Why isn`t the religious structure of marvel vastly different to ours?

[Manic]

Interesting bit about the Abrahamic God. You know the Ten Commandments? The second commandment just says not to worship other gods. The third commandment is the one about idols, but it says not to create idols (ie. statues and gaudy imagery). The next commandment says not to worship the gaudy statues and other gods.

Doesn't really say the other gods don't exist. Just that you and the next four generations of your family will be punished for following them instead of ol' jealous Elohim/Yahweh.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That said it'd make sense for Thor to have a similar view. Especially since he has met numerous gods of other pantheons. For him NOT to have an open mind about other dieties seems a little farfetched.

I'm not saying he shouldn't acknowledge other gods' existence, but swearing on a bible to the Abrahamic God implies a devotion to Him. Even if the Abrahamic God does exist, he shouldn't mean anything to Thor. Thor's greatest belief ought to be in Odin or himself or something Norse. It makes the Norse pantheon look kind of pathetic if they declare themselves gods and accept people's worship but turn around and bow down to another God simply because he has greater power.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

I think if you take a step back and see the problem not from an internal Marvel Universe story, because we can speculate all we want about why super-humans, demons, and angels, and cosmic-powered aliens have not effected most of the world in the way it would in reality.....but from a bigger picture in that the studio doesn't want to mix established religiuous beliefs with those in its own mythologies to simply not extremely offend its readers or sensitive religious communities.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, yeah, but that explanation's as boring as "because it's a comic book." DC's actually been pretty open to using the Abrahamic religions in their stories, though, especially in their Vertigo line.

 

[Vanguard07]

I remember the issue where Thor swore on a bible in court. The dude holding the bible was all hesitant and Thor basically did it just to calm everyone down.

He even said something along the lines of "Your god isnt mine but out of respect for your beliefs i'll give my solemn oath the same way you crazy kids do. By Odin I wont lie."

Seems to me that Thor acknowledges the existence of the christian god but I've never seen any indication that he worships it or anything.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Well, yeah, but that explanation's as boring as "because it's a comic book." DC's actually been pretty open to using the Abrahamic religions in their stories, though, especially in their Vertigo line.

I guess the alternative is too mind-boggling to fathom for me...this coupled with the fact that I'm no expert on Marvel pantheons. It seems every writer binds their stories to reality differently depending on their own understanding of it. Some writers have a good understanding of the physical sciences and religions, or even socio-political turmoils around the globe, while others simply don't and just create new countries like Cable's Utopian Rumekistan where all religions and people co-exist peacefully with a nuclear armed Russia not doing anything about its takeover of land.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I remember the issue where Thor swore on a bible in court. The dude holding the bible was all hesitant and Thor basically did it just to calm everyone down.

He even said something along the lines of "Your god isnt mine but out of respect for your beliefs i'll give my solemn oath the same way you crazy kids do. By Odin I wont lie."

Seems to me that Thor acknowledges the existence of the christian god but I've never seen any indication that he worships it or anything.

I'm much more comfortable with this explanation.

Do you know what issue it was, by any chance? I want to read it now.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

In the Ghost Rider comics, God, Angels, heavens are mentioned all the time these days. It seems the only thing the Marvel heaven doesnt have is nice angels..they all seem to be arch angels working in vast conspiracies to take over Heaven.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's 'cause they have no junk. Sexual repression's a terrible thing, I'm telling you.

 

[Vanguard07]

I have no idea as to the actual issue number. I wanna say it was near Busiek's last Avengers run cause in my mind the art style was still similar.

Dunno if that helps any.

 

[Shemtov]

see

thor and the asgardians believe there is a higher power then themselves "one to whom every knee must bend, and whose light outshines us all"".

**
and on http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Thor.html

Hell, I even saw Thor go in a church and kneel down and say that there is an even higher power than Odin, which is a real moment.

