Will Marvel`s fear of change and age eventually destroy them?

[The Question]

Ok i`ll concede on this....he`s a bullet proof dork. And yes i ma gonna make fun of the way he talks. He is a fictional character, he can`t do anything. And even if he could i would win because...oh yeah! He`s a dork.

I'm not entirely sure what your definition of a dork is, but a brave, decent man who, despite all of his power, regularly goes up against forces way above his pay grade in order to do the right thing is very far from a dork. So what if he doesn't talk like an inner city thug?

 

[Harlekin]

Yes, I know what Marvel's official line is. That doesn't change a thing. You should stop looking at these things from a continuity perspective and more from a story perspective. The former is headache inducing ; the latter allows you to keep the jive talk and still have Luke Cage progress as a character.

Stop overthinking it and just enjoy your comics.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

Yes, I know what Marvel's official line is. That doesn't change a thing. You should stop looking at these things from a continuity perspective and more from a story perspective. The former is headache inducing ; the latter allows you to keep the jive talk and still have Luke Cage progress as a character.

Stop overthinking it and just enjoy your comics.

Its not overthinking it. Its a valid point. Why can`t comic characters age at the same rate as characters in every other medium? Wolverine was best during the 80s when they inferred he was getting past it and his healing ability was begining to fail him. After that he became bland when they scrapped the aging bit for him and just turned him back into a wild animal.

 

[Harlekin]

No other medium works like comics. There's a reason for that.

Also, your Wolverine example has nothing to do with age and all the more with incompetence from writers and editors.

 

[gildea]

marvel aren't going to write stories that eventually, if follwed to logical conclusion, allow their main icons to die (without a retacon).


It's selfish of us to even want this.

 

[Aristotle]

BW, I think our fundamental disagreement is coming from you not understanding my point. I don't agree with static illusory time at all. And I don't think that's what either company is doing. Changing a character's war service from WWII to Korea to Vietnam to Kuwait is a minor reset button, to be sure, but that's the vagaries of slowtime. It's a price I don't mind paying for slowtime, which allows us the best of both worlds: we can see characters grow and develop, but we also don't have to kiss them goodbye in ten years. Note I'm not saying that we do see them grow and develop, just that we can. It is not an inherency of the slowtime paradigm that development is reversed. It is simply the choice of lazy writers. Most of the time it isn't even necessary to tell the story. Writers just choose to do it.

The only real inherency of the paradigm is that we get a few dated cultural touchstones and references. So what? It's gonna happen anyway. If Luke Cage had aged naturally, his old comics would still look jive-turkey lame.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

BW, I think our fundamental disagreement is coming from you not understanding my point. I don't agree with static illusory time at all. And I don't think that's what either company is doing. Changing a character's war service from WWII to Korea to Vietnam to Kuwait is a minor reset button, to be sure, but that's the vagaries of slowtime. It's a price I don't mind paying for slowtime, which allows us the best of both worlds: we can see characters grow and develop, but we also don't have to kiss them goodbye in ten years. Note I'm not saying that we do see them grow and develop, just that we can. It is not an inherency of the slowtime paradigm that development is reversed. It is simply the choice of lazy writers. Most of the time it isn't even necessary to tell the story. Writers just choose to do it.

The only real inherency of the paradigm is that we get a few dated cultural touchstones and references. So what? It's gonna happen anyway. If Luke Cage had aged naturally, his old comics would still look jive-turkey lame.

What about Magneto? Its fine to change punisher from a vietnam vet to being a gulf war vet but how can magneto still have the interesting duality without the holocaust being part of his backstory? There is no other event that would be able to have the power of the holocaust in his origin.

His old comics would have looked silly but like Man from U.N.C.L.E or The avengers (tv series) it would have been acceptable as we know those series occured in their respective periods. The 70s elements seem slightly silly when in their respective period but if you try and say the stories occured five years ago then they make no sense.

The problem isn`t just becuase of lazy writing. The entire problem stems from the slowing of time. By slowing time it means at some point you have to retcon or invalidate old stories to make your timeline work.

If they had never used slowed time we might actually be reading stories set in the universe or the original batman and superman. Instead we are reading stories about some pretend superman and batmans. One day the same thing will happen in marvel, they will say that all ditko`s spidey stories are no longer applicable and so classic spidey will die a silent death while 2030 spidey will become the iconic hero.

