The Flash ZOOM! (Possible season 2 spoilers)

[Silliminite]

using his helmet to do some sort of shock wave punches.

Good point.

Perhaps Zoom gave him info on what he saw the real Garrick do during their battles on E-2?

 

[jrmtz543]

That's not the only way it can work. Suppose there were no breaches at all. Then there is no E1 Zolomon in play. Only E2 people. So Jay Garrick becomes the Flash 2 years ago, but no-one has ever seen him, because he is always moving at speed. But then he's captured, and the speedster who showed up at Well's press conference is E2 Zolomon, ie Zoom, who does have speed.

Wells only ever sees E2 Zolomon and believes this to be E2 Garrick. But he has no way to verify.

Wouldn't the real Jay have people close to him on E2, the way Barry has his team? Jay presumably has friends and family who'd recognize the guy at the conference is an impostor.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ More than likely... which is another reason why this whole "fake Jay" thing just doesn't hold water.

 

[Silliminite]

Wouldn't the real Jay have people close to him on E2, the way Barry has his team? Jay presumably has friends and family who'd recognize the guy at the conference is an impostor.

Excellent point, but it's entirely possible that unlike Barry, Jay's a loner and not one person knew he became the Flash.

 

[jrmtz543]

Excellent point, but it's entirely possible that unlike Barry, Jay's a loner and not one person knew he became the Flash.

Well, he could be a loner, but I find it difficult to believe there's nobody who knows Jay exists and what he looks like. He was a scientist working in a lab before, after all.

 

[Nathan]

He would at the very least have co-workers.

 

[Dark Raven]

^ Unless every single encounter that Zoom and The Flash had over the course of 2 years (since Zoom encounters are pretty much commonplace, at least according to the information we get from "Welcome to Earth-2") and every encounter between The Flash and every other Metahuman that has ever menaced Central City during that same time period happened completely 'at speed', your scenario doesn't work either.

Encounters between Zoom and the Flash are irrelevant, because even if either of them see each other's face, it doesn't really matter here. It's the rest of the general public that counts. And as for the Flash and other metahumans, well once they're caught, who are they going to tell if there is later someone going around masquerading as the Flash who looks like Sears and not like someone else?

As far as the general public (including Wells) are concerned, if they only ever see "the Flash" at certain select instances (like that press conference), then they may have only ever seen a Flash with Zolomon's face and not the real Garrick's face.

 

[Silliminite]

Well, he could be a loner, but I find it difficult to believe there's nobody who knows Jay exists and what he looks like. He was a scientist working in a lab before, after all.

Oh right, not only was Sears' face seen, he was also publicly called "Jay Garrick". Touche`

 

[Nathan]

Are we also assuming that all of the Metas ever saw, was Hunter Zolomon impersonating Jay Garrick? Because Sand Demon recognized him and he didn't seem really surprised. So basically, no one, not one person, ever saw what Jay Garrick looked like. It's all been Hunter Zolomon. And there's not a single person around who actually knows the real Jay Garrick.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well, he could be a loner, but I find it difficult to believe there's nobody who knows Jay exists and what he looks like. He was a scientist working in a lab before, after all.

I'm sure there are people who know what Jay looks like, but none of them might have known he became the Flash. He might've become the Flash under different circumstances to Barry in that he didn't have his own Team Flash backing him but was more of a lone crusader once the particle accelerator exploded.

When Clark Kent became Superman, there were people who knew what Clark Kent looked like. But no-one, until later, knew that he was Superman. And whenever they saw Superman in public or on TV, they never imagined he was Clark Kent, even though the two do look alike.

When the Flash of E2 has made public appearances, has he announced to everyone he is also Jay Garrick? If not, then all people see and know him as is the Flash. If he even says his name is Jay Garrick and he looks like Sears, but people know the real Jay Garrick looks different, then the real Garrick's friends wouldn't automatically think "hey, that's not what Jay looks like". Instead, they would simply think it's someone else with the name Jay Garrick. There are plenty of people in real life with the same name. I've met a Steve Rogers before in real life, and he didn't look anything like Captain America.

Even the current Spider-Man, Tom Holland, has someone else who is a historian called Tom Holland whom fans often confuse with him.

 

[DigificWriter]

Encounters between Zoom and the Flash are irrelevant, because even if either of them see each other's face, it doesn't really matter here. It's the rest of the general public that counts. And as for the Flash and other metahumans, well once they're caught, who are they going to tell if there is later someone going around masquerading as the Flash who looks like Sears and not like someone else?

As far as the general public (including Wells) are concerned, if they only ever see "the Flash" at certain select instances (like that press conference), then they may have only ever seen a Flash with Zolomon's face and not the real Garrick's face.

You have a superhero in the E2 Flash who doesn't bother to wear a mask or any other kind of face-concealment whatsoever. Unless he only showed up completely 'at speed' and never slowed down, there is absolutely zero chance of his features not being seen and his identity being subsequently discovered and made known over the course of 2 years.

