🇪🇺 Discussion: The European Union

[Dr. Evil]

Can someone explain to me the clear structure of the EU? There seems to me to be two in charge of the EU: The President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission. Who's the main guy in charge? And why have the powers not been consolidated?

 

[Destructus86]

wow...those Palestinian's sure do whine a lot.

 

[04nbod]

That is very tough for France, they own their own debt.......this is not good.


The UK is probably laughing at the Euro right now, and Ireland is probably thinking....why, why, why didn't we listen to the British.

Ireland are stubborn. They will pretty much do the opposite of everything Westminster advises on principle and then we have to bail them out. Everything we saved through austerity in 2010 went to Ireland's bailout. Just like:

Polling in the UK shows some interesting results over Scotland:

- 43% of English voters approve of Scottish independence as opposed to 32% disapproving.

- 40% of Scottish voters approve of Scottish independence with 43% disapproving.

Scotland! Its a side show to detract from the real problems in Scotland. We are predicted to be coming out of the downturn around the time Salmond wants his referendum presumably so he can take credit for it. The share of the national debt alone on Scotland would be crippling. Remember, in the UK most people live in England hence England shoulders most of the debt. When the Royal Bank of Scotland went bust it was English money that propped it up.

If Scotland do go independent they are going to keep the British sterling apparently.

I think people are afraid that if they have the referendum in Northern Ireland and republicans don't win that they will lose faith in the peace process and things will go back to how they were before.

Salmond also wants the Queen as head of state! I don't even really think he wants independance, its all just national pride. He brought out his statement on the criteria and the question of the referendum to great fanfare on the anniversary of the birth of Robert Burns. He's trying to summon some sort of scottish patriotism beyond realism.

honestly i would just love the uk to tell europe to stick it up they're collective arse, but this si such a double edge sword we agree and basically give up a lot of our own free will and civil liberties, tell them no and we lose most if not all trade partners. its extremely shaky ground


though i do find it funny that germany will have the most power, a lot of world war jokes could be made there

But then how would we know what shape of parsnips to buy!

Seriously, tonnes of food is wasted every year because European law says they can't be misshapen which in turn drives up prices.

As for World War jokes, well I do love that Britain is still the little island who says no and knocks sense into the continent.

 

[chamber-music]

Can someone explain to me the clear structure of the EU? There seems to me to be two in charge of the EU: The President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission. Who's the main guy in charge? And why have the powers not been consolidated?

The European Commision is the executive body of the European Union. Its responsible for the day to day running of the EU.

The European President is supposed to drive the direction of the Union. To be honest the European President role wasn't even needed and the two current holders of the position kind oof clash.

Its another one of the reasons the European Union often messes up because its overly bureaucratic.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Fitch has downgraded Spain two notches from A+ to A-, Italy two notches from AA- to A, Slovenia two notches from AA- to A, Belgium one notch from AA+ to AA, and Cyprus one notch from BBB to BBB-. Cyprus' rating is just one notch above junk.

 

[enterthemadness]

I hope America does not bail out Europe...I hope Paul is wrong and the U.N and IMF have no new currency up it's sleeve.

 

[enterthemadness]

Hey look, a failure...

http://m.npr.org/story/137394348?url=/2011/06/28/137394348/-1-billion-that-nobody-wants

 

[Paradoxium]

The ESEE reports Greece will be in "Condition Of Absolute Poverty".

I have next to no sympathy. They voted themselves into this poverty. It's hard to believe the blew their wads on the Olympics years ago.

 

[Marvolo]

The ESEE reports Greece will be in "Condition Of Absolute Poverty".

I have next to no sympathy. They voted themselves into this poverty. It's hard to believe the blew their wads on the Olympics years ago.

Have sympathy for the children.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

One-third of Greeks support radical change via revolution

Data produced by Greek survey organization Public Issue shows that in 2011 one third of the population agreed that "Our society must change radically through revolution."

Speaking of which...

Pre-revolutionary situation in Greece

It is impossible to cure cancer with an aspirin. What is necessary is a genuine Left government – a workers’ government that is prepared to expropriate the bankers and big capitalists – both Greek and foreign – and introduce a nationalised planned economy, under the democratic control and administration of the working class.

In order to free the Greek economy from the stranglehold of foreign Capital, all debts must be repudiated and there should be a state monopoly of foreign trade. Drastic revolutionary measures should be taken against speculators and people who send their wealth abroad.

These are the prior conditions, without which no solution is possible. However, even these steps will not be enough. Under modern conditions, no country can save itself on purely national lines. Socialism in one country is a reactionary utopia, as the experience of the USSR and China clearly show. A socialist Greece should make an appeal to the workers of Europe to follow its example: throw off the yoke of Capital and unite in a European Socialist Federation, built on the solid foundations of equality and solidarity.

The only thing that stands between the working class and power is the lack of leadership. The polls indicate that the Left parties (Synaspismos, KKE and the Democratic Left) have over 40%. This shows that the working class is looking to the Left to solve its problems. But sectarian tactics prevents them from uniting for action. The KKE refuses to engage with other Left parties. They even called a separate demonstration on Sunday.