But the strongest moment came about in the classic "Whatever Gods There Be". In that story he saved a Catholic priest from a collapsing church. The priest had been losing faith and wondering whether he should have been worshipping Thor, a god he could see, all along. Thor, mightily supporting the church, tells him that though there are great powers in Asgard, there is One whose radiance outshines us all, and (and you really have to see the issue to get how dramatic this is.) "Thy faith is NOT misplaced

Actually, I think we could include Thor and Hercules in this discussion. Funny thing is, if you follow Thor's title closely, he reveals that he and the rest of the Asgardians believe in a "Higher Power". In issue 20 something of the current run of Thor, a little child makes Thor pause along the street. The little kid says something like. "My mommy says that you're a liar claiming to be a God, and that there's only one God, but you're not it". Thor explains something like, "I'm a higher being, but their is a higher being than me and my kind, so your mother is right to believe whatever she chooses

 

[Yodaman]

I'm sorry I'm not contributing anything significant to this thread, but I just read this...

A Christian priest tried to kill Thor with a nuke over moral differences, in fact.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!? A priest...with a nuke. Does this priest happen to be the leader of a terrorist cell or the leader of a country? Are nukes just given out like candy in the Marvel U? I haven't read this story, but this stretches every sense of believability, even for a comic.

 

[The Question]

I remember the issue where Thor swore on a bible in court. The dude holding the bible was all hesitant and Thor basically did it just to calm everyone down.

He even said something along the lines of "Your god isnt mine but out of respect for your beliefs i'll give my solemn oath the same way you crazy kids do. By Odin I wont lie."

Seems to me that Thor acknowledges the existence of the christian god but I've never seen any indication that he worships it or anything.

The way I look at it is that, in most pagan/polytheistic religions, even the gods are subject to fate. It's this great, abstract force that binds and controls even them. In monotheistic religions, God and Fate are essentially the same thing, or at least God controls Fate, depending on your view. If you want to accept multiple beliefs, the polytheistic "lesser" gods are essentially the middle man between humans and the big guy, and monotheism simply cuts out the middle man. So, while Thor wouldn't explicitly worship God in that he would attend Christian or Jewish services, he would have a great deal of reverence for God in the same way many pagan gods were shown to have a reverence for the whims of Fate in the myths. I think, at least.

 

[Shemtov]

is it so implausible that god made angels think they were gods? thats how i am able to read thor comics without thinking they are blaspheamous to my beliefs.

 

[Alex Summers]

is it so implausible that god made angels think they were gods? thats how i am able to read thor comics without thinking they are blaspheamous to my beliefs.

You can believe whatever you want, but that still won't change the fact that Thor IS the Norse thunder god in the Marvel Universe. If you have to change the character(s) to fit with your own religious beliefs, well, you might as well just stop reading comics.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I have no idea as to the actual issue number. I wanna say it was near Busiek's last Avengers run cause in my mind the art style was still similar.

Dunno if that helps any.

I'll take a look back at those issues. I read most of his run, but there were patches I missed. Thanks.

I'm sorry I'm not contributing anything significant to this thread, but I just read this...



WHAT?!?!?!?!?!? A priest...with a nuke. Does this priest happen to be the leader of a terrorist cell or the leader of a country? Are nukes just given out like candy in the Marvel U? I haven't read this story, but this stretches every sense of believability, even for a comic.

No, the priest fell in with a cabal of anonymous business leaders who felt threatened by Thor's rise as a real power in the world. You know, the oil tycoons and war profiteers who were benefiting from all the troubles Thor's "miracles" at the time were putting a stop to.

It was actually one part of a two-pronged attack brought about with the help of the cabal's other buddy, Zarrko. The priest lured Thor out to an uninhabited island to try and make him stop making waves in the world's religious and political circles by doing all of his miracles and such while the cabal's mercenaries and Zarrko mounted a full-scale invasion of Asgard, which was floating over New York at the time. They brought Asgard crashing down into New York while the priest, finding Thor unreceptive to his pleas to stop, finally used the nuke as a last resort, blowing himself and Thor up at ground zero.

Naturally, all that did was piss Thor off and catapult him further down the path to megalomania, killing the cabal in one fell swoop and eventually taking over all of North America in an alternate future. Thor later realizes the error of his ways and uses Zarrko's time travel device, the Odinpower, and the future Tarene's powers to reset the timeline, withdrawing Asgard from New York just before the cabal's raid was set to occur and leaving his younger self with the knowledge of what would happen if he didn't change.