 

[jrmtz543]

When Clark Kent became Superman, there were people who knew what Clark Kent looked like. But no-one, until later, knew that he was Superman. And whenever they saw Superman in public or on TV, they never imagined he was Clark Kent, even though the two do look alike.


Even the current Spider-Man, Tom Holland, has someone else who is a historian called Tom Holland whom fans often confuse with him.

Kent's disguise has always been part of the mythology, though. It is explained by saying he acts differently - changing his body language and voice - to complete the effect. At one point, in the comics, he even had the ability to alter this face significantly, so Superman and Kent actually did look like different people.

Obviously, people are going to have the same or similar names. I knew a guy named James Bond, and he wasn't a secret agent; this didn't stop a dozen people a week from asking him about Moneypenny and Goldfinger, though. My guess is anybody with the name Jay Garrick would be constantly fending off Flash inquires, even if they were obvious jokes.

I'm sure everybody can think of an example like that. But to suggest Zoom / Zolomon could steal Jay's identity--hero, scientist, and all around good guy-- for years without anybody being the wiser because the real Jay may look different doesn't seem plausible.

In today's superhero world, secret identities seem effective on casual acquaintances and the general public, but if Jay has even one person close to him, that person would eventually figure out he was the Flash. I mean, Barry's dad figured out his son was a superhero while behind bars 24/7, and this was in spite of the mask and blurred face.

 

[Venom'sDad]

I think I now understand what's going on. The man in the mask is Jay-2 held captive by Zoom. There is no Jay-1 as of yet...he has not been identified as of, because Caitlin does not recognize the real Jay-1 as being the Jay Garrett she thinks she knows from Earth-2.

Now follow me on this....the guy "WE" know as Jay-2 is really Zoloman-2 who is really Zoom; whom took Velocity-6 & split into two separate beings....one with Speed, the other who has lost his. Zoloman-2 is pretending to be Jay-2(whom is the man in the mask, a different looking person/actor when it is finally revealed). Zoloman -1 is Zoom's doppelganger and the brunt of a made up story of him being Earth-1 Jay Garrick, name changed by adoption, to the Zolomans, to throw Caitlin off track(who has been looking into speedless Zoloman's, aka Jay-2, DNA whom had no sign of the speedforce, because Zoom got all of it, in the split). Zoloman-1 is just a regular gut like Barry Allen-2 is.

This is the reason Caitlin did not recognize Jay Garrick-1, who is a different person/actor when she tried to find Jay's doppelganger under the name Jay Garrick. Also the reason why Zoom snatched Jay-2, aka speedless Zoloman-2, his other half, back into the portal at the end of the episode.

We have yet to see the face of the real Jay Garrick 1&2.

I like this guy theory about Zoom & Jay Garrick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7bq02g9D6E

[YT]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7bq02g9D6E[/YT]

He's just saying what I've suggested maybe happening.....hmmm, wonder if he been reading my post??? Interesting.

 

[metaphysician]

*cough* I think there's an easier explanation for "How come Jay's friends didn't notice what Zoom did?" Specifically, Zoom *killed* Jay's friends and comrades, in the course of their battles or after defeating and iron-masking him.

Brutal, but certainly not OOC.

 

[Dark Raven]

*cough* I think there's an easier explanation for "How come Jay's friends didn't notice what Zoom did?" Specifically, Zoom *killed* Jay's friends and comrades, in the course of their battles or after defeating and iron-masking him.

Brutal, but certainly not OOC.

That is quite possible. If so, he would've really broken Jay Garrick, so that it would be true that he would've grown tired of fighting him (although that's what the Garrick we saw claimed, who may not be Garrick at all). But if Zolomon were a former friend of Garrick, he might know this anyway.

 

[zenith16]

He would at the very least have co-workers.

he should have co-workers. But looking at how many other CSi's in central city other then Barry, there should be?.....


it is a freaking city after all. barry should be working with other CSI's in the police station he's in. he has in the books and animated series and movie flash point. Here there's no other csi's which has always been freaking weird.

 

[zenith16]

Just pointing out that they isolate Barry to some degree in his work place. they could have done the same to Jay in which he has no co-worker's.

Which I know to alot of people here, it'll make no sense. But looking at Barry him self's work place and the other limited stuff shown in star city with in arrow where there aren't police chief's or a commissioner above captain lance beside answer to the District Aturny's office where laurel works and then the missing mayor or fed's like the FBI. there's alot missing in those citys.

 

[jrmtz543]

I feel like we're all talking about the same issue from different perspectives. Of course, anything the writers want to happen can happen.

If they say Zoom is Jay from Earth 36, then that's what he'll be. What I'm saying, and what many others feel, is that multiple doppelgangers or unknown twins wouldn't amount to good storytelling because they take the easy way out.

