Your Thoughts on Ending being Possibly Changed (The Squid)

[ScarecrowMan666]

I hope they keep the original ending, but I think if they altered it in such a way that synched up well with the rest of the story, it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[Saint]

(Homer's brain)
Money can be exchanged for goods and services.

Isn't it obvious? If America created the center for Extraspatial Studies and called down this thing on the world

I had forgotten about the Extraspatial Studies connection. Now that I think of it, weren't there rumours that somebody had seen the Extraspatial studies building on set? Might make the whole discussion moot.

 

[Mercurius]

But even though Snyder will make 100% GN on screen, he will still lose, as there won't be anything to look for in the movie.

If changes are made, they should be smart enough to make sense.

I belive there is a chance to get out of such situation.

Besides, I don't get why everybody can't calm down with the fact that they decided to use Doc as one of the main facets of Ozzy's plan. There is nothing bad at all. It's even better than to see some alien s***, which has never been determined as what it actually is. On the other hand, Manhattan is well-known from teh beginning of the story. He reveals himself as a very complex character, who loses his hope in human kind along with his humanity. He can be very well used as the provacation of further unpredictable events, which may lead to either real wors coming out of the final point of Cold War, or making all people unite and form one nation withou any previous culture or traditions, or religion/ethnic/sex/age difference

The whole problem is that the balance is much more delicate than you and Guard suppose, or accept.

If you don't like the alien, that's fine, it's your personal take on it. Moore wrote a different story, nonetheless, WITH the alien.

And not because of a personal liking to giant squids. t:

He couldn't involve Manhattan (which, on the other hand, would be also obvious and heavy-handed) without disqualifying his uninterested attitude at the end.

He doesn't lose his humanity. He's much more complex than that, and that's the whole point. His memories and his attachment to women affect him much. His conscience affects him when he gets furious, frightened and surprised with the questions on the TV show.

It is not that simple. He cannot "be used". As I keep repeating over and over here, Watchmen is much more delicate to handle than it's been supposed around here.

 

[Cinemaman]

The whole problem is that the balance is much more delicate than you and Guard suppose, or accept.

If you don't like the alien, that's fine, it's your personal take on it. Moore wrote a different story, nonetheless, WITH the alien.

And not because of a personal liking to giant squids. t:

He couldn't involve Manhattan (which, on the other hand, would be also obvious and heavy-handed) without disqualifying his uninterested attitude at the end.

He doesn't lose his humanity. He's much more complex than that, and that's the whole point. His memories and his attachment to women affect him much. His conscience affects him when he gets furious, frightened and surprised with the questions on the TV show.

It is not that simple. He cannot "be used". As I keep repeating over and over here, Watchmen is much more delicate to handle than it's been supposed around here.

It's not that I hate aliens, I just don't see the whole point of making something that can't be explained and use it as a driving force for the massive catastrophe.

I actually think Manhattan was his major facet of the plan.

We see all that in the earlier part of GN, but the end showed how uninterested he is in the fate of human kind.

Uhhhhh, you're really distracting, to be honest. You consider almost everything too delicate or complex to be explained or explored. But it just can't be so, because everything can be explained. We are here to not only discuss Watchmen, but also to explore it further than what it is on cover.

 

[Mercurius]

Uhhhhh, you're really distracting, to be honest. You consider almost everything too delicate or complex to be explained or explored. But it just can't be so, because everything can be explained. We are here to not only discuss Watchmen, but also to explore it further than what it is on cover.

In fact, distracting is:"Me like this, so, it doesn't matter how Alan Moore thought it to be".

I am discussing Watchmen, evaluating the weight of the changes.

By now, it seems to be, for the reasons I gave, subpar decisions in which they haven't put much thought.

 

[Darknightnomis]

If there is no squid, I supest there will also be some serious rewriting from the novel to conincide with the "Manhattan" framed type ending.

If no squid, then no island where the missing artist and pyschologist, manufacturers of the aliens are on etc. are hiding on.

And then thre will be no comedian seeing the island returning form a mission in which he told breaks in to tell Moloch which is why Veidt had to killed him.

 

[The Guard]

The whole problem is that the balance is much more delicate than you and Guard suppose, or accept.

I humbly disagree.

If you don't like the alien, that's fine, it's your personal take on it. Moore wrote a different story, nonetheless, WITH the alien.

