Why isn`t the religious structure of marvel vastly different to ours?

[Iceburgeruk]

We all know the marvel universe is designed to always resemble our universe. But at the same time they don`t try to tackle the issues that their own heroes would create. The largest being the existence of aliens, demons and mythical gods.

The arguement has been put forward that people would just assume that they were superheroes but surely the existence of heroes would simply prove to religious people that there is a supernatural world beyond what we know?

Surely considering that thor and hercules walk around amongst mortals whilst jesus doesnt in marvel U then there would have been a substantial migration back to the old religions. I mean faith is one thing, but thor is physically there in the marvel u that would surely seem more convincing to many.

The obvious existance of aliens would surely qwell the ranks of ufo fanatics, which should mean that marvel should have gained a alien idolising based religion to rival the big conventional religions.

The most damaging effect of the marvel universe`s superheroes to the religious community would prob be that in times of need the world is saved by supermen, or ancient gods or aliens but never by jesus or any of the otehr conventional deities. This of course would be no proof of their non-existence in the same way that the fact that just because jesus doesn`t pop down to see everyone every so often doesn`t proove he doesn`t exist. But surelt there must be a lot more doubt about it in the marvel universe as everything imaginable has turned up in front of the people of earth except the gods their revere.

 

[Anubis]

They did tackle stuff like that. Thor pretty much from Death of Odin on to the Reigning ring any bells?

Secondly, these "gods" and "demons" and stuff only recently have shown up. As far as the MU is concerned, theres still been 2,000 some odd years of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. That sorta thing isn't gonna suddenly go away within a 13 to 15 year span cuz some *****e bag says he's a god. And more importantly, you forget that we, the reader have the God's eye view of stuff. We know that Asgard is real. We know that Mephisto is real and rules over a portion of hell along with other demonic beings. The average *****e bag in, I don't know, Oakland,California, or Cairo,Egypt, or I don't know, Brighton,Great Britain? Not so much.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

They did tackle stuff like that. Thor pretty much from Death of Odin on to the Reigning ring any bells?

Secondly, these "gods" and "demons" and stuff only recently have shown up. As far as the MU is concerned, theres still been 2,000 some odd years of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. That sorta thing isn't gonna suddenly go away within a 13 to 15 year span.

Well it prob wouldn`t go away completly at all but my point is surely things which are mostly small faiths in our world (ufo-religions, norse and greek revivalists, believers of demons and magic) would due to the blatant proof of what they have a religion about would have become large religions perhaps almost large enough to be a threat to the standard religions.

In our universe, someone is open minded to belive in aliens. They are furthermore deemed deluded or a bit odd to belive in divine god like aliens. In the same way, greek/norse revivalists are seen as quaint cults to defunct religions. And demon/magic belief is mostly viewed as nonsense.

But in a world where galactus turned up in new york, demons have attacked before and have been seen, werewolves and vampire run loose and the greek and norse gods walk amongst us these niche beliefs would gain a lot of weight. Because although many would discount thor as being a superhero his flesh and blood presence on earth at least suggests the notion that he might actually be a bonafide god on earth.

 

[Anubis]

For awhile, the Thorists did become a large enough threat to the other standard religions that they felt the need to take down Asgard and the Mighty Thor.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

And more importantly, you forget that we, the reader have the God's eye view of stuff. We know that Asgard is real. We know that Mephisto is real and rules over a portion of hell along with other demonic beings. The average *****e bag in, I don't know, Oakland,California, or Cairo,Egypt, or I don't know, Brighton,Great Britain? Not so much.

True but the flimsiest evidence has led to people joining cults or supporting a set of strange beliefs (bigfoot, crop circles and various wierd cults being evidence to that) so with the amount of sightings and evidence present in the marvel U you would at leats get a fairly large migration to the fringe religions which now seem to have evidence behind them. I mean some people pretty much believe David Blaine has supernatural abilities so how much of a stretch is it to believe that easily convinced people looking for a religion would flock to idolize a superhero who clals himself thor, who looks roughly how people would imagine thor to look and seems to have all the powers thor was supposed to?