 

[Harlekin]

His old comics would have looked silly but like Man from U.N.C.L.E or The avengers (tv series) it would have been acceptable as we know those series occured in their respective periods. The 70s elements seem slightly silly when in their respective period but if you try and say the stories occured five years ago then they make no sense.

I still don't understand this thought progress. These stories were written in the 70s and that's why they are as they are. Instead of looking at them from the perspective of 2008, you need to look at them in their context.

The problem isn`t just becuase of lazy writing. The entire problem stems from the slowing of time. By slowing time it means at some point you have to retcon or invalidate old stories to make your timeline work.

Not really. Take Harry Osborn's drug use as an example. That still happened. We don't need a retelling of that just because Spidey and his crew were talking differently than they are now. The pertinent events still occurred. There's no need to invalidate or retcon them.

If they had never used slowed time we might actually be reading stories set in the universe or the original batman and superman. Instead we are reading stories about some pretend superman and batmans. One day the same thing will happen in marvel, they will say that all ditko`s spidey stories are no longer applicable and so classic spidey will die a silent death while 2030 spidey will become the iconic hero.

Ditko's Spidey stories will always be the fundament of the character. They don't need to be retconned because they were written in the 60s. You just need to look at them in their proper time frame and then adapt them to your own timeline.

Luke Cage started heroing five years ago, but the stories about that time were written thirty years ago, so they're naturally different. However, that doesn't have to be a problem as long as you don't make it one. You're the one talking yourself into a headache, not Marvel.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

I still don't understand this thought progress. These stories were written in the 70s and that's why they are as they are. Instead of looking at them from the perspective of 2008, you need to look at them in their context.


Not really. Take Harry Osborn's drug use as an example. That still happened. We don't need a retelling of that just because Spidey and his crew were talking differently than they are now. The pertinent events still occurred. There's no need to invalidate or retcon them.

You`d think that but still the DC stories from the 30s through to the 80s are still pretty much dead. Give it 30 years and as it becomes to cumbersome to keep everything in one slowed time continuity marvel will prob do the same. goodbye kirby stories. goodbye ditko stories. goodbye classic age.

Ditko's Spidey stories will always be the fundament of the character. They don't need to be retconned because they were written in the 60s. You just need to look at them in their proper time frame and then adapt them to your own timeline.

I`m sure a lot of people could say the early batman stories are fundamental to the character. DC still considers those stories defunct though.

Luke Cage started heroing five years ago, but the stories about that time were written thirty years ago, so they're naturally different. However, that doesn't have to be a problem as long as you don't make it one. You're the one talking yourself into a headache, not Marvel.

No marvel`s official line is that everything happened within the last 15 years. Marvel is making the problem. If I had my way it would all have been in real time and luke cage`s 70s stories would have ocured in the 70s.

You can say "just imagine its in the right period" but thats silly of course you can view it in any context if you disreguard the facts, I could read the comics in a way that i imagined that magneto was a very ugly woman throughout x-men. Its not true and it doesn`t gel with the official data. Magneto is a dude and everything in marvel`s history occured within the last 15 years. That is the official line no matter how you imagine the issues as you read them.

I see you avoided my points on magneto and the holocaust and the fact that the original batman and superman have been rendered defunct.

 

[chamber-music]

John Constantine ages in real time and the X-Men age.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

John Constantine ages in real time and the X-Men age.

See. John Constantine, Savage Dragon, Goku and Judge Dredd. The best characters are real time.

the x-men used to age they stopped in the late 80s. Imean if they aged properly they would be in their 50s/60s.

 

[Harlekin]

You`d think that but still the DC stories from the 30s through to the 80s are still pretty much dead. Give it 30 years and as it becomes to cumbersome to keep everything in one slowed time continuity marvel will prob do the same. goodbye kirby stories. goodbye ditko stories. goodbye classic age.

We're talking about Marvel, not DC. I don't agree with what DC is doing on that front since I consider it unnecessary.

I`m sure a lot of people could say the early batman stories are fundamental to the character. DC still considers those stories defunct though.

Early Batman stories, with the exclusion of the first year or so, are not necessarily defunct. Batman still took on Robin, still fought the Joker and still met Catwoman. The stories are still there.

No marvel`s official line is that everything happened within the last 15 years. Marvel is making the problem. If I had my way it would all have been in real time and luke cage`s 70s stories would have ocured in the 70s.

