not do a 'pretty damn good job' at all. Please, pinpoint one single scene in the entire film, one small piece of his performance, that was, memorable, classic, and iconic, or even one of the three? Whoever your favourite Superman actor is, any fan will admit that CR was a legend, who gave us a legendary performance (this isn't really an argument I want to get into again). Brandon Routh was ok, he did a passable job as Superman, and given a few years he could probably be very good (look at the difference in Reeve's performance in the screen tests, as used in the Donner cut, and his later performance in the actual footage). But his performance in Superman Returns was average; nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Angeloz]

I'm sorry but you're wrong. BR did not do a 'pretty damn good job' at all. Please, pinpoint one single scene in the entire film, one small piece of his performance, that was, memorable, classic, and iconic, or even one of the three? Whoever your favourite Superman actor is, any fan will admit that CR was a legend, who gave us a legendary performance (this isn't really an argument I want to get into again). Brandon Routh was ok, he did a passable job as Superman, and given a few years he could probably be very good (look at the difference in Reeve's performance in the screen tests, as used in the Donner cut, and his later performance in the actual footage). But his performance in Superman Returns was average; nothing more, nothing less.

That may be true for you. But some of us were amazed by what he did. I'll admit it was because I didn't expect him to be as good as he was. I loved Chris he introduced me to the character and made me love Superman. I didn't know if I could accept anyone else in the film role. It seems I could and did. I thought Brandon looked, acted and even spoke the part(s). He might not of had a lot of dialogue but bugger he can show what the character is feeling. I know it's not just me that thought it. But even if it was I'd still think that way. Because I felt that he convinced me he was Superman/Clark/Kal-El. If you don't feel it I don't think I can help you.

Angeloz

 

[Nightwing1977]

I'm sorry but you're wrong.

They're not wrong. It's their opinion they think he did good. When it come to opinion, it not wrong. But it's not right either. That like you thinking Welling is good, but others say you're wrong when it's your opinion. I think you should respect other people's opinions. Even if you don't agree with it.

BR did not do a 'pretty damn good job' at all.

Well, that your opinions. Others say otherwise.

Please, pinpoint one single scene in the entire film, one small piece of his performance, that was, memorable, classic, and iconic, or even one of the three?

When did any of them say his performance were memorable, classic, or iconic? Honestly, it's not fair you're trying to make everyone like what you do & not like what they do which you dislike. If they like his performance, don't shove your belief down their throats & tell them they are wrong. Again, that is pushing it.

Whoever your favourite Superman actor is, any fan will admit that CR was a legend, who gave us a legendary performance (this isn't really an argument I want to get into again).

Not every fan will admit CR is a legend. Some will say he is overrated, he was popular after he was paralyze(sp?), etc.

Brandon Routh was ok, he did a passable job as Superman, and given a few years he could probably be very good (look at the difference in Reeve's performance in the screen tests, as used in the Donner cut, and his later performance in the actual footage). But his performance in Superman Returns was average; nothing more, nothing less.

Why you said he did a passable job as Supes & could be very good in a few years when your eariler comments above said he didn't do a damn good job? Saying he did a passable job sound like you're saying he did a damn good job.

 

[dr collossus]

Why you said he did a passable job as Supes & could be very good in a few years when your eariler comments above said he didn't do a damn good job? Saying he did a passable job sound like you're saying he did a damn good job.

I'm not going to do a line-by-line reply, because frankly I can't be bothered. But there is a difference between liking something and actually thinking something is 'good' from a technical perspective. And in response to the above quote, saying something is passable is no the same as saying something is 'pretty damn good', just the same as saying that something is not 'pretty damn good' is not the same as saying it is poor. But I think this particular misunderstanding is just down to the language barrier.

 

[mego joe]

I think the reason people see things differently about Superman in "Superman Returns" is maybe some have more stringent opinions on what is and what isn't Superman. This works for them. Some of us aren't so judgemental (I'm not sure it's the right word) on it. That's not to say we don't have standards. Because speaking for myself - I do. But I'm also willing to see or read something and then judge it. Now you might do the same but you have a different judgement. That said I first liked the tragic romance possibilities from "Superman II". So when someone did confront me with the possibility of that not happening I didn't react well. I kind of reacted like you mego joe. So I really do understand where you're coming from. But I did think about it and while I'm not a fan of the possibility. I can now accept he may have been an idiot. But again we don't really know the details and there may have been things we didn't know. Although as I said I favour the tragic romance even if it's not true. But I've come to terms with other possibilities. Discussion here and elsewhere has done that. Maybe we'll see or maybe not on what happened. On whether there is a sequel or not.

Angeloz

Good post Angeloz.

 

[Angeloz]

Good post Angeloz.

Thanks.

Angeloz

 

[Steve Rogers]

What don't they like? The fact that it's a rehash/homage to Donner? Who cares? It's the start of the franchise, what better way to start out?

I don't think it was a rehash of what Donner did. That is one of the reasons I don't like it. Superman has always been open to interpertation. I just don't like Singer's version. Donner gave him some humanity. Debrah Joy Levine (Lois & Clark) gave him tons of humanity. Singer stripped it away and portrayed Superman as a God. I just didn't dig it.

Not enough action? Call me crazy, but I think the airplane sequence is one of the coolest things I've ever seen a movie.

There was action, but it was very cliched. I don't know how filmmakers can keep coming up with new ways for heroes to save the day. I'm not picking nits here. I think most action in super hero movies is cliched. In the realm of super hero movies, there is plenty of action in Superman Returns. I think what kills Superman Returns, and a lot of comic book movies, is that it relies on action. The story was a bore and the characterization was dismal. All that's left is the action, and no action sequence is good enough to carry an entire movie.

