Why I want everything to revert

[Mr. Dent]

Not just Fantastic Four, or just Spider-Man, or just X-Men, but everything. I want them all to revert. A year ago, I was okay with Spider-Man and X-Men staying where they were and only wanted FF back with Marvel for Silver Surfer and other cosmic characters. I was perfectly fine with X-Men and Spider-Man existing in their own, harmless universes, and still am. But my position on whether that "harmless" part is true has evolved over the past couple months as I'm starting to see what Fox and Sony are trying to do.

In simple terms, in a worst case scenario, what Fox and Sony are doing right now could be detrimental to everything Marvel Studios has built and to the CBM genre itself. It's one thing to buckle down on a franchise a commit to releasing movies every couple years, it's another to try and stretch it completely thin while putting out mediocre products and having it effect movies MS and WB put out. Sony is trying to force villain movies out of the Spider-Man franchise, that FF reboot looks like a disaster waiting to happen, and now Fox is talking about putting out X-Men related TV shows. It's too much. I used to say that CMB/superhero fatigue was a myth, and I still believe that, but at a certain point, when there's 20 superhero shows on television and 15 superhero movies coming out a year, people will start lumping them all together. And out of those 30+ projects, there is no way that all of them will actually be good, and a couple bad missteps could hurt the entire genre.

Just look at TASM2. It's looking to be yet another lukewarmly received Spider-Man movie and is setting up to be the lowest grossing SM film so far, even after all the marketing Sony put into it. This kind of performance just gives naysayers more ammo to claim that SH films are repetitive and generic and prematurely write off other films of its kind in the future. That kind of stuff DOES eventually bleed into the mainstream, and with what Fox and Sony are trying to do right now, I really see it happening soon.

This isn't about wanting to see these character in the same universe as the MCU, it's genuinely concerning that Sony and Fox are trying to stretch these things out far beyond their natural limit to try and get a cash grab. If Marvel had the rights to all of it, they would not be stretching the properties so thin and milking them for all its worth. This whole bubble that is forming right now is really only heading in one direction in my eyes, and it's the implosion of the Spider-Man and X-Men franchises due to oversaturation. I just hope it doesn't affect the entire genre Batman and Robin style. :/

 

[Harley2004]

Let Disney have everything.

It does look like they went too far with certain aspects of the ASM2, being too over the top and campy. Nevertheless Sony and Fox, will take risks that Marvel will not. They are fine where they are. Spider-Man, should stay on his own. X-men is too dark for Marvel, they are afraid to kill anybody. The only one that would be better off is FF in MCU. It's not going to happen though.

 

[Mr. Dent]

I think you missed my point. Them taking these risks, might be cool for us, but if they're going to end up being bad movies and TV shows it's only going to serve to tire people out quicker on all of this stuff.

Also, this "X-Men is too dark for Marvel" crap is ridiculous. The X-Men from the comics are no darker than any other big Marvel property. Hell Doctor Strange and the Inhumans are "darker" than the X-Men. Don't know where this idea of there being an abnormally high rate of killing in X-Men comics is coming from.

 

[Harley2004]

I think you missed my point. Them taking these risks, might be cool for us, but if they're going to end up being bad movies and TV shows it's only going to serve to tire people out quicker on all of this stuff.

With all these shows by every company that seems inevitable. Something like Agents of SHIELD and and something very formulaic like, Thor the Dark World will "tire" people out of this a lot more than something like x-men first class or a movie from the point of view of the villains. That's the kind of stuff that is needed.

 

[Mr. Dent]

With all these shows by every company that seems inevitable. Something like Agents of SHIELD and and something very formulaic like, Thor the Dark World will "tire" people out of this a lot more than something like x-men first class or a movie from the point of view of the villains. That's the kind of stuff that is needed.

I never said Marvel Studios have n not put out mediocre stuff, but if it were all compartmentalized, there would be less mediocrity put out in general. Regardless of your own opinion, Marvel Studios has not put out a measurably bad film yet. I have more confidence in them than Sony, and definitely more so than Fox. And yeah you can throw out First Class, that does not erase the two film prior to it, or the average at best Wolverine movie.

