Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by 4NutzinYoface, Jan 8, 2012.
It's not as good as the first two, obviously, but I've seen much worse movies.
Speaking of... has anyone else seen this?
Now that's how X3 should have went. It's so simple.
personally i loved X3 and it ties with X2 as my fave
X2 is one of the best superheromovies ever made IMHO.
The Last Stand Is a major disappointment because as followup to X2 It Is major step
down from one of best superhero films ever.Apart from being In My oporion best
X-Men film I consider X2 to best Marvel film.It fails miserbly compared to X2.
X3 had a lot of problems but at the end of the day, it was far from terrible.
And it had a couple of great scenes.
I just remember I liked X-Men 3 back in 2006.
But then I saw it again a few days ago. And I loved it. The very premise of this one is more interesting than anything in X2.
Everything here points to more interesting questions about what being a mutant is like. In X2 you had Wolverine looking for his origin for two hours... and he gets absolutely nothing. Xavier is under hypnosis for half of the movie. We get another unnecessary explanation of what Cerebro is, which we all knew from the first one. We get Jeran Gray is having problems, but absolutely nothing else happens to her regarding this. Yes, she dies in the last minute for different reasons altogether. The only other thing is that we get yet another pointless unfinished dialogue between her and Wolverine (she loves me, she loves me not) that makes zero progress from where we left them in X1. Oh and that damn dam that takes forever to collapse; what's the point in showing something about to collapse when it's painfully obvious it will resist untill everyone is safe?
All in X2 is about them having a particular problem with a bad guy; in X3 all is about humans trying to re-define mutations as a desease while they have to decide whether they're sick people to be cured or proud of what they are. And they make their choices. I was so happy with Rogue deciding to have a normal life, I was so sure they were going to deceive me into believeing that she was, and then at the last minute she had decided otherwise.
I cannot think of one single aspect in which X2 can surpass X3. Even Storm had something to do here. All X2 had to offer was the initial sequence with Nightcrawler. And it's not like Nightcrawler had anything else to offer to the story after that initial scene. But fights like Wolverine and that girl was boring. Most of X2 is boring. Even the action.
While X2 is happy with not developing its characters (except killing Jean Gray at the end only to show us she didn't actually died 5 minutes later), X3 dares to tell a story where nobody ends being the same.
I must say I wholeheartedly agree with El Payaso.
X3 might have had its problems (e.g. limited screentime), but overall it was certainly on par with the previous films.
The story was much more focused this time around. The whole X2 scene with Iceman's parents was there just to add some social commentary but it had almost zero connection to the rest of the story, which quite honestly was just a single man's vendetta. Sure, Stryker's hatred of mutants did touch upon larger issues, but in the end whatever was happening was orchestrated by a single person. X3 does not shy away from involving everybody in its story and showing, however shortly, all views on the subject. There are sensible and misguided mutants like there are sensible and misguided "regular" people. The story does have a much broader scope, and it would have been even better with an added 15-20 minutes.
Second, the action in this instalment is quite superior too. Whereas X2 focused on showcasing individuals (mainly Nightcrawler and Wolverine), in X3 the X-men feel like a team, something that we had only briefly seen during the finale of X1. Plus, it's not trying to be overly "realistic", spoiling the fun. Storm does fly in this one, Iceman does ice up etc. It even included some neat easter eggs, like the danger room sequence or the "fastball special", bringing the whole movie universe a step closer to the comic books.
I could go on, but I don't want this post to evolve into an essay. Overall, I think X3 is mostly undeserving of all the animosity towards it. I guess it's mostly due to the internet mentality. Fans' opinions tend to have no spectrum online. They only seem capable of utter love or utter hatred, so if a movie disappoints them in any way, they throw it in the garbage and refuse to talk about it again or acknowledge anything good it might have had.
The actual story idea with the cure had potential. But the Phoenix aspect, major characters being killed off... (even off-screen). All that, was just bad. Also, Wolverine being the new X-Men leader. That seemed very forced.
I also had problems with Magneto. His depiction. He really wasn't much of a threat here. Ironic, since he lifts the ****ing Golden Gate bridge. But he does very little else, except talk, and his followers are mostly thuggish gang members. Not very dignified or sophisticated.
Last stand Isn't on par with X-Men,and X2.It Is far beneath them.
It does have some redeeming qualitys but It Is a very mixed bag.Most X-Men fans would
call Last Stand a mixed bag.A lot of this was fox.Some was Brett Ratner.
Okay, so how exactly is major characters dying a bad thing per se? Didn't Hamlet die at the end? Was that bad?
And then again, Wolverine of all was the one who had a biggest development, passing from the classic individualist to the leader. How is development forced is a mistery to me. Plus it was him and Storm who became more the spiritual leader as Logan became the battle leader.