Anybody a fan of "The Mentalist?" For years, the writers gave the audience clues to the identity of the antagonist Red John. In the end, though, none of the clues mattered or made any sense with the final reveal.

 

[Dark Raven]

In the Mentalist though, they didn't seem to have a plan where they were going and it was stretched out over several seasons.

With Zoom, it will be resolved by the end of this season so it should be more tightly plotted and not just making it up as they go along. So the clues they drop should matter more because they're not going to suddenly change their plans.

 

[Katsuro]

So, i haven't been able to check the whole thread, but I'm surprise I haven't seen more people discussing that possibility that Jay Garrick actually created Zoom. Like, Zoom is some weird part of Jay that split off from him when he used the Velocity-6 (I mean, no one thought Jay was telling the whole truth there, did they?). So Jay lost his speed and it somehow became Zoom, and that's why Zoom is hellbent on acquiring more speed.

I would then guess that Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon is just a regular guy, just like Jay said, and his name is simply a nod to the comics version of that character. That wouldn't account for the man in the mask though...

 

[Nathan]

I'd actually like if that is how it is, including Earth-1 Zolomon just being a nod to the fans.

 

[superboy13]

So, i haven't been able to check the whole thread, but I'm surprise I haven't seen more people discussing that possibility that Jay Garrick actually created Zoom. Like, Zoom is some weird part of Jay that split off from him when he used the Velocity-6 (I mean, no one thought Jay was telling the whole truth there, did they?). So Jay lost his speed and it somehow became Zoom, and that's why Zoom is hellbent on acquiring more speed.

I would then guess that Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon is just a regular guy, just like Jay said, and his name is simply a nod to the comics version of that character. That wouldn't account for the man in the mask though...

How would that fit with Wells creating Zoom, though?

 

[zerohour films]

How would that fit with Wells creating Zoom, though?

Maybe its that Wells particle accelerator created The Flash (and other metas) and The Flash's desire to become faster is what created Zoom. But from Wells perspective Zoom is just another meta so he thinks its his fault.

Man this show is bananas! Can't wait to see what they have in store for us regarding E2 Flash and Zoom


*runs back into forum obscurity

 

[stillanerd]

Okay, here's how I think it breaks down:

As confirmed by Andrew Kreisberg, Zoom is Hunter Zolomon, a.k.a "Jay Garrick," meaning the person Team Flash has known as Jay since this season's first episode has been manipulating them the whole time.

The Jay Garrick who was killed by Zoom? That, I believe, was Hunter Zolomon of Earth-1, who's been in cahoots with Zoom the whole time and also pretended to be Jay Garrick whenever necessary. Such as when the STAR labsters tested Jay to see if he had traces of the Speed Force to back up his story about having lost his powers it to Zoom. Or when "Jay" showed Caitlin his Earth-1 counterpart at the park bench. Or whenever he was injected with Velocity-6, 7, 8, and 9. To paraphrase a certain Christopher Nolan movie, the trick is where Zoom and Earth-1 Hunter would swap.

However, we also know that there is a real Jay Garrick who is The Flash on Earth-2 as confirmed by Harry and the flashback on Earth-2 in which Harry unveiled the metahuman detector. Moreover, Earth-2 Jay had the yellow lightning Speed Force effect just like Barry does, and whenever "Jay" took one of the Velocity serums, he also had the yellow lightning Speed Force effect. Therefore, Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon must share the same face.

Which leads to the theory that the real Jay Garrick is also the man in the iron mask. And not just because he taps out "J-A-Y" or that careful examination of him shows he has a similar traits to the actor who plays "Jay"/Zoom, but also because Zoom has him in a similar cage like he did Barry, which seems designed to hold speedsters.

So either, I think, we're dealing with one of two options:

a. Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon being identical twins on Earth-2 but on Earth-1. Or

b. When Jay was hit by his Earth's particle accelerator explosion, it not only gave him super speed, it split his personality a la Jekyll and Hyde. Remember, Jay didn't get his speed powers the same way Barry did; Barry was struck by lightning and flew into some chemicals when the accelerator exploded, while Jay was experimenting with Heavy Water when the accelerator on his earth exploded. The reason Jay wasn't able to catch Zoom is because he was literally chasing himself. Once he discovered the truth, Jay's injected himself with Velocity-6 in an attempt to "kill" Zoom, but instead it's reaction to the Speed Force made them physically two separate people. Which would also explain why "Jay" warned Barry not to use Velocity-6 because he knew the effect it would have on those who already have access to the Speed Force. This would also explain why Zoom is attempting to absorb the Flash's speed and is dying: because having separated himself from Jay, he's physically unstable, and the Speed Force is the only thing literally holding him together.

 

[DigificWriter]

Those comments from Kreisberg regarding Zoom are contradictory not only to the show, but also to another set of comments he gave to another website.