 

[Anubis]

That's the thing, they did. What you're talking about? Has already been addressed. In numerous comics, from all over. Hell, people where worshiping Superman for awhile and they did comics dealing with that. They still worship Supes in the 31st century.

It's just that, you gotta understand that faith is a strong thing. Hell just as there are people that that will actually believe that some dude with a Hammer is a God, there are just as many that will see him as merely an angel, or a demon sent to turn them away from their God or some crazy bulls**t. Faith is crazy. There is a portion of the population that see what's going on in their world and it has forced them to re-think all that they believe, but just like in real life, the majority probably will continue to believe what they've been believing, dispite the hard evidence. That's just the way people are.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

That's the thing, they did. What you're talking about? Has already been addressed. In numerous comics, from all over. Hell, people where worshiping Superman for awhile and they did comics dealing with that. They still worship Supes in the 31st century.

It's just that, you gotta understand that faith is a strong thing. Hell just as there are people that that will actually believe that some dude with a Hammer is a God, there are just as many that will see him as merely an angel, or a demon sent to turn them away from their God or some crazy bulls**t. Faith is crazy. There is a portion of the population that see what's going on in their world and it has forced them to re-think all that they believe, but just like in real life, the majority probably will continue to believe what they've been believing, dispite the hard evidence. That's just the way people are.

True. But I`d think that at the very least Norse and greek religions would have risen back to being proper mainstream religions again. They should show it in some back ground moment in a comic, with all the heads of the churches at some event and with an ancient greek religios leader and a norse religious leader in attendance alongside the pope and archbishop of canterbury and so forth.

I just think that it should be referenced a lil more than just the occassional deranged fanatcis saying they love thor. I`d like to see a more organised worldwide moevemt formin even though Thor doesn`t want to be worshipped. It could make a great subtext. Especially if they had that in contrast hercules actually loves being worshipped. lol.

 

[Manic]

Considering how many classic Greek tragedy tales basically go something like "the gods screw with humans because they're bored, and the humans press on despite their all-powerful cruelty," I doubt the Marvel Universe would see a resurgence of classic Greek religion.

 

[fifthfiend]

I dunno, I find the honesty appealing.

 

[Manic]

Yeah, but it's so honest, it works as a deterrent. At least most other religions have the decency to sprinkle their tales of unrelenting godwrath tragedy with the occasional story of their gods being incredibly kind. Sure, God may have killed Job's entire family, diseased him, took away his good looks, and bankrupted him for the sake of winning a bet, but he gave him back everything (except for his original family) in the end.

Meanwhile, you've got the story of Odysseus, who was stuck at sea for a whomping ten years just because he attacked a giant who tried to eat him, and the giant cried to Poseidon for revenge. Oh, sure, Odysseus may have eventually made it home, but he found his house crowded with a bunch of loitering men who were trying to boink his wife. You know, it probably would've been less of a blow if Penelope had just remarried, rather than spend twenty years becoming a sugar-momma to a dozen different guys.

 

[fifthfiend]

Well see that's what I like. Most of your modern gods, you're supposed to act like they're doing some kind of favor by ****ing you over. With the Greeks it's like, nope, they're just ****ers. You have to deal with it, but you're not really expected to like it.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, but it's so honest, it works as a deterrent. At least most other religions have the decency to sprinkle their tales of unrelenting godwrath tragedy with the occasional story of their gods being incredibly kind. Sure, God may have killed Job's entire family, diseased him, took away his good looks, and bankrupted him for the sake of winning a bet, but he gave him back everything (except for his original family) in the end.

Meanwhile, you've got the story of Odysseus, who was stuck at sea for a whomping ten years just because he attacked a giant who tried to eat him, and the giant cried to Poseidon for revenge. Oh, sure, Odysseus may have eventually made it home, but he found his house crowded with a bunch of loitering men who were trying to boink his wife. You know, it probably would've been less of a blow if Penelope had just remarried, rather than spend twenty years becoming a sugar-momma to a dozen different guys.