So, all Magneto did was organizing all the mutants that were against the cure and give the hell of an attack against that facility. Not to mention to keep the uncontrolable Phoenix workinmg for him.
And yes, the bridge thing, and how he rescued Juggernaut and Mistique wasn't bad either.
I cannot grasp this Magneto's 'lack of threat' or how 'little' did he do.
How so? It addressed much more important issues than X2 and had far better action and character development - which X2 had little of.
Major characters dying is fine, if done properly. But here it felt rushed, and at times they didn't seem to care. Cyclops apparently dies off screen. No characters really seemed to care, beyond "oh, Scott's dead". It didn't affect anyone. Xavier's death was abrupt, but at least there was a little mourning. Hell, it's hard to get invested in any of these characters. Remember Colossus? Did he even have dialogue in this movie? Most of the X-Men never even spoke to each other. They killed off Cyclops just so Wolverine could be leader. That I found forced.
In the first movie, Magneto was a sophisticated, mysterious figure, they built him up to be a menacing threat. A guy with big plans. In the third movie, he just wanders around with a poorly organized gang of mutant delinquents. In the first movie he had a very ambitious scheme that threatened the entire world. Here he and some hoods flash mob Alcatraz… That's the entirety of his plan. Surprised they didn't say genius Pyro was the one who came up with that master plan.
It did affect the rest of the X-Men and I remember Jean Gray asking Wolverine to kill her because she's aware she killed Scott. So yes, they did care.
Abrupt? He knew the risk of going to Phoenix and talk to her. And she took her time to kill him, first having him levitating for a while, then starting slowly to desintegrate him before actually killing him. So no, it was not abrupt at all.
And you call a "little mourning" to a whole scene of the funeral and other parts where Wolverine was very affected as was Storm. No, it was not "little."
Did he have any in X2?
But just to answer your question, yes, he had and had more screentime and participation than in X2 too.
Odd. I remember the first scene with all X-Men involved speaking to each other, then Xavier to Storm, to Phonenix, to Wolverine. In fact, all X-Men spent the movie speaking to weach other.
And then again it was to show how destructive Phoenix was, how little control Jean Gray had over it. How that woman that Scott loved had changed.
For that matter they had them being mutants just to have them have some conflict, how forced is that? It's just the way stories are told.
It's just wording poorly one plan and extol the other. In both movies Magneto wanders around with some other mutants. In X3 he happens to have hundreds of them instead of 3.
And of course the Alcatraz thing was just the start, but it was going to destroy the 'homo sapiens'' plan to destroy them. It was still better than his plans in X2 which were... just stop one guy I think.
I don't think we'll agree on most of these complaints (or any really). But let me put it this way, in the first two movies, Magneto's plans, were somewhat intricate. Note for example, his escape in X2 (that took some creativity). In X3, they best thing he could come up with was mob rushing Alcatraz. You can clearly see the decline in quality of writing. If you can't, then there's no sense in debating the matter.
Magneto doesm't have to have intrincate plans. In X3 there was a threat over them, the extermination of mutants so quicker plans and a more direct attack was required. But I saw a dcline of writing in X2 where nobody had any character development and characters like Nighcrawler were there just decoratively.
I don't think the writing was much to write home about to begin with. But X3 dropped even further. Nightcrawler was little more than a cameo. Though at least the villain was mildly interesting.
What villiain? Stryker? What was ever interesting about him? At most how did he manipulated his own son, that's about it. Other than that, corrupt agent that pretrends something mean.
Tell me where X3 dropped even further, since it was more complex than good vs baddies. Even within the X-Men there were mutants who questioned their own identity as such and entities such as the US government were good or bad depoending on the point of view.
If there's one thing I could take out of X2, it would be its villain and his nonsensible plan. Stryker is another government agent with a vendetta and that's all there is to him. it is kinda humorous that this man would even present a threat to the X-men. I mean what would happen if other X-men were present at the mansion attack except Wolverine?
And the worst part about him is actually his son. He's supposed to be an illusionist, but he actually controls people's minds? Even someone as powerful as Xavier? Whatever he does to Xavier does kind of start out as an illusion, although I don't see why Xavier would think he's back at the mansion when he knows perfectly well where he is. But then the "little girl" tells him to kill all mutants without providing any reason to do so and he just goes with it? That's not even remotely an illusion, it's pure mind-control. And I have no idea what it would take to mind-control Xavier.
So yeah, the whole film kinda collapses near the end because of this simplistic villain that's somehow aiming way higher than he's believably capable of.
I agree. But talking about collapsing, there's only so much tension you can grow out of a dam that is about to collapse... but never does.