Putting out a movie about the villains is interesting, that doesn't mean it's a smart idea. It's really reaching, and if it's bad it will only serve as more oversaturation. The market cannot sustain all these projects coming out from all of Marvel, Fox, and Sony. Fox and Sony are trying to stretch these things farther than they can go, especially Sony. the market will eventually self correct itself and imo it's already starting with TASM2's performance. I just hope that it doesn't spread to the entire genre. Too much of something is not good, and we're about to get way too many superhero properties at the same time in the coming years.

 

[The Overlord]

But see here is the thing, if Marvel had the rights to X-Men and Spider-Man, would they have just gone with the sure thing and made movies about them, rather then going with more obscure properties like Guardians of the Galaxy? Would Marvel have taken as many risks if they could have just made sure fire movies with Spider-Man and the X-Men? Would Marvel have had the time and money to make something like Guardians of the Galaxy if they were trying to create ongoing X-Men and Spider-Man franchises as well?



Plus let's face it, since the 80s, X-Men had trouble fitting in with the rest of the Marvel Universe? Why do people in the Marvel universe cheer the FF and then try and throw rocks at random mutants? How does that make sense? X-Men works better in a separate universe?

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think the X-Men are fine at FOX. They only do 1 X-Men film a year, and even if they do shows, I don't think it will become too much. Most shows don't last long, so it is not like we will have 6-7 active MCU/X-Men shows at a time. I think as their own universe, X-Men works fine.

As for Spidey, I haven't seen TASM2 yet. But, TASM didn't overtly impress me. It was decent at best. I'd like him back at Marvel, as long as they don't shoe string him in the Avengers. FF looks to be a train wreck, so I want them back too. Plus, they're important to the cosmic portion of Marvel, and who doesn't want MCU Doom, Galactus, and Surfer!

 

[Shikamaru]

I don't think the problem with the Spider-Man films are oversaturation, but simply a lack of "keeping up" for lack of better term. In a post-TDK/Avengers world, the bar has been set really high. A Spider-Man film can't just be "pretty good" anymore. It needs to be great. It needs to be on par with Nolan's Batman and the MCU's best efforts. Spider-Man is, after all, a top level property on par with those.

I haven't seen TASM 2 yet though so I can't judge it. But if TASM 2 and TASM 3 are both great films, putting out a film every 2 years wouldn't be an issue.

 

[jonathancrane]

I don't think the problem with the Spider-Man films are oversaturation, but simply a lack of "keeping up" for lack of better term. In a post-TDK/Avengers world, the bar has been set really high. A Spider-Man film can't just be "pretty good" anymore. It needs to be great. It needs to be on par with Nolan's Batman and the MCU's best efforts. Spider-Man is, after all, a top level property on par with those.

I haven't seen TASM 2 yet though so I can't judge it. But if TASM 2 and TASM 3 are both great films, putting out a film every 2 years wouldn't be an issue.

Yup.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm not feeling it. More diversity in the market is a good thing. I'd hate to have the six franchises coming out of Marvel Studios to be: X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Avengers, Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy. No Captain America franchise? Thor? Dr. Strange. Boo to that.

 

[Mr. Dent]

I'm not feeling it. More diversity in the market is a good thing. I'd hate to have the six franchises coming out of Marvel Studios to be: X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Avengers, Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy. No Captain America franchise? Thor? Dr. Strange. Boo to that.

I absolutely do not buy this idea that just because they get Spier-Man and X-Men back they will stop making new properties. It's totally a false worry. Kevin Feige has specifically said he wants to keep things fresh and do new stuff, which is why we're getting Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, GOTG, etc. It had nothing to do with having nothing else. They didn't have to do those movies, they wanted to. Even if they get X-Men and Spider-Man back, they will not all of a sudden stop making other movies. Feige says they want to continue expanding the MCU into new corners, that would be the case even if they had the others back.

