If they can make the squid face guy in "Pirates" look good...

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<okay,...everyone let out a collective sigh because I'm rehashing old stuff>

Just got back from Pirates and have to say I couldn't help but thinking the entire movie, -if they can make the squid face guy in Pirates look so great (and he appears to be CGI in every frame all while utilizing a real actor too) - then why can't they do the same with Thing? This quid guy even had the round Banjamin Grim blue eyes. Heck,..every sea villain in the movie seemed to be CGI. I can see them having Chiklis with a bit of CGI in each frame to make him into what is impossible to do with only makeup. Why can't this be done? No,...more importantly,...why hasn't someone done this?!

People jump on me all you want. They can really fix this next movie. CGI Silver Surfer should be fine. Fantasti-car will be great. But fix The Thing too.

I'm going to keep stating and restating and keeping this in people's (and hopefully someone in charge) minds until I hear a change will be made for the better.

I'm convinced Story isn't the problem....it's execs at Fox.
 
Not sure why this posted twice. Sorry. Perhaps a mod can fix it please.
 
Well...A CGI Thing?!Maybe fix some details but yet the suit.
 
The Silver Surfer should be so much easier to do than those creey guys in Pirates of the Cari 2.

They should be able to do it in their sleep.
 
CGI thing ala Pirates all the way. I e-mailed Tim Story on this and begged him not to replace the suit but go with CGI for all the big action sequences so The Thing can be seen in action instead of running like he has lead boots on. I know he read my e-mail because he e-mailed me back and answered another question within the text but no mention of the CGI thing. I also suggested to add the brow back and use Ben's trip into the transformation chamber to explain it.
 
You go Advanced Dark. You've evidently got some kind of cool hook up with the creative people and you're pro active. You're out there alerting the man of the problem for us. Tell him to take a chance and do the right thing with Thing. We'll love him for it.
 
I'm very interested in how something like that would work.

As I was watching Pirates, I found myself wondering exactly how they did it. I was guessing that they were using a combination of prosthetics with CGI, but from the photo Hunter Rider posted a little while ago, it looks like it was primarily CGI with motion capture.

One thing Pirates had going for it was very dark lighting. Also Davey Jones had relatively limited screen time. I expect Ben to have more screen time and that combined with a lower budget and other effects that have to be done could be a problem.

Pirates (and King Kong) proves it can be done though.
 
Willie Lumpkin said:
Pirates (and King Kong) proves it can be done though.

Yes, they do.
Ben Grimm deserves to be fully realized on the big screen. The technology finally exists to do just that, but there's been no indication that they're going to take advantage of it.

So far FF2 is sounding like a considerable improvement over FF1. But no matter what else they do right, if they never evolve Ben further, into his more recognizable look, I will remain dissatisfied.
I've waited all my life to see the Thing on the silver screen, and while I found Chiklis' performance near-perfect and the make-up adequate... It still just didn't cut it for this fan. Far from it.
 
Heres a great article on how they did CG Davy Jones.:)

From VFXWORLD:

Looting CG Treasure From Dead Man’s Chest — Part 1
ILM raises the character animation bar with Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chest, and Bill Desowitz gets an overview from John Knoll and Hal Hickel.
By Bill Desowitz

[ Posted on July 14, 2006 ]


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With the help of the Imocap system, Bill Nighy’s creepy Davy Jones is the next great CG performance after Gollum and King Kong. All images © 2006 Disney Enterprises Inc and Jerry Bruckheimer, Inc. Photo credit: ILM.

When undertaking back-to-back sequels to Disney’s surprise blockbuster, Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, Industrial Light & Magic quickly realized that it needed to significantly raise the bar. Not only did the shot count triple from 324 to 979 on this summer’s record-breaking Dead Man’s Chest, but also the CG creatures were more complex and closer to the action. This required several R&D wrinkles and getting the creature pipeline up to speed on the new Zeno platform in San Francisco.
As most of you have seen by now, the results of the character animation are very impressive. They’ve already begun talking about the creepy Davy Jones as the next great CG peformance beyond Weta’s Gollum and King Kong. Lord of the Deep and commander of the mysterious Flying Dutchman ghost ship, Jones is a delicious mutation: part human and part squid, with a beard full of wiggly tentacles, and crab-like claws.

Unable to rely on traditional MoCap or hand animation, ILM created an innovative new system called Imocap that allowed onset and on location motion capture to elicit the most believable look and performance possible out of actor Bill Nighy.