You can say "just imagine its in the right period" but thats silly of course you can view it in any context if you disreguard the facts, I could read the comics in a way that i imagined that magneto was a very ugly woman throughout x-men. Its not true and it doesn`t gel with the official data. Magneto is a dude and everything in marvel`s history occured within the last 15 years. That is the official line no matter how you imagine the issues as you read them.

You're completely misreading what I'm saying. I'm not saying "just imagine", I'm saying "read those stories as they were written". You're looking at Luke Cage stories from the 70s as stories that happened a year ago, whereas you should be looking at them as Luke Cage stories from the 70s. You're not 'imagining' anything then, you're reading.

I see you avoided my points on magneto and the holocaust and the fact that the original batman and superman have been rendered defunct.

I'm not avoiding anything. I'm contuining our earlier discussion.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

We're talking about Marvel, not DC. I don't agree with what DC is doing on that front since I consider it unnecessary.


Early Batman stories, with the exclusion of the first year or so, are not necessarily defunct. Batman still took on Robin, still fought the Joker and still met Catwoman. The stories are still there.


You're completely misreading what I'm saying. I'm not saying "just imagine", I'm saying "read those stories as they were written". You're looking at Luke Cage stories from the 70s as stories that happened a year ago, whereas you should be looking at them as Luke Cage stories from the 70s. You're not 'imagining' anything then, you're reading.

I'm not avoiding anything. I'm contuining our earlier discussion.

I think we are both coming in at different angles. You are saying read the comics as they were originally written as in a 70s comic set in the 70s. I am saying that to do that you have to ignore the official mandate on when the stories should occur. If marvel and DC simply had real time it wouldn`t even be a problem it would be fine I would be able to read the 70s comics as being stories et in the 70s. I often do read old comics and enjoy them but 25% of the time there is the nagging annoyance that you realise how things occur in the official marvel mandate. If they had real time it wouldn`t be a prob.

 

[The Question]

I still don't see what all the fuss is about with even the prospect of keeping the jive-talking ways of Luke Cage in the modern era. How cool or badass someone is isn't defined by how they talk. And always thought Luke's explanation s to why he says "Sweet Christmas" instead of swearing, that his grandmother made him promise not to use foul language, was kind of cute.

Plus, it's kind of a double standard. The Thing still says stuff like "What a revoltin' development," and "IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!" in modern comics. Yeah, it sounds kind of goofy. But the n that's just how he talks. Some people talk kind of goofy, Ben Grimm is one of them, and that doesn't stop him from being one of the coolest people in the MU.

 

[chamber-music]

How most of the characters talked is outdated not just Cage. Ever read an old Spider-Man or Fantastic Four?

 

[Harlekin]

I think we are both coming in at different angles. You are saying read the comics as they were originally written as in a 70s comic set in the 70s. I am saying that to do that you have to ignore the official mandate on when the stories should occur. If marvel and DC simply had real time it wouldn`t even be a problem it would be fine I would be able to read the 70s comics as being stories et in the 70s. I often do read old comics and enjoy them but 25% of the time there is the nagging annoyance that you realise how things occur in the official marvel mandate. If they had real time it wouldn`t be a prob.

So, ignore the mandate. Why is that so hard? Like I said, the pertinent thing for a timeline is the event itself, not how it is written.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

So, ignore the mandate. Why is that so hard? Like I said, the pertinent thing for a timeline is the event itself, not how it is written.

We seem to be going in circles.

You say forget changing things. Marvel Time works just adapt the comic in your head to fit current continiuity.

I say why do that when its just easier to eliminate marvel time and run on a real time basis. Thereby you could just read a comic without needinmg to ver be concerned about when it occured.

 

[Harlekin]

However, actual real time is incredibly hard to achieve. Most storyarcs (six months) take place in the span of a few days.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

However, actual real time is incredibly hard to achieve. Most storyarcs (six months) take place in the span of a few days.

True you have to operate under a different assumption. You operate under the assumption that for most of a year spidey or captain america fight crime but most of their adventures are run of the mill foiling bank heists or chasing criminals, the 12 issues (and perhaps an annual) are the most important events of the year. For a character like spidey or wolverine they are in so many titles that it is even easier to imagine a year of comics is a year of crisises in their timeline.

`Sides Judge dredd and savage dragon managed it.