 

[The Question]

is it so implausible that god made angels think they were gods? thats how i am able to read thor comics without thinking they are blaspheamous to my beliefs.

Well, I suppose. But from a storytelling standpoint, it's just a bit too easy. Not much thought put into it, which is not as good for a subject as big as spirituality. In my mind, the spiritual represents enormous, untapped world to be explored. It's a big, complex thing that we're only really scratching the surface of. And while it's natural for writers and philosophers and holy men to try and come up with their own answers, their own ideas of how these worlds within worlds that we've only seen the tip of work, and I don't se a thing wrong with it, I think going for the simple solution is A: most likely wrong, and B: disrespectful to the concept. It's bigger than that. And a writer needs to treat any big concepts that are so important to human living with as much reverence as they'd give to whatever gods they may worship. That's a huge part of being a writer.

 

[Anubis]

I'll take a look back at those issues. I read most of his run, but there were patches I missed. Thanks.

No, the priest fell in with a cabal of anonymous business leaders who felt threatened by Thor's rise as a real power in the world. You know, the oil tycoons and war profiteers who were benefiting from all the troubles Thor's "miracles" at the time were putting a stop to.

It was actually one part of a two-pronged attack brought about with the help of the cabal's other buddy, Zarrko. The priest lured Thor out to an uninhabited island to try and make him stop making waves in the world's religious and political circles by doing all of his miracles and such while the cabal's mercenaries and Zarrko mounted a full-scale invasion of Asgard, which was floating over New York at the time. They brought Asgard crashing down into New York while the priest, finding Thor unreceptive to his pleas to stop, finally used the nuke as a last resort, blowing himself and Thor up at ground zero.

Naturally, all that did was piss Thor off and catapult him further down the path to megalomania, killing the cabal in one fell swoop and eventually taking over all of North America in an alternate future. Thor later realizes the error of his ways and uses Zarrko's time travel device, the Odinpower, and the future Tarene's powers to reset the timeline, withdrawing Asgard from New York just before the cabal's raid was set to occur and leaving his younger self with the knowledge of what would happen if he didn't change.

Don't forget that souless little Girl Thor brought back from the dead was on that island too.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, Thor tried to restore a little girl's life with the Odinpower but ended up restoring her body without her soul for some reason. I don't know why, since I think Odin has restored lives before, but I'd guess it's because Thor's not as proficient with the Odinpower as Odin was. Anyway, the priest used the soulless little girl-thing as proof that Thor's actions were misguided.

 

[carnageehw]

Because no one wants to read about religion, that's what Church is for. They want to read about Superheros.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor's comic at the time was about superheroes and religion. And politics and the very concept of faith. It was pretty complex and much better for it than a typical "Thor meets villain X and proceeds to punch him until unconsciousness sets in" superhero plot.

 

[Yodaman]

Because no one wants to read about religion, that's what Church is for. They want to read about Superheros.

Of course religion shouldn't be in EVERY superhero comic, it'd be inappropriate, but why not address it now and then? It's an aspect of the world, just like politics or sex or drugs. If superheroe comics address those things now and then, religion shouldn't be off-limits, as long as it's not preaching a certain dogma to the audience.

That is assuming you want deeper stories rather than just monthly beat-em-ups.

 

[Vanguard07]

haha to be fair "Thor meets villain X and proceeds to punch him untill unconsciousness sets in" sounds like an excellent story arc. I'd deffinitely read it.

That said I agree that it's better to have a variety of levels of storytelling. You need some complexity and intrigue now and then just like you sometimes just need to see someone f***ing HIT something.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The best comics are definitely a mix of both. Cases in point: Incredible Hercules, Checkmate, Blue Beetle, and Guardians of the Galaxy.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I remember the issue where Thor swore on a bible in court. The dude holding the bible was all hesitant and Thor basically did it just to calm everyone down.

He even said something along the lines of "Your god isnt mine but out of respect for your beliefs i'll give my solemn oath the same way you crazy kids do. By Odin I wont lie."

Seems to me that Thor acknowledges the existence of the christian god but I've never seen any indication that he worships it or anything.

I'm much more comfortable with this explanation.

Do you know what issue it was, by any chance? I want to read it now.

It was an issue of Namor ...number 13 if I'm right.