He, it's probably the dramatic tension of the upcoming "sacrifice" that's holding it together.
Speaking of which, to this day I still don't get why Jean had to die there. Was there an unspoken rule for her powers saying she couldn't lift herself up? She does in X3. I've also heard suggestions that her powers were getting too much out of hand, but we never saw anything that would suggest that. She never put her teammates in any danger and her increased powers even helped them in a couple of scenes.
I shudder when I recall the ranting and raving on these forums when X3 was released. It was a fury worse than anything the Dark Phoenix could summon.
I agree the film posed interesting questions about identity and acceptance, though it could have been tied more directly with the Phoenix plotline. Any government would see her terrible power as good reason for the cure to exist as a counter-measure, especially after the destruction at the house where Xavier was obliterated.
She wasn't best handled near the end, when standing around on Alcatraz. Obviously, she was damaged/tortured by what had happened with Cyclops and Xavier and Jean must have been trying to maintain control and calmness so as not to trigger the Phoenix personality again. But on screen it did feel a little odd to see her standing there doing nothing. That's the problem with having superpowerful beings - they are hard to manage in the script so they usually end up being sidelined (just like Xavier was put in a coma in X1).
There are areas of the film that needed more thought put into them. Ratner certainly handled the action and special effects very well but other parts needed a more thoughtful approach.
This guy explains why I think X-Men 3 is one of my favourite superhero films of all time, watch from 35:31 minutes.
The score is just amazing, how could people completely hate this?
THE LAST STAND gets a bad rap because fans hated the fact that the comics weren't put onscreen (which had never happened in the X-Men films, and was never going to happen in that franchise), and because they don't understand film demands/issues like, oh, say, LOSING your Cyclops to SUPERMAN RETURNS. Wolverine starred because he'd been the star since X-MEN. Fans seem to think that if Bryan Singer had stuck around, Cyclops would have been one of the main characters, and we'd have gotten a more faithful Dark Phoenix story, and that somehow X3 would have undone the flaws of the previous two films. There were some legitimate suggestions that Brett Ratner isn't as talented a director in terms of actually shooting the film, but he handled the action, emotion, themes and performances quite well.
Xavier died because that was part of the plot. It required Wolverine and Storm to step up, come back to the X-Men and lead a Xavierless team made up of younger X-Men. And Xavier's death was a powerful sequence, and well handled.
Cyclops died because James Marsden wasn't available for the entire shoot, and because Fox exec Tom Rothman doesn't like the character, and because the plot then called for it as a motivating factor for Dark Phoenix, but given the limitations, his death was handled wonderfully. His sequence with Jean prior to his death has some of the best and most emotional moments of the franchise.
Rogue taking the cure? Come on, now. It's perfectly logical...and the cure is shown to be TEMPORARY at the end anyway.
There is so much to like about X3.
The inclusion of The Danger Room, complete with Sentinel moment.
Kelsey Grammer's Beast, and pretty much any sequence he's in, is fantastic.
Ellen Page's Kitty Pryde is fantastic.
Mystique has more importance than she has at any point in the franchise. Her "cure" scene is fantastic.
Warren Worthington has a role every bit as large and connected to the main story, as say, Pyro in X2.
Colossus didn't have a large role, but he had a much bigger role than in X2, and got some nice moments to shine.
Pyro VS Iceman threaded throughout the film.
Storm finally gets more to do, and displays more variety in power.
The Dark Phoenix concept is handled well, at least psychologically, and her power displays were immense.
Magneto was a heck of a threat, but also a grayer one than he had been in two previous films. He manipulated Jean, broke Juggernaut and Mystique out of containment and organized a terrorist group. He was very effective for the most part.
And beyond that, the themes are handled well, the character interactions are handled well.
The plot is a little straightforward, but the acting is good, the music is good, the action and effects are good. And perhaps most importantly...X3 may actually be a better written movie overall than X-MEN and X3in many respects. The story, despite being a straightforward one, is laid out in a more complex way, and there is more and better handled character development than in either of the previous two films.
Was it rushed? A little, but the movie that was scripted was still made. Could it have been longer, bigger, better, more faithful, etc? Probably, in several respects. But it had one of the largest budgets of any superhero film at that point, despite the franchise not being as big a draw as say, the Spider-Man films. But it was still a pretty big film, with huge action sequences and great effects. Not being everything it could have been doesn't make it a bad movie in the least. Fans are indeed way too hyperbolic about it.
This is my second favourite X-movie.
That or they needed so much time for the whole story they wanted to happen, happened.
She felt she was going to do more harm than good and that there was no turn back, so she asked herself to be killed.
So you don't remember Cyclops and Dr. Xavier dying?
FNSpidey is talking about X2.