The suit? I mean, c'mon, it looks fine. Compare it to what Batman and the X-Men wear relative to the comics.

I wasn't a fan of the suit, but to not like a movie based on the suit is ridiculous. I doubt any fans knock the film soley because of the suit. But yeah, I didn't like it.

So what is it? To me, other than Lois Lane (Bosworth sucks) the casting is great, the production values and effects are MAGNIFICENT and the story is a classic Superman story. What do people hate? That he has a kid?

Other than Sam Huntington, this cast was a joke. No one had any emotion. Where was Perry White pounding his fist on his desk? Where was the screaming? Where was the over-the-topness that has come do define Perry over the years? It wasn't there. Frank Langella turned in the worst performance of both his and Perry's career. Lois and Superman? It felt like I was watching two people that hated each other pretend to be friends to not cause tension. What that does is cause a lot of tension. Maybe that was the intent for some of the earlier scenes, but I did not believe that Lois and Superman gave two s**ts about each other. If I can't believe in the characters, I can't buy the movie. Yes, the production value was magnificent, but so what? Just because they spent $300 million on the film doesn't mean they spent it wisely. The effects were great? Again, if the characters are not working, I don't care what blows up, falls down, flys through the air. If Superman Returns is a classic Superman story, then I am not a Superman fan. This allegory between Superman and Christ annoyed and alienated me. I want to see Clark being a human being. I know he isn't one, but he was raised as one. That's what I love about the Lois and Clark TV show. They focus on Clark the man rather than Superman the hero. Superman Returns focused on Superman the God. Sorry, does not appeal to me. I don't hate that he has a kid. Lois and Clark in the TV show or in the comics should have children. But in a movie where he is portrayed as this larger than life God like being, it just doesn't fit in.

Plus, the concept was beyond stupid. First of all, would Superman, the Superman that adopts humanity as his children that need protection as protrayed in Superman Returns, really abandon them to fly to a planet that he knows does not exist anymore? Huh? Plus, once he's near Krypton he's away from Earth's yellow sun. His strgenth and powers would have worn off and he would have died under the red sun out there in the vacuum of space. Sorry, I guess that was my inner fanboy there.

Sorry, I'm not the hugest Superman fan in the world, but I loved this movie and it seemed like a fantastic adaptation to me. What don't people like about it?

We just don't see eye to eye. Maybe it was a fantastic adaptation (but as a film it was sub-par) but it was an adaptation that did not appeal to me.

 

[Angeloz]

You do know he travelled in a space ship?

Angeloz

 

[Super Kal]

I don't think it was a rehash of what Donner did.

if you actually watched both side by side, you'd see that you're wrong

 

[Steve Rogers]

if you actually watched both side by side, you'd see that you're wrong

It's 3:30 in the morning and I am sick to my stomach, so I don't want to argue. So let me just say, no.

 

[Porygon]

if you actually watched both side by side, you'd see that you're wrong

What you're seeing is a continuation of themes, not a rehash.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I think WB might disagree with you. Otherwise, why not already have greenlit a sequel? Why push JLA into production first when a Superman sequel already has so many pieces in place?

Perhaps, WB knows more than they've already let on about the perception of SR. Perhaps, they really did receive a bunch of negative letters.

It stands to reason that if SR had hit it's mark with the General AUdience, there wouldn't be a question of a sequel. Yet, Singer and WB were appologizing from almost the moment of release, promising, more action and 'wrath of khan' in the sequel. Horn said it underperformed financially.

At the moment every movie is being questioned because of the strike, SR is the 6th or 7th highest grossing CB movie since Blade re-started the craze, thats not a bad place to be. And dont forget the length of the movie and the fact that itr was a first in the franchise.

It makes me laugh when people say SR was a failure, when there are so many movies out there tha would KILL to make $390 million world-wide.

Plus, neither WB nor ourselves have ANY CLUE as to how SR resonated with everyone who saw it, unless they survey everyone and i can say with confidence they havent.

At this moment in time they obviously think a JL movie can make more money for them, but this is the studio that greenlight Catwoman.

And if they were equal amounts, that $391 million doesn't seem like so much anymore.

Your kidding me right? See above for more.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. BR did not do a 'pretty damn good job' at all. Please, pinpoint one single scene in the entire film, one small piece of his performance, that was, memorable, classic, and iconic, or even one of the three? Whoever your favourite Superman actor is, any fan will admit that CR was a legend, who gave us a legendary performance (this isn't really an argument I want to get into again). Brandon Routh was ok, he did a passable job as Superman, and given a few years he could probably be very good (look at the difference in Reeve's performance in the screen tests, as used in the Donner cut, and his later performance in the actual footage). But his performance in Superman Returns was average; nothing more, nothing less.

NO, no-one is wrong, they just disagree with you, i have a lot of respect for CR, but IMO Brandon was better than him.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

What you're seeing is a continuation of themes, not a rehash.

EXACTLY, well said.

 

[dr collossus]

NO, no-one is wrong, they just disagree with you, i have a lot of respect for CR, but IMO Brandon was better than him.

Brandon? On first name terms are you? I guess that explains why you sing his praises so much...

But then again:

I was never a serious Superman fan until after SR

so really your opinion is not based on an actor faithfully representing and emodying the characteristics that make Superman what he is. You're just a fan of a particular film who happens to have become interested in related material. That's not really a context for comparison.

 

[Super Kal]

It's 3:30 in the morning and I am sick to my stomach, so I don't want to argue. So let me just say, no.

and I'll just say yes, because it eats the awesomeness of STM and regurgitates it back into a steaming pile of depressing crap.