I love the alien attack idea, as seemingly random and less-than-thematically relevant as it is to WATCHMEN. I love Veidt's entire plan in the original graphic novel. I'd love to see it realized onscreen, simply to see it. I love all it's intricacies, what it represents, hell, I love the design of the thing and what that suggests.

He couldn't involve Manhattan (which, on the other hand, would be also obvious and heavy-handed) without disqualifying his uninterested attitude at the end.

I see where you're going with this, but...prove it in relation to Dr. Manhattan's mindset at the end of WATCHMEN. This is more or less just an assumption, with little to base it on.

He doesn't lose his humanity. He's much more complex than that, and that's the whole point. His memories and his attachment to women affect him much. His conscience affects him when he gets furious, frightened and surprised with the questions on the TV show.

He doesn't lose his humanity entirely, no, but his perspective on it does clearly change. He becomes much more than human throughout the course

I fail to see how Dr. Manhattan agreeing with Veidt's plan even though he'd be blamed makes him somehow less complex compared to the graphic novel's version. If anything, it makes him more complex, and throws his ideas about morality and justice and humanity itself into sharp relief. It also gives Manhattan's decision to go along with Veidt that much more dramatic and thematic weight.

He doesn't lose his humanity entirely (well, that can be argued), but he does become less and less interested in black and white morality as the graphic novel wears on. As long as the world is saved, what makes you think Manhattan will care whether he was blamed? The moral checkmate remains. Exposing Veidt dooms Earth. A lie is a lie, and Dr. Manhattan, if he's willing to let veidt create a faux alien invasion, likely isn't going to bat an eye at being framed. Remember, Adrian attempts to kill him and does manage to disperse his atoms. And he still goes along with the plan.

It is not that simple. He cannot "be used". As I keep repeating over and over here, Watchmen is much more delicate to handle than it's been supposed around here.

You keep saying that. What's the delicate balance that would be upset?

We see all that in the earlier part of GN, but the end showed how uninterested he is in the fate of human kind.

Dr. Manhattan's scientific advances do have something to do with the creation of the alien, as I recall. Genetics and teleportation, etc.

 

[The Guard]

The whole problem is that the balance is much more delicate than you and Guard suppose, or accept.

I humbly disagree.

If you don't like the alien, that's fine, it's your personal take on it. Moore wrote a different story, nonetheless, WITH the alien.

I love the alien attack idea, as seemingly random and less-than-thematically relevant as it is to WATCHMEN. I love Veidt's entire plan in the original graphic novel. I'd love to see it realized onscreen, simply to see it. I love all it's intricacies, what it represents, hell, I love the design of the thing and what that suggests.

He couldn't involve Manhattan (which, on the other hand, would be also obvious and heavy-handed) without disqualifying his uninterested attitude at the end.

I see where you're going with this, but...prove it in relation to Dr. Manhattan's mindset at the end of WATCHMEN. This is more or less just an assumption, with little to base it on.

He doesn't lose his humanity. He's much more complex than that, and that's the whole point. His memories and his attachment to women affect him much. His conscience affects him when he gets furious, frightened and surprised with the questions on the TV show.

He doesn't lose his humanity entirely, no, but his perspective on it does clearly change. He becomes much more than human throughout the course

I fail to see how Dr. Manhattan agreeing with Veidt's plan even though he'd be blamed makes him somehow less complex compared to the graphic novel's version. If anything, it makes him more complex, and throws his ideas about morality and justice and humanity itself into sharp relief. It also gives Manhattan's decision to go along with Veidt that much more dramatic and thematic weight.

He doesn't lose his humanity entirely (well, that can be argued, although I don't believe he does), but he does become less and less interested in black and white morality as the graphic novel wears on. As long as the world is saved, what makes you think Manhattan will care whether he was blamed? The moral checkmate remains. Exposing Veidt dooms Earth. A lie is a lie, and Dr. Manhattan, if he's willing to let veidt create a faux alien invasion, likely isn't going to bat an eye at being framed. Remember, Adrian attempts to kill him and does manage to disperse his atoms. And he still goes along with the plan.

It is not that simple. He cannot "be used". As I keep repeating over and over here, Watchmen is much more delicate to handle than it's been supposed around here.

You keep saying that. What's the delicate balance that would be upset?

We see all that in the earlier part of GN, but the end showed how uninterested he is in the fate of human kind.

Dr. Manhattan's scientific advances do have something to do with the creation of the alien, as I recall. Genetics and teleportation, etc.

 

[moguy]

http://io9.com/5069493/watchmen-ending-may-be-closer-to-the-comic-than-you-think

A little more of the same.