I thought the reason he was stuck out at sea because he didn't pray to Posiden before he left for home or some such petty s**t.

Anyway, I've always seen the story of Job as making God out to be a total *******. I don't care if he got double all his stuff back, God let the devil kill his family. His Family. Maybe back then they didn't care too much about their families like we do now, I don't know the thought process behind that. But by todays standards, that was some really A-hole s**t to do. And for a bet no less. I remember hearing that in Sunday School when I was a kid and I asked the teacher, " Wow, so, am I the only one that thinks God's a jerk for allowing that to happen??

 

[TheCorpulent1]

As I understand it, everyone who claims to be a god or a demon or anything else is just considered another one of "those damn super-types" in the Marvel universe. No one believes Thor is a god because he behaves in identical fashion to every non-divine superhero in the world. When he finally started performing miracles and making deserts into lush farmlands in the issues between The Death of Odin and The Reigning, as Anubis pointed out, Thorism rose as a prominent religion rather quickly and its worshipers and Thor himself faced persecution from believers of the Abrahamic religions. A Christian priest tried to kill Thor with a nuke over moral differences, in fact. But as a whole, the demons behave like supervillains and the gods behave like superheroes, so people accept them as merely supervillains and superheroes and leave it at that. It doesn't affect their belief systems.

 

[Vanguard07]

It does raise an interesting point though. Why dont more people worship superheroes? You would think that there would be at least SOME people out there that, instead of hating and fearing mutants and other people with powers, would view them as "God's Chosen" or some such. Perhaps even angels or gods themselves.

I can understand the majority dismissing legitimate dieties like Thor, Ares or Hercules and not believing that they are THE respective Thor, Ares and Hercules. Just thinking they're crazy people with powers but why does nobody question where those powers came from or how?

Look at it this way: In the Beyond! mini, The Stranger (a high order cosmic entity) couldnt understand humanity's capacity for randomly having VAST powers and was thus experimenting on human specimens to help figure it out.

If not even a High order, nigh abstract Cosmic entity like the Stranger doesnt understand it, we clearly wouldnt. And dont you think that thats exactly the sort of hole in understanding where Faith would normally jump right in?
I mean isnt that the basis of all our myths and religions? to explain away **** we dont understand? Why havent the modern religions in marvel jumped at that problem and adapted instead of ignoring it?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That could make for a good story, but I don't think a religion like that would catch on too well. Heroes have died and failed in plain view of civilians plenty of times, so everyone knows they're not particularly godly in the immortal sense. People are less inclined to believe in deities like the ones from Greek and Norse myths, too, simply because "divine" conjures up an image of an omnipotent, unknowable higher power today thanks to the Abrahamic religions' prominence in the world. Gods who wield tons of power but can still be killed are viewed as oddities to be mocked rather than objects of worship. Our own Mr. Green mentioned in another thread how the Norse people were stupid for believing in gods who could be killed.

As for where the powers come from, I suppose it might be a curiosity for some, but several heroes' powers are a matter of public record (the FF's, for one (or four)), and superhumans have been around for a long time in the Marvel universe--for the majority of most people's lives, at least--so people have kind of gotten used to them. When you take something for granted, you tend not to question it.

 

[Badfish40oz]

WAIT, what's always bugged me is . . Why in the hell aren't the big brain scientists in the MU (Richards, Banner, etc.) MASTERS of sorcery as well? I mean, in a world where sorcery/magic exists, its part of science isn't it? Science being "everything that makes up everything."

At what point was Reed Richards like "Well I have mastered all this thermo dynamic stuff so I'll just call it quits and completely ignore that WHOLE OTHER WORLD of ***** out there that can turn people into frogs and send astral forms of people into outer-space and summon giant demons from Hell."