 

[DrCosmic]

I absolutely do not buy this idea that just because they get Spier-Man and X-Men back they will stop making new properties. It's totally a false worry. Kevin Feige has specifically said he wants to keep things fresh and do new stuff, which is why we're getting Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, GOTG, etc. It had nothing to do with having nothing else. They didn't have to do those movies, they wanted to. Even if they get X-Men and Spider-Man back, they will not all of a sudden stop making other movies. Feige says they want to continue expanding the MCU into new corners, that would be the case even if they had the others back.

Help me not buy into it, then, because I think their desire to do fresh things is part of why the have no interest in retreading Spider-Man and X-Men. Let's say they had all the properties right now, or got them back last year. How can anyone possibly do a Phase 3 schedule with two films a year that includes Spidey, X-Men, all the current properties, and new properties that doesn't push Avengers 3 (and all sequels) back?

Now it's possible that Marvel may somehow be able to do 3-4 films a year if the financing comes together and their movies maintain a large margin of success. That brings up the problem I was first referring to. Basically, if the vast majority of superhero movies (4 a year would be the vast majority) go through Kevin Feige's hands, then they all start to look the same. Imagine if Iron Man, Incredible Hulk, Captain America and Thor had all come out in the same year. With nothing to break them up the patterns between them become glaring. Now superhero movies become largely predictable, this is on top of the natural loss of quality that comes with dividing resources. Homogenization. The same thing that's happening with the big 2 in comics. This is the same thing that happens in every industry when there's only one or two companies controlling the entire market, no competition, no need for risks or new ideas, and thus, stagnation.

 

[Visualiza]

All I want is Namor. He would shake the MCU up in the most unimaginable ways. FF would be nice too, but the rest can stay put.

 

[The.Brotherhood]

For everyone else here and for the whole other bunch of threads out there, like I've said before, for me most of these rights belongs to this company and this company etc. is a BLESSING in disguise for marvel because let's face it, if they have the X-Men and the Spiderman franchises, those two alone will eat up most of their long term goals for releasing films (I might be wrong at some aspects) and at the other end of the line, how would they focus on their other tier characters and franchises (inhumans, gotg, dr. strange, etc). So all in all everything is FINE but if we want everything to belong in one universe and I BELIEVE that x-men and spidey in the MCU will be magical (beacuse MS know how to treat and have proper care for their own creation than sony / fox) so to have a final verdict, my cents goes out to just have MARVEL STUDIOS have "RIGHTS SHARES" idk if that's the right term, meaning they can create or do their own versions of X-men franchises and Spiderman franchises while fox and sony put theirs out too, throw in the fantastic four, namor and man-thing. The only issue there would be, there's gonna be more cyclops, wolverine, spiderman and it will be confusing and it will have cons for the cbm as a whole, the best thing they can do is incorporate little but important things to the MCU like they can finally acknowledge the term "mutant", all the cosmic connections and everything...in regards to viewing and for all my care would only goes out to the studio that will put out the BEST QUALITY of their own adaptation of the x-men, spiderman, ff, etc. (no doubt it will be MS!).

 

[MakeMinesMarvel]

If Marvel had the rights for everything than X-Men, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four would take precedent over Captain America, Thor, Antman, and whatevers not Avengers or Ironman

 

[Mr. Dent]

Help me not buy into it, then, because I think their desire to do fresh things is part of why the have no interest in retreading Spider-Man and X-Men. Let's say they had all the properties right now, or got them back last year. How can anyone possibly do a Phase 3 schedule with two films a year that includes Spidey, X-Men, all the current properties, and new properties that doesn't push Avengers 3 (and all sequels) back?

Now it's possible that Marvel may somehow be able to do 3-4 films a year if the financing comes together and their movies maintain a large margin of success. That brings up the problem I was first referring to. Basically, if the vast majority of superhero movies (4 a year would be the vast majority) go through Kevin Feige's hands, then they all start to look the same. Imagine if Iron Man, Incredible Hulk, Captain America and Thor had all come out in the same year. With nothing to break them up the patterns between them become glaring. Now superhero movies become largely predictable, this is on top of the natural loss of quality that comes with dividing resources. Homogenization. The same thing that's happening with the big 2 in comics. This is the same thing that happens in every industry when there's only one or two companies controlling the entire market, no competition, no need for risks or new ideas, and thus, stagnation.