“The characters required a lot of careful examination of human performances and then trying to combine that with the animation,” explains animation supervisor Hal Hickel. “We knew that there were going to be actors cast to play Davy Jones and his crew, and that those actors would be on set in the plates that we were going to be put those CG characters into and that somehow we had to extract the motion of the performances without having to reshoot later. We didn’t want to bring the mocap stage onto the set. So the R&D and MoCap groups came up with a solution: special [sensor-studded] suits that would be worn by Bill Nighy and other actors playing his crew. We would take reference cameras onto the sets and untethered cameras out on location with lightweight tripods and position them at angles off of what the main taking camera was seeing. This allowed us to track the movements and provided great data from the hero plates with the actors in them, casting their real shadows and making good eye contact with the live actors, and then we were able to extract their motion and apply it to our CG characters and put those characters right on top of the actors. There’s still a lot of animation artistry in there because there’s a lot of interpretation. This is just about getting the skeletal motion of the character; we still did all of the facial animation by hand [in Zeno].”


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A second R&D project at ILM involved creating Davy Jones’ tentacle beard itself. Many tests were done to get the behaviors right.


But more about Imocap in part two. Suffice it to say, Davy Jones is the most complex and human looking CG character in Dead Man’s Chest — and he’s all-CG. The animators incorporated as much of Nighy’s face as possible. However, the eyes proved to be an interesting test case. “As a backup, [director] Gore [Verbinski] asked us to put some makeup in a T-zone around his eyes and mouth, in case he wanted to do a blend for an extreme close-up,” Hickel continues. “But we never used it. We knew it would be difficult, but we figured we could get there pretty quickly. What was just as difficult was the whole spark of life. There’s always that last percent of realism that’s hardest to capture. The closer you get to the goal of it being real enough that people will stop worrying about it and thinking about it, the more glaring the omissions are. On top of which, there’s the gray area of his performance. The thing about Bill was he wasn’t a stone-faced villain. It was a very mercurial performance — he was constantly changing his expression and delivery. Nobody expected it. Every scene we’d stare at it and study it. I know there are animators that are leery of any technique that takes away some of their authorship. I totally understand that. Pure animation is wonderful. But I also think the collaboration between an animator and a live actor is an exciting thing too. I imagine it’s what makeup artists feel.”
Zeno added an additional challenge. ILM came into Dead Man’s Chest with only a small portion of its creature pipeline function intact. War of the Worlds and The Island, the two previous projects done with Zeno, were primarily hard surface works. The creature work on those didn’t need cloth, sim, flesh or hair. A large part of the effort was re-enabling the pipeline, particularly the facial animation.

Meanwhile, the second R&D project involved the tentacle beard itself. “Our R&D folks worked with James Tooley, our sim guru [creature development supervisor], and Karin Derlich [creature technical director], who came up with behaviors,” Hickel adds. “And we’d do tests and I’d say, ‘This one is too tentacly and this one feels too much like an elephant’s trunk and this one feels too much like a snake.’ We would look at tons of octopus references. After we got it, then those behaviors were added to the solver through what we call ‘Joint Motors,’ so all the tentacles were divided into little joint segments and each segment was essentially a little motor that was directed to move this way or that way. So those joint motor impulses were sent out at the same time the tentacles were receiving force information: I need to swing this way, I need to swing that way… and so it would all happen together.


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The crew of The Flying Dutchmen features a cast of characters with visual references to the ocean and its creatures, including coral, sea sponges, barnacles, mussels, hammerheads and puffer fish.


“Once we added those behaviors to our sim engine, the last thing we needed was something called ‘Sticktion,’ which is a combination of friction and stickiness. The problem was that without Sticktion, the tentacles would just slide onto each other. We really wanted them to be this heap of viscous tubes that would stick to each other and stick to his chest. And the ones at the bottom of the stack would stick there in a big matte. The biggest ones out in front that hang from his chin and moustache-like tentacles could really swing around.”
“Imagine a piece of spaghetti sticking to a leather jacket,” suggests visual effects supervisor John Knoll. “That was the effect I wanted to get. R&D added this subtle stickiness to the engine.”

“The great thing,” Hickel continues, “is that as complicated as it was, once Karin came up with basic settings for all of the controls, the sim artists got up and running very quickly. I’m pretty amazed by that, actually, because this was very stressful for me. Back in December, when we really didn’t have this working yet, there was no plan B. We couldn’t animate it by hand and we looked at other sim possibilities, but they didn’t achieve what we had in mind. There are more than 200 shots and 15 minutes of screen time of Davy and we had only one artist who knows how to do this.”