I'm all for the squid. Fingers crossed.

 

[moguy]

For those to lazy to click the above link:

*************************

Watchmen Ending May Be Closer to the Comic Than You Think

Will the Watchmen movie retain the original comic book ending or won't it? We told you about the recent Portland, OR preview screening of Watchmen, and the reaction of fans upon discovering that the ending of the classic comic series by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons had been changed by director Zack Snyder for cinema audiences. Now we're hearing that everything may not be as cut and dried as it may seem . . . spoilers ahead.

Rich Johnston's Lying In The Gutters column is reporting that the preview's climax - which saw the comic's pan-dimnsional squid replaced by a New York destroyed by a nuclear explosion - may have been a test by the moviemakers to see whether or not they could get away with deviating from the source material:

I'm told that this screening was intentionally leaked to the fan press - with the exact time and place posted online with details of how to evade the security. The intent is to gauge fan reaction to a squidless ending for Watchmen and see what they can get away with, believing it to be more suitable for a more mainstream audience. The FX for the squid has been completed however.

If true, this is an interesting development - and one that may implicate Collider.com as a studio patsy, if not willing participant in the experiment.

We'll wait and see what reports come from the second screening to see whether the squid makes its reappearance.

 

[Mercurius]

I see where you're going with this, but...prove it in relation to Dr. Manhattan's mindset at the end of WATCHMEN. This is more or less just an assumption, with little to base it on.

Let's change this game for a while, shall we?

Prove that it doesn't change things, because, the way it is, I see no base whatsoever in your constant questioning.

Elaborate your question a lil' bit, put some thought to it. t:

 

[luke1234]

For those to lazy to click the above link:

*************************

Watchmen Ending May Be Closer to the Comic Than You Think

Will the Watchmen movie retain the original comic book ending or won't it? We told you about the recent Portland, OR preview screening of Watchmen, and the reaction of fans upon discovering that the ending of the classic comic series by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons had been changed by director Zack Snyder for cinema audiences. Now we're hearing that everything may not be as cut and dried as it may seem . . . spoilers ahead.

Rich Johnston's Lying In The Gutters column is reporting that the preview's climax - which saw the comic's pan-dimnsional squid replaced by a New York destroyed by a nuclear explosion - may have been a test by the moviemakers to see whether or not they could get away with deviating from the source material:

I'm told that this screening was intentionally leaked to the fan press - with the exact time and place posted online with details of how to evade the security. The intent is to gauge fan reaction to a squidless ending for Watchmen and see what they can get away with, believing it to be more suitable for a more mainstream audience. The FX for the squid has been completed however.

If true, this is an interesting development - and one that may implicate Collider.com as a studio patsy, if not willing participant in the experiment.

We'll wait and see what reports come from the second screening to see whether the squid makes its reappearance.

very interesting

 

[Closerframe]

Keep the concept of the overall damage the squid had done, whether that mean replace it with a giant atomic bomb or widespread disease I don't care as long as the ending remains faithful to the novel.

 

[Hurm...]

For those to lazy to click the above link:

*************************

Watchmen Ending May Be Closer to the Comic Than You Think

Will the Watchmen movie retain the original comic book ending or won't it? We told you about the recent Portland, OR preview screening of Watchmen, and the reaction of fans upon discovering that the ending of the classic comic series by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons had been changed by director Zack Snyder for cinema audiences. Now we're hearing that everything may not be as cut and dried as it may seem . . . spoilers ahead.

Rich Johnston's Lying In The Gutters column is reporting that the preview's climax - which saw the comic's pan-dimnsional squid replaced by a New York destroyed by a nuclear explosion - may have been a test by the moviemakers to see whether or not they could get away with deviating from the source material:

I'm told that this screening was intentionally leaked to the fan press - with the exact time and place posted online with details of how to evade the security. The intent is to gauge fan reaction to a squidless ending for Watchmen and see what they can get away with, believing it to be more suitable for a more mainstream audience. The FX for the squid has been completed however.

If true, this is an interesting development - and one that may implicate Collider.com as a studio patsy, if not willing participant in the experiment.

We'll wait and see what reports come from the second screening to see whether the squid makes its reappearance.

Everything just doesn't add up. Multiple screenings would make more sense.

Anyone know when the next screening will be and where?

 

[the_tortel]

Everything just doesn't add up. Multiple screenings would make more sense.

Anyone know when the next screening will be and where?