You'd think all the scientists would be locked in their rooms 24/7 studying up on magic and sorcery.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No, magic isn't part of science. According to Dr. Strange in "Unthinkable," it's actually sort of an anti-science. It has rules, but they're based on feeling and intuition rather than anything concrete or quantifiable. Hence, masters of science, who rely on those things, have trouble dealing with magic. Also, according to Quasar and various other comics over the years, magic energy is an entirely unique form of energy with its own properties that puts it outside of the EM spectrum, hence Quasar's science-based quantum bands couldn't affect it, Thor's magic-powered hammer is immune to Magneto's magnetic powers (or it has been--I think that's become ambiguous), etc. Certain characters can tap into both EM energy and magic energy, like Thor and the Silver Surfer, but by and large, they're kept separate. Then there are all the subsets of magic energy like the stuff Strange gets from the Vishanti or his other patron beings, the magic energy unique to beings who are considered gods (Desak, an enemy of Thor, had a gem that was tuned to specifically absorb that one kind of godly energy and absorbed the powers of gods as he killed them throughout the universe with it), etc. Magic's sort of a mess in the Marvel universe.

 

[storyteller]

I would think the anti mutant groups are a big showing of the religious structure. Most dont care where certain characters got their powers, they are all mutants to them.

 

[Badfish40oz]

Magic's sort of a mess in the Marvel universe.

But it exists. It is part of existence, as much as anything in a science textbook. So you would think that anyone with a quest for knowledge, ie, a scientist, would be just as interested in it as quantum physics or the like.

I mean, in the real world, if a GHOST was discovered TONIGHT, that ghost would automatically cease to be considered "supernatural." Its now "natural." It exits. Its part of science. A very unknown, mysterious, completely insane part of science, but if its real, its part of science . . and scientists would be scrambling around trying to understand what makes it work.

In the MU, they'd just be like "whatever."

 

[Shemtov]

i beleive in numerous places thor has implied he beleives in one of the abrahamic religions and the asgardians are angels.
i actually made a thread about this http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=314861

and see this article:
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Thor.html

 

[BrianWilly]

But it exists. It is part of existence, as much as anything in a science textbook. So you would think that anyone with a quest for knowledge, ie, a scientist, would be just as interested in it as quantum physics or the like.

I mean, in the real world, if a GHOST was discovered TONIGHT, that ghost would automatically cease to be considered "supernatural." Its now "natural." It exits. Its part of science. A very unknown, mysterious, completely insane part of science, but if its real, its part of science . . and scientists would be scrambling around trying to understand what makes it work.

In the MU, they'd just be like "whatever."

The problem is that if you try to approach magic with an empirical, "research-oriented" mind, you're not gonna find magic. Trying to make magic a part of science and the magic is just going to simply not function, or not exist. If you scramble around trying to understand what makes it work, you're just gonna come up empty-handed and frustrated. That's what happens to people like Reed and Tony who have tried to do exactly what you said. They think, "Hmm, magic exists, so it must be simply a natural thing, merely another part of science that's not understood yet!" except that the more they think of it that way, the less that magic works for them. That's why so many MU scientists don't even think that magic exists at all, because when they try to research it, they get nothing.

 

[Vanguard07]

And then Dr Strange points and laughs at them and their impotence.

 

[Manic]

And then his laugh breaks every known law of physics. Because it's magic.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

i beleive in numerous places thor has implied he beleives in one of the abrahamic religions and the asgardians are angels.
i actually made a thread about this http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=314861

and see this article:
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Thor.html

That's kind of ******ed. The Asgardians shouldn't believe in an Abrahamic god. It's just... wrong.

 

[Vanguard07]

To be fair a lot of people back in the old days believed in other peoples' gods. You just only worshipped your own gods. Before the Abrahamic religions most belief systems didnt do much to contradict or discredit other gods' existence.

Rules about exclusivity and false idols and such came along later.

That said it'd make sense for Thor to have a similar view. Especially since he has met numerous gods of other pantheons. For him NOT to have an open mind about other dieties seems a little farfetched.