With as many as 50 animators working together on a total of 18 CG characters, there were plenty of technical and artistic challenges. “What makes these characters so complicated is that they are encrusted with sea life and we had to figure out ways to cover them with barnacles and such,” Hickel observes. “We wrote tools that the modelers used where they had a sea life picker, where they could pick a mussel or a barnacle. As our model supervisor, Jeff Campbell, said, it was a little like flower arranging. And they also used ZBrush for displacement textures for the sea life and for the characters themselves and our usual suite of modeling and paint tools.”

The crew of The Flying Dutchmen include Ogilvey, who has a sea sponge head; Palafico, whose head is a red fan coral and very translucent; Koleniko, in which one side of his face is a puffer fish and can puff up with spines; and Knoll’s favorite: a crab-like creature whose head rotates in and out of the shell.

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The Kraken’s tentacles modeled in Maya. The creature was keyframe animated with some flesh sim enhancements in Zeno, courtesy of the new creature pipeline.


Then there’s the Kraken, the mythological squid monster that most are familiar with from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, which plays a prominent role in Dead Man’s Chest as the instrument of Jones’ destruction. Tentacles were crucial here as well. Modeled in Maya, the Kraken was keyframe animated with some flesh sim enhancements in Zeno, courtesy of the new creature pipeline. They even had to procedurally tweak the suckers on each row of tentacles because they were too clean looking, so they randomly replaced suckers that were more rough and worn looking.
Utilizing ILM’s new fluid dynamics engine, developed in cooperation with the Stanford University research program, Dead Man’s Chest, like Poseidon, contains improved CG water, in which nifty algorithms are put through multiple processors. And thanks to Zeno, which has been described as “Maya on steroids,” you can introduce particle controls, Soft Body, Rigid Body controls and other techniques.

“We started out in parallel with Poseidon, but they got into a bit of a crisis and we loaned them my entire water crew,” Knoll admits. “They wrapped in April and I got them back to finish my shots. They really pushed the envelope. The development they did at the end of Poseidon really paid off here. We did a lot of difficult water shots right up to the last day. The crew really knew what nobs to turn to get it to look good. We used CG water around the bases of the tentacles when they’re sloshing back and forth underwater. The Flying Dutchman travels underwater and reaches the surface like a submarine, so those shots were done with CG water as well, and the Dutchman is 380 feet long. We got realistic droplet size and realistic dispersion of particles.”

The scenes on Cannibal Island, where Captain Jack Sparrow (Johnny Depp) narrowly escapes, contain a large number of shots where you see different variations of the same view under different lighting conditions, so Knoll and matte supervisor Susumu Yukuhiro needed to think about a 3D solution. “We saw ads for a product called View. It’s designed for organic landscapes and getting realistic renders. We started playing around with it and it became our primary tool for big, exotic landscapes.”

Overall, Knoll believes Dead Man’s Chest takes character animation another step forward at ILM, especially considering Nighy’s performance. “There are not as many shots numerically as on Sith, but it’s [a greater accomplishment] in terms of the amount of shots in the time that we had. Sith had 2,400 shots in about two years and this had 1,000 shots in about five months, but the average shot complexity was higher than on Star Wars.”

Bill Desowitz is editor of VFXWorld.
Source: http://www.vfxworld.com/index.php?atype=articles&id=2940
 
Continued...

Looting CG Treasure From Dead Man&#8217;s Chest &#8212; Part 2
Bill Desowitz concludes our two-part coverage of Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man&#8217;s Chest with a report on ILM&#8217;s innovative Imocap system.
By Bill Desowitz

[ Posted on July 17, 2006 ]

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ILM&#8217;s new Imocap was used to create the CG characters of Davy Jones and his crew in Dead Man&#8217;s Chest. All images © 2006 Disney Enterprises Inc and Jerry Bruckheimer Inc. Photo credit: ILM.


Tasked by director Gore Verbinski to come up with more complex and authentic-looking CG characters in Dead Man&#8217;s Chest, since Davy Jones and the crew of The Flying Dutchman would be interacting closely with the live actors, Industrial Light & Magic put its R&D team to work on a new incarnation of its proprietary motion capture system, dubbed Imocap. The results of Jones are so impressive, in fact, that people have already begun talking about the sea-encrusted villain with his creepy tentacle beard as the next great CG performance breakthrough.