I guess you're missing the part where part of Marvel's strategy is literally expanding the MCU into new territories to keep things fresh and explore different genres. To do that they have to use different properties. This would be the case REGARDLESS of if they had those other three back. They would not be forced to put out X-Men and Spider-Man films every couple years like Fox and Sony are. You guys are just assuming they will put priority over them like those franchises are still setting the box office on fire. They're not, and Marvel have already proven to themselves that they can make characters just as successful as those films. imo Marvel would not feel anymore inclined to put X-Men over Inhumans and vice versa. X-Men is not some big heavy hitter at the box office that absolutely has to be given precedence, I don't understand why you guys are thinking it is. It's highest grossing movie has not made more than $500m yet.

There's a better case to be made that Marvel should put out Spider-Man films every couple years, but that hardly means they will be hand tied from doing other franchises. If worse comes to worse and they need more resources they can outsource Spider-Man films to another studio dedicated to putting out Spidey movies.

This whole thing is not as simple as they get them back and they just drop all of their other characters. They value all the characters and it is literally in their business plan to continue expanding and making more into franchises. If it were true Marvel didn't want to use more characters then they'd just rest on the ones they've done so far and call it a day, but they're not. Would some franchises possibly get pushed down? Yes. Does that mean they'd NEVER get to them? No.

If Marvel had the rights for everything than X-Men, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four would take precedent over Captain America, Thor, Antman, and whatevers not Avengers or Ironman

No, they wouldn't, especially now that both of those franchises are outgrossing all three of them, nearly combined.

 

[Mr. Dent]

you guys are acting like Marvel would still have the mentality of if this was before 2008. If they had STARTED OUT having all the properties would they have been more reluctant to spread out? Probably. But they've already proven they can make franchises out of this stuff. It's a different world not from 6 years ago.

 

[DrCosmic]

I guess you're missing the part where part of Marvel's strategy is literally expanding the MCU into new territories to keep things fresh and explore different genres. To do that they have to use different properties. This would be the case REGARDLESS of if they had those other three back. They would not be forced to put out X-Men and Spider-Man films every couple years like Fox and Sony are. You guys are just assuming they will put priority over them like those franchises are still setting the box office on fire. They're not, and Marvel have already proven to themselves that they can make characters just as successful as those films. imo Marvel would not feel anymore inclined to put X-Men over Inhumans and vice versa. X-Men is not some big heavy hitter at the box office that absolutely has to be given precedence, I don't understand why you guys are thinking it is. It's highest grossing movie has not made more than $500m yet.

There's a better case to be made that Marvel should put out Spider-Man films every couple years, but that hardly means they will be hand tied from doing other franchises. If worse comes to worse and they need more resources they can outsource Spider-Man films to another studio dedicated to putting out Spidey movies.

This whole thing is not as simple as they get them back and they just drop all of their other characters. They value all the characters and it is literally in their business plan to continue expanding and making more into franchises. If it were true Marvel didn't want to use more characters then they'd just rest on the ones they've done so far and call it a day, but they're not. Would some franchises possibly get pushed down? Yes. Does that mean they'd NEVER get to them? No.

So what does that look like? What does it mean if the Thor franchise or the Captain Marvel franchise gets pushed down? We get those films in what? 2030? That's why I asked you to make a schedule, because "pushed down" sounds real nice until you realize that Avengers 3 would come out in 2020 and Iron Man 4 in 2022. That's the part I'm missing, I'm sure they would want to, but that doesn't make it possible.

This is on top of the issue of homogenizing the genre.

 

[Hyde]

Out of the three properties at other studios, I want Spidey and FF back. The latter would fit perfectly in the MCU and would probably benefit the universe with just their presence. Plus, even though I liked Trank's previous superhero movie, the reboot isn't exactly filling me with confidence so far.