I'd pay cash money to know that, even with the squidless ending

 

[Mercurius]

Keep the concept of the overall damage the squid had done, whether that mean replace it with a giant atomic bomb or widespread disease I don't care as long as the ending remains faithful to the novel.

Ehhh.. I don't know exactly how to tell you this, but if you change the squid for the nuclear crap, the movie is not faithful to the novel.

The squid is not only nice visuals and a cheap trick easily changeable. It has a good amount of meaning, and ties the story of the characters, mainly Veidt and Manhattan.

Wanting more info, please, go to the other thread where people are endlessly discussing it.

 

[Cinemaman]

In fact, distracting is:"Me like this, so, it doesn't matter how Alan Moore thought it to be".

I am discussing Watchmen, evaluating the weight of the changes.

By now, it seems to be, for the reasons I gave, subpar decisions in which they haven't put much thought.

Don't take it seriously, lol.

But I see no reasons given by you. You only stated one point - it can't be changed, as changes will cause other changes to occur until the whole stull will be replaced.

It's absurd.

 

[Mercurius]

Don't take it seriously, lol.

But I see no reasons given by you. You only stated one point - it can't be changed, as changes will cause other changes to occur until the whole stull will be replaced.

It's absurd.

Ouch! Man, you really need to get some reading and comprehension exercises.

I didn't say that.

It's almost a miracle of misreading that you think I did.

 

[Cinemaman]

Ouch! Man, you really need to get some reading and comprehension exercises.

I didn't say that.

It's almost a miracle of misreading that you think I did.

Nice argument

 

[Mercurius]

Nice argument

Thanks.

 

[The Guard]

Let's change this game for a while, shall we?

Prove that it doesn't change things, because, the way it is, I see no base whatsoever in your constant questioning.

It's not so much a game, as me wanting to know why the hell you think that things would suddenly just change for the characters. There's nothing to suggest that Dr. Manhattan's mindset would just change, simply because he's been framed. He was framed before, did that change his actions? No. He still left Earth, and became distanced from humanity.

Obviously I cannot concretely prove what a fictional character would do, but I can use examples from the novel to make some educated guesses.

Manhattan is leaving Earth at the end of the novel, despite obviously realizing that Earth may be doomed, despite what Veidt has done with manhattan's work, and despite what Veidt has done, period. Dr. Manhattan, by the end of WATCHMEN, has obviously become distanced from humanity, and moved to an entirely new plane of appreciation of it. He has essentially decided to become a God.

I don't particularly care if I can prove it, but I would like to know what makes you think that the character who didn't care about the original plot where millions of innocents died and were driven insane, or that Veidt tried to kill him and succeeded in blowing him to pieces...would suddenly stop supporting Veidt, or care any more simply because Veidt framed him to effect his plan?

Veidt ALREADY framed him once before. Remember the whole cancer thing? Manhattan doesn't particularly seem to care about this, at any point in the graphic novel. Do you see any indication that Manhattan would suddenly decide not to go along with another frame job? Why do you think he would suddenly be interested in what was going on? When he clearly hasn't been anything but scientifically fascinated throughout most of the entire graphic novel.

 

[Mercurius]

It's not so much a game, as me wanting to know why the hell you think that things would suddenly just change for the characters. There's nothing to suggest that Dr. Manhattan's mindset would just change, simply because he's been framed. He was framed before, did that change his actions? No. He still left Earth, and became distanced from humanity.

Obviously I cannot concretely prove what a fictional character would do, but I can use examples from the novel to make some educated guesses.

Manhattan is leaving Earth at the end of the novel, despite obviously realizing that Earth may be doomed, despite what Veidt has done with manhattan's work, and despite what Veidt has done, period. Dr. Manhattan, by the end of WATCHMEN, has obviously become distanced from humanity, and moved to an entirely new plane of appreciation of it. He has essentially decided to become a God.

I don't particularly care if I can prove it, but I would like to know what makes you think that the character who didn't care about the original plot where millions of innocents died and were driven insane, or that Veidt tried to kill him and succeeded in blowing him to pieces...would suddenly stop supporting Veidt, or care any more simply because Veidt framed him to effect his plan?

Veidt ALREADY framed him once before. Remember the whole cancer thing? Manhattan doesn't particularly seem to care about this, at any point in the graphic novel. Do you see any indication that Manhattan would suddenly decide not to go along with another frame job? Why do you think he would suddenly be interested in what was going on? When he clearly hasn't been anything but scientifically fascinated throughout most of the entire graphic novel.