''We&#8217;ve done a lot of computer vision work here in R&D for the last several years and we were hoping to apply that to motion capture work outside of the MoCap studio some day,&#8221; remarks Steve Sullivan, director of R&D at ILM. &#8220;Dead Man&#8217;s Chest provided an opportunity for [remote MoCap] and a clear case of [requiring] that same quality on set where we needed those actors together in a scene for those hero performances. So we worked with the production team to nail down constraints of what we could get away with and what&#8217;s off-limits.&#8221;
Imocap became a new protocol for measuring the actors and obtaining data during the actual shoot for the creation of skeletal motion in the computer. The software contained added functionality and new ways of tracking data. Special sensor-studded suits for the actors playing CG characters were created, which were more comfortable than typical MoCap outfits, as the actors were required to wear them in a variety of simple and treacherous conditions. &#8220;&#8230;On set, I wore a gray suit, which had reference points comprised of white bubbles and strips of black-and-white material, so that when they come to interpret your physical performance, they&#8217;re better placed to do so,&#8221; adds Bill Nighy, who plays Davy Jones.

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Early concept art for Davy Jones.

According to Sullivan, &#8220;the suits needed to be &#8216;dignified.&#8217; They had to be comfortable and not look &#8216;stupid.&#8217; There were a few iterations of the material itself, which started out as a cotton blend but ended up being a stretchy, semi formfitting material. And we arrived at a neutral gray to help with our lighting calculations... and we used some markers and bands to help with the capture process itself. Those needed to be comfortable as well. Cameras were based on location and shooting conditions.&#8221;

&#8220;For shots where we used reference cameras, Kevin Wooley, our Imocap lead, housed some cameras in watertight enclosures and wired them to a computer for storing the images,&#8221; explains animation supervisor Hal Hickel. &#8220;This was great for the onset stuff. For beaches and jungles, we used untethered cameras with lightweight tripods. They were a little more trouble on the backend because they weren&#8217;t synchronized to each other, but both solutions worked well, and will continue to be used on the third Pirates movie [At World&#8217;s End].&#8221;


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Davy Jones and the crew of The Flying Dutchman interact closely with live actors throughout the film.


Thus, by integrating the MoCap process with the actual shoot &#8212; providing the animators with hero plates with the actors in them, casting their real shadows and making good eye contact with the live actors &#8212; they were able to create, for instance, a more expressive, nuanced performance out of the maniacal Davy Jones, with the help, of course, of Nighy.
&#8220;We had new ways for the computer to analyze the images,&#8221; Sullivan continues. &#8220;The software piggy backed on MARS, the matchmoving [and tracking] solver. It understood what the actors could and couldn&#8217;t do. Our process is more holistic than traditional MoCap. We try to capture the whole body at once from different kinds of information, and that allows the flexibility to use many kinds of cameras and to work with partial information sometimes.

&#8220;The product of Imocap comes out as an animated skeleton, just like regular MoCap, and the animators do with that whatever they want, with artists in the middle running the post process. Sometimes they&#8217;ll need to cheat the body to get a better composition of the image. But the advantage is that the animators are overriding things and animating for performance reasons rather than just getting the basic physics and timing down. That all comes from the actor.&#8221;

Although ILM is currently developing its own facial performance capture system, Hickel determined this wasn&#8217;t the time to introduce yet another R&D component. &#8220;We have a lot of confidence in our facial animation, so we decided to do it by hand. The creature pipeline was being moved over to Zeno and most of the faces were different enough from the actors anyway.&#8221;


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During the actual shoot on beaches and jungles, ILM used untethered cameras with lightweight tripods to measure the actors and obtain data that was then used to create the characters&#8217; skeletal motions in the computer.


Hickel adds that there&#8217;s still a lot of animation artistry at work. &#8220;The CG characters weren&#8217;t 1:1 proportional copies of the actors, so there&#8217;s a lot of reinterpreting their motion and figuring out how to get a good performance out of a guy who&#8217;s head is made of coral. We had a little more freedom with some of the background actors because their faces are so different, such as Ogilvy, whose head is basically a giant sea sponge and he has one eye in some weird orifice. Davy Jones is the most complex and human-looking CG character. He&#8217;s 100% CG &#8212; even his eyes. We knew it would be difficult, but we figured we could get there pretty quickly. What was just as difficult was the whole spark of life. The thing about Bill was he wasn&#8217;t a stone-faced villain. It was a very mercurial performance &#8212; he was constantly changing his expression and delivery. Nobody expected it. Every scene we&#8217;d stare at it and study it.&#8221;
Concludes visual effects supervisor John Knoll: &#8220;For us, it&#8217;s taken character animation another step forward with Davy Jones and how nice Bill Nighy&#8217;s performance comes through.&#8221;

Bill Desowitz is editor of VFXWorld.
Source: http://www.vfxworld.com/?atype=articles&id=2941
 
Is Rick Baker doing the effects for FF2 b/c if he isn't...FORGET IT! no one will make comparably great effects for that price!
 