You say it's harmful to the genre for Fox and Sony to be creating spin-offs, but that's really only the case for Sony. Fox put out X-Men Origins: Wolverine in 2009 (which seems like decades ago now), back when the MCU only had two films to it's name. The X-Men franchise actually works for spin-offs and TV series', because it's filled with hundreds of different heroes, villains, anti-heroes etc. It's so expansive and huge that it would cause more problems for the MCU if they got the rights back.

Really, Sony are the ones that are going to hurt CBMs as a whole. They're trying to stretch out one hero into some huge megafranchise, when Spider-Man was never intended for that. You could get away with a Venom movie because he's had/has a solo series or two in the comics before, and that spin-off has been in development since Spider-Man 3. But nobody wants to see a Sinister Six movie. God forbid they actually try and make a trilogy out of that. If they continue doing this with other heroes/villains (Electro: The Movie! *shudders*) then that is what's going to turn audiences off, not The Wolverine 3 or whatever.

 

[DrCosmic]

^Well, the Sinister Six have starred in mini series several times. They were good. Several of Spider-Man's villains have had solos before. They were generally good, some were award winning and critically acclaimed. There's a reason there are about as many Spidey books as X-Men books.

 

[KangConquers]

I'm not feeling it. More diversity in the market is a good thing. I'd hate to have the six franchises coming out of Marvel Studios to be: X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Avengers, Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy. No Captain America franchise? Thor? Dr. Strange. Boo to that.

At this point, Captain America and Thor are individually bigger than the X-Men and Fantastic 4 franchises, so I don't think that would be a problem. People will hem and haw at that, but the proof is in the pudding.

Show me a $650 M grossing X-Men film? Oh, right there is none. Show me a $400 M grossing F4 film? Oh, right...and while it's easy to say that Disney/ Marvel could elevate those properties, in the case of X-Men, I think they've reached a saturation point in the pop-culture consciousness.

 

[drod1985]

I just want Spidey in the MCU, I think there's huge potential in that.

While I have some gripes with FoX-Men, its character lineup is so robust that it can continue on as its own universe. The Wolverine was fantastic and I actually warmed up to DOFP's last trailer. I'm indifferent as to what happens with FF, but I actually think I prefer them being separate from the MCU.

 

[DrCosmic]

At this point, Captain America and Thor are individually bigger than the X-Men and Fantastic 4 franchises, so I don't think that would be a problem. People will hem and haw at that, but the proof is in the pudding.

Show me a $650 M grossing X-Men film? Oh, right there is none. Show me a $400 M grossing F4 film? Oh, right...and while it's easy to say that Disney/ Marvel could elevate those properties, in the case of X-Men, I think they've reached a saturation point in the pop-culture consciousness.

Agreed. It just seems like all the reasons that Marvel Studios wouldn't sideline the current MCU are reasons why they wouldn't bother to reacquire the other properties in the first place. I mean, who would be happy if the properties reverted and Marvel Studios treated Spidey and X-Men like they are Black Panther and Captain Marvel?

 

[Hmarrs]

Not just Fantastic Four, or just Spider-Man, or just X-Men, but everything. I want them all to revert. A year ago, I was okay with Spider-Man and X-Men staying where they were and only wanted FF back with Marvel for Silver Surfer and other cosmic characters. I was perfectly fine with X-Men and Spider-Man existing in their own, harmless universes, and still am. But my position on whether that "harmless" part is true has evolved over the past couple months as I'm starting to see what Fox and Sony are trying to do.

In simple terms, in a worst case scenario, what Fox and Sony are doing right now could be detrimental to everything Marvel Studios has built and to the CBM genre itself. It's one thing to buckle down on a franchise a commit to releasing movies every couple years, it's another to try and stretch it completely thin while putting out mediocre products and having it effect movies MS and WB put out. Sony is trying to force villain movies out of the Spider-Man franchise, that FF reboot looks like a disaster waiting to happen, and now Fox is talking about putting out X-Men related TV shows. It's too much. I used to say that CMB/superhero fatigue was a myth, and I still believe that, but at a certain point, when there's 20 superhero shows on television and 15 superhero movies coming out a year, people will start lumping them all together. And out of those 30+ projects, there is no way that all of them will actually be good, and a couple bad missteps could hurt the entire genre.