 

[Harlekin]

Well, what helps Judge Dredd and Savage Dragon is that they don't exist in a shared universe, or at least isolated. Having the Marvel universe continue to be cohesive while adhering to real-time is pretty much undoable.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

Well, what helps Judge Dredd and Savage Dragon is that they don't exist in a shared universe, or at least isolated. Having the Marvel universe continue to be cohesive while adhering to real-time is pretty much undoable.

Not really. How can it be more difficult to just write the comic in the same time period you the writer are living in. Surely marvel time makes it more difficult to write in a shared universe, i mean if you want to reference the first iinferno crossover when in continuity did that occur?

The only bit that could cause head aches is working out character ages but with that you can just go for a ballpark figure for most day to day conversation scenes while keeping a rough track on the age of main characters.

Its easier than you think.

 

[Overman27pj]

Not really. How can it be more difficult to just write the comic in the same time period you the writer are living in. Surely marvel time makes it more difficult to write in a shared universe, i mean if you want to reference the first iinferno crossover when in continuity did that occur?

The only bit that could cause head aches is working out character ages but with that you can just go for a ballpark figure for most day to day conversation scenes while keeping a rough track on the age of main characters.

Its easier than you think.

Dude its way tougher just simply based on Volume. How many books does marvel have out? How many different writers on those books, and how many editors are involved? People complain when books are delayed a week, they just don't have the resources to go back and fix everything. There will always be bumps.

Also, and more importantly, you are not looking at it very business like. The Character of Spidy or Wolverine is each probably worth a vast sum of money. I would venture to guess 50 million a piece, in sheer branding ability alone!

Does marvel make more when one of the top 'products' grows old and dies, or when they have a writer just retcon a little and keep it riding.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

Dude its way tougher just simply based on Volume. How many books does marvel have out? How many different writers on those books, and how many editors are involved? People complain when books are delayed a week, they just don't have the resources to go back and fix everything. There will always be bumps.

Also, and more importantly, you are not looking at it very business like. The Character of Spidy or Wolverine is each probably worth a vast sum of money. I would venture to guess 50 million a piece, in sheer branding ability alone!

Does marvel make more when one of the top 'products' grows old and dies, or when they have a writer just retcon a little and keep it riding.

I don`t think it would become more difficult. It would just be a slightly different edge to the stories. It would actually make things easier as without a sliding timescale people at marvel and dc would prob have bios for each main character tucked away with their birthdate on it for reference. You would always be quickly able to know how old the character was.

The thing is that it is the name and iconography that is really what is selling in 9 out of 10 cases. They simply could have the characters grow old and then pass their legacy on to a new character. Green Lantern, Robin, Iron Man and The Flash proved this could work well.

The truth is marvel and dc are afraid. We have to suffer rehashed stories or big events where the icons come out okay but characters like blue beetle and black goliath have to bite it just because the big two don`t have the guts to put their faith in their ability to sell the newer heroes.

If spiderman grew old would it matter? Scarlet Spider or Spidergirl could have been brought in to take over. Spiderwoman or Nightthrasher or Nova or Darkhawk could have become the new hero to fill the teen angst role spidey once had. Some other kid could have gained the costume and become spiderman. It would have worked and like the flash people would have been fine with it because it would have felt like a natural logical progression. As opposed to the measures caused by marvel time like one more day which many fans hated.

I mean you think of the possibilities of a comic universe where the characters age and the future seems far more unpredictable and exciting than a universe of marvel time static.

 

[Harlekin]

Each of the heroes you mention haven't sold anywhere near Spider-Man's level. Green Lantern, Flash and Iron Man are all back to the way they were. Why? Fans. While it's unfair to put the blame there, they are also responsible for the vicious cycle in which Marvel and DC have ended up with their characters and their audience.

As to my comment that realtime would make a shared universe harder: it would pretty much ban out crossovers, which would be hell to properly synch up.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

Each of the heroes you mention haven't sold anywhere near Spider-Man's level. Green Lantern, Flash and Iron Man are all back to the way they were. Why? Fans. While it's unfair to put the blame there, they are also responsible for the vicious cycle in which Marvel and DC have ended up with their characters and their audience.

As to my comment that realtime would make a shared universe harder: it would pretty much ban out crossovers, which would be hell to properly synch up.

Not really. As long as it all falss within 12 months it would synch up.