Prognosticator said:
Is Rick Baker doing the effects for FF2 b/c if he isn't...FORGET IT! no one will make comparably great effects for that price!

John Bruno is!!! He is a great SFX supervisor.

One of the top 10 sfx supervisor in the industry. :up:
 
Thanks Retro! I think that's certainly the wave of the future. It combines the best elements of CGI and traditional acting with large amounts of make-up.

You should be able to get much better movement with something like this than you can with someone in a 70 pound suit, and you can "touch up" elements that don't look quite right to start.

We know/strongly suspect they'll use something like this for SS, so it will be interesting to see if they use it at least partially for Ben. I think Michael C. would much rather wear a gray suit than the thing suit if he was sure they could make it look right and capture his emotions.

Cost could be an issue for the next few years. ILM is as good as it gets.
 
Your welcome Willie.:)

If they can get people as good as ILM i think Chiklis can be convinced. Fox will need to be willing to make open up their wallets though.
 
antariksh said:
John Bruno is!!! He is a great SFX supervisor.

One of the top 10 sfx supervisor in the industry. :up:

If they plan to make SS all digital, they'll need better than a "top 10" guy, they need a top 2 or 3 supervisor!
 
Prognosticator said:
If they plan to make SS all digital, they'll need better than a "top 10" guy, they need a top 2 or 3 supervisor!


No they don't all they need to is license the new Mo-cap software from ILM and get some good CGi artists....

The Mocap they used in pirate only needed 2 cameras, it sounds kinda of cheap to do, and the CGI will be cheaper too because they don't need animators to make simple movements like walking, and they can concentrate more on the face.
 
Remember Michael Chiklis was the one that DID not want to use CGI in the first movie, he wanted to be in the rubber suite.

THe studio wanted CGI from the get go.


Now with the new Davy Jones Mo-cap he might change his mind, but when the studio sees the estimated Bill for the davy jones style CGI I bet they will use the suite anyway.
 
Prognosticator said:
If they plan to make SS all digital, they'll need better than a "top 10" guy, they need a top 2 or 3 supervisor!

I think john bruno is talented enough and is one of the best in the industry. He has done something similar to silver surfer aka terinator 2 villain.

HE will DELIVER!!!
 
if FF2 comes in under 2hrs, it will be a complete WAIST of the FF(again) and the idea of bringing SS/Galactus to the big screen!
 
Prognosticator said:
if FF2 comes in under 2hrs, it will be a complete WAIST of the FF(again) and the idea of bringing SS/Galactus to the big screen!

that would be "WASTE"...;)
 
chaos123x said:
Remember Michael Chiklis was the one that DID not want to use CGI in the first movie, he wanted to be in the rubber suite.

THe studio wanted CGI from the get go.


Now with the new Davy Jones Mo-cap he might change his mind, but when the studio sees the estimated Bill for the davy jones style CGI I bet they will use the suite anyway.

Honestly I've always wondered if Michael C's insistence that he demanded a suit was a bit of political gamesmanship. I suspect that the studio always intended to do it as a suit and his opinion was of limited consequence . . . though I'm sure he's being honest when he talks about how he likes the idea of a suit so that his emotions show through.

This technology adds an interesting twist though. In a way, this technology could provide better emotional expression. Think about it, which would better convey MC's acting - him twisting and contorting his face so that his expressions show through a thick layer of foam rubber, or him simply acting and having the CGI people map those expressions to a computer model?
 
Willie Lumpkin said:
Honestly I've always wondered if Michael C's insistence that he demanded a suit was a bit of political gamesmanship. I suspect that the studio always intended to do it as a suit and his opinion was of limited consequence . . . though I'm sure he's being honest when he talks about how he likes the idea of a suit so that his emotions show through.

This technology adds an interesting twist though. In a way, this technology could provide better emotional expression. Think about it, which would better convey MC's acting - him twisting and contorting his face so that his expressions show through a thick layer of foam rubber, or him simply acting and having the CGI people map those expressions to a computer model?

I wonder after the turmoil he went through last time around that maybe that insistence has changed......:)
 
JMAfan said:
I wonder after the turmoil he went through last time around that maybe that insistence has changed......:)

LOL! I think you may have something there. I'd sure be pushing this if I was him. In fact, I think I'd take a big pay cut to help them pay for it. Not only would it be a lot more comfortable during shooting, but he wouldn't have to spend 5 hours or so in the make-up chair every day prior to shooting.
 

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