Just look at TASM2. It's looking to be yet another lukewarmly received Spider-Man movie and is setting up to be the lowest grossing SM film so far, even after all the marketing Sony put into it. This kind of performance just gives naysayers more ammo to claim that SH films are repetitive and generic and prematurely write off other films of its kind in the future. That kind of stuff DOES eventually bleed into the mainstream, and with what Fox and Sony are trying to do right now, I really see it happening soon.

This isn't about wanting to see these character in the same universe as the MCU, it's genuinely concerning that Sony and Fox are trying to stretch these things out far beyond their natural limit to try and get a cash grab. If Marvel had the rights to all of it, they would not be stretching the properties so thin and milking them for all its worth. This whole bubble that is forming right now is really only heading in one direction in my eyes, and it's the implosion of the Spider-Man and X-Men franchises due to oversaturation. I just hope it doesn't affect the entire genre Batman and Robin style. :/

There basically being Pimped out while I agree with you this I disagree on what you say about Marvel because I believe their doing the same thing just look at how Iron man Got Pimped out more or less like Wolverine however since Fox and Sony have such a smaller scale of Characters to work with its more noticiable..Dc does the same with Batman and Superman.The thing is wherever the money is maximize it juice it milk it.Unfortunately its the nature of the Beast.I really dont think Marvel would have done it too differently.Just look at how Marvel Pimps out Wolvering in the Comic Books Spiderman too.I cant stand Wolverine anymore because of it.To what I once truly believed was a very likable character.I can only stomach him in movies now and even thats getting to me.

I just really enjoy Jackmans portrayal of him maybe because he humanizes him to me where in the comics hes like a god in terms of powers and such.Happned to me with Superman back in the day when he was pushing planets and crap like that.Now that Disney owns them just wait for the exploitation.
Think about it how do you think Marvel woud have handeled the X-men situation..?Because what happened in the movies is not too different then what happened in comics...Wolverine got all the play Cyclops was turned into a second rate character the love story between Wolverine and Jean is sickening already...He loses his claws then gains his claws..he is loner and feels way to sorry for himself kinda ofa selfish guy if you ask me yada yada yada..Soooo whats different again???

Sony Spiderman story Goblin goblin goblin multiple heroes atacking Spider you can see that on almost any comic book cover for the past 30 somthing years..

And If I see Batmans Origin ONE MORE FlIPPING TIME??? Ima scream so help me!!!

It is vain repetetion theres no real character development I mean yeah in the Batman trilogy they attempted to explore a little into Batman but just when it seemed like they were on to somthing they cut the run.

Anyway in the long run Fox and Sony have actually for the most part been on point with the Genre as far as followng the comics there just following Marvels formula soooo....

Marvel may be more responsible then Fox and Sony if you think about it.

 

[Eddie]

Let Disney have everything.

It does look like they went too far with certain aspects of the ASM2, being too over the top and campy. Nevertheless Sony and Fox, will take risks that Marvel will not. They are fine where they are. Spider-Man, should stay on his own. X-men is too dark for Marvel, they are afraid to kill anybody. The only one that would be better off is FF in MCU. It's not going to happen though.

First bold: Marvel is making a movie featuring Rocket Raccoon and Groot as leads. Ant-Man is coming, and it's from a director that has one comic book movie under his belt that underperformed. In general the MCU was a gigantic risk from the beginning. Nearly every film featured risky/unexpected casting, The Avengers was not a guaranteed hit in early development, and they regularly make unexpected choices on directors. And did I mention the talking Raccoon whose power is he shoots you? I'm pretty sure that's a risk in this and many other universes.

Second bold: X-Men is too dark? How is X-Men any more "dark" than a weapons dealer trying to atone for his past? As for Marvel being afraid to kill anyone, [BLACKOUT]tell that to Frigga, Yensin, Sitwell, and Victoria Hand.[/BLACKOUT]