Ok, now I can do more than just guess.

"When he clearly hasn't been anything but scientifically fascinated throughout most of the entire graphic novel".

You wrote it about Manhattan. I completely disagree with you on it, and on many other things through your reasoning.

Manhattan is quite human and sensitive about his memories. Reminiscent of his loving work in clocks and their forms (when working with his father), he builds that magnificent glass palace in Mars.

He reacts as a human being in the TV show. He gets annoyed, worried, fearful, furious. He also has that peculiar connection to women.

Well, you couldn't prove it doesn't change things, I mean, the changing of the finale. In the Portland thread many sound arguments, not only from me, point to a number of problems.

The tight chess played by Veidt becomes a simple framing up, which stresses the "anti-vigilante plot", that was over by then, because Veidt had already covered his movements.

The multiple assets, that you evidently prefer, changes, for me, a very smart plan to avoid the disaster of nuclear war INTO a nuclear war, smashing many cities. I find it sorely dumb.

But, in spite of all this, I don't think Manhattan should be handled as just one more Oppenheimer metaphor: "Unaware scientist contributes to something monstruous that scapes his control".

And he being framed before is one more reason not to use it again at the end.

More: changing the complex situation of the squid, Snyder has a great dilemma to solve.

How to make this über mass murdering process turn into good will among men? As I've seen around here, it will be more like political pressure. That's also awful.

Because the squid provided the illusion of alien attack, uniting everybody to face the common "enemy"; the shockwaves discharged a psychic sensation of helplessness that reinforced the good will hypotesis.

And the thing is not Manhattan leaving Earth anyway: it is Manhattan leaving Earth after his experience on Mars, Laurie's desperate argument changing him; his sensation of surprise, making him learn it again; his indifferent judgment of Veidt's actions + his decision of creating life-forms.

It is all connected. If he leaves Earth because he was framed, that changes the balance between him and Veidt at the end.

We read the book differently, and that's the thing.

Now, you certainly will disagree at all that, there's no problem, I understand what you want.

Let's leave it at that, because we are beginning to be a tad repetitive, and I really don't accept the effect the changes will do to the ending.

I can't find it intelligent, nor necessary story-wise, nor good.

 

[The Guard]

Mercurius...

I don't have time to respond completely, but I will. Couple points.

1. You don't seem to recognize, or are discounting, that Dr. Manhattan undergoes an obvious character evolution in WATCHMEN that puts him far beyond petty human concerns by the end of the novel. His feelings about morality also evolve throughout the book. Though he cares about Laurie, and about human life, he obviously cares in the light of cold, scientific logic, because that's what makes him care again on Mars, and that's how he expresses his emotions toward the end of the novel. There are many clues to this throughout the book. He has become the watchmaker (god) by the time the book "ends". You need to explain to me why, after undergoing this arc, he suddenly would decide he gives a damn how Veidt treats him in framing him, after he's obviously not cared about his work being used and being blown to bits as well.

2. You keep saying that Veidt's movie plan is "simple". On what planet is that a simple plot?

3. The anti-vigilante sentiment was obviously NOT gone in WATCHMEN, because vigilantes were still outlawed, people were afraid of them, etc.

 

[Closerframe]

Ehhh.. I don't know exactly how to tell you this, but if you change the squid for the nuclear crap, the movie is not faithful to the novel.

The squid is not only nice visuals and a cheap trick easily changeable. It has a good amount of meaning, and ties the story of the characters, mainly Veidt and Manhattan.

Wanting more info, please, go to the other thread where people are endlessly discussing it.

Well in the novel the idea of the squid originated from the "Tales of the Black Freighter" with this not being included in the film i feel the squid is pointless. As long as they have something that relates to something abnormal that causes the deaths I'm fine with the changing like I heard a rumor that it will have something to do with power from Dr. Manhattan which Adrian took advantage of during Manhattan's exile.

 

[Mercurius]

Well in the novel the idea of the squid originated from the "Tales of the Black Freighter" with this not being included in the film i feel the squid is pointless. As long as they have something that relates to something abnormal that causes the deaths I'm fine with the changing like I heard a rumor that it will have something to do with power from Dr. Manhattan which Adrian took advantage of during Manhattan's exile.

The squid is not black freighter material, and is SO MUCH MORE than what you just dismissed carelessly that I can't even start to describe how wrong you are .

I suggest you read back some of the discussion (not all of it, which can be very tedious) just to get a glimpse of how complicated the thing can get when inspected in closerframe.