That is a fatal mistake. The working class demands united action against the capitalist class and a genuine socialist policy! What is required is the application of the Leninist policy of the United Front. Such a policy and programme would be sufficient to sweep the bourgeois parties into the dustbin of history where they belong.

 

[hippie_hunter]

No surprise there considering how bad their government has botched up and how the Troika is treating Greece.

 

[Paradoxium]

Good luck with this worker type of government. After decades of cushy service and government jobs... With the type of mentalities they have developed. Wonder how many of them have any farming skills or the humility to do the tough and dirty work. It's so much easier to destroy to create.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Would things be this bad if Greece had still been a monarchy?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yes because European monarchs have no true power. They only serve as ceremonial heads of state. The policies set forth that caused the mess would have still happened.

 

[Paradoxium]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/negat...ve-gold-greece-just-became-banksters-paradise

- They are now seizing gold from Greek banks
- People are now being forced to pay back their salaries. Retroactive salary cuts

While Iceland is now known as the country that is the closest earthly approximation to banker hell, it is safe to say that Greece is the terrestrial equivalent of banker heaven. Because as explained earlier today, the country's population is about to get a worse deal than your average run of the mill slave - they may get whipped, but at least never have to pay for the privilege, unlike the Greeks. Hence negative salaries.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Good luck with this worker type of government. After decades of cushy service and government jobs... With the type of mentalities they have developed. Wonder how many of them have any farming skills or the humility to do the tough and dirty work. It's so much easier to destroy to create.

What an arrogant, uninformed comment. You're right, there are no farmers or blue collar workers in all of Greece.

Name me one thing these parasitical EU bankers have ever created, other than vast profits for themselves. They're the ones who are destroying the lives of millions of Greek workers and their families - the people who actually worked hard and played by the rules.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You can't just blame the EU bankers though. The Greek government got Greece into this mess. And it really is a damn shame because it's exactly as you say, these people worked hard and played by the rules.

 

[Paradoxium]

What an arrogant, uninformed comment. You're right, there are no farmers or blue collar workers in all of Greece.

Name me one thing these parasitical EU bankers have ever created, other than vast profits for themselves. They're the ones who are destroying the lives of millions of Greek workers and their families - the people who actually worked hard and played by the rules.

You're putting words in my mouth. If I liked the EU bankers or were backing them, why in bloody hell would I put up an anti-EU banking article like that. Hell why would I want to short the market on this alone. You implying I would support their bailouts is insulting.

If Greece was serious about reality, why haven't they defaulted and given the bankers the middle finger like Iceland?

More than half of their jobs are government jobs. A good chunk of these are "services". Blue collar does not make up the majority of their job market.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

You're putting words in my mouth. If I liked the EU bankers or were backing them, why in bloody hell would I put up an anti-EU banking article like that. Hell why would I want to short the market on this alone. You implying I would support their bailouts is insulting.

I was reacting to the way you characterized the Greek workers - all those talking points about "lazy", spoiled public sector workers and the like.

It was mostly the comment you made about them that "it's so much easier to destroy than to create" that set me off. What have the workers destroyed? I drew a comparison with the bankers because they're the ones who are destroying millions of peoples' lives to maintain their profit margins.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your own views.

If Greece was serious about reality, why haven't they defaulted and given the bankers the middle finger like Iceland?

Possibly because unlike Iceland, Greece is part of the Eurozone?

More than half of their jobs are government jobs. A good chunk of these are "services". Blue collar does not make up the majority of their job market.

It doesn't have to. You just made this big generalization, basically "those lazy Greek workers probably don't know what it's like to do real dirty work." Blue collar workers don't have to be in the majority to prove that point wrong.

Besides, anybody who sells their labour-power for a wage is working class, and in that regard, it doesn't matter if you're blue collar, white collar, pink collar, or working in the tertiary sector.

 

[Paradoxium]

What up with your dissect-a-quoting. Try pulling that on me again and I will make it a big pain in the ass for you. It would not be my first time.

So what if they are part of the Eurozone? The rest of the Eurozone can go to hell, they took risk and didn't do their due diligence by letting failures like Greece in. In business, it's called LOSS and BANKRUPTCY. You know taking responsibility.

And I am not backing down on the lame, overpaid and inefficient government jobs making up the majority. Hard to tax when those jobs depends on tax revenues. They do not generate a surplus of capital value to feed the monster. You can try to spin it all you want, but they are parasites by virtue of the fiscal situation.

I have no sympathy. They can keep destroying themselves. Not only do they spend like crazy, they make it a living hell for small honest businesses to start up.

As e-commerce continues to gain ground apace abroad, and even Greeks seem to be warming to the idea of Internet shopping, opening an online store based in Greece is no job for the fainthearted.

“An online store is more complicated than a regular store basically because of the way payments are carried out,” explained Fotis Antonopoulos, one of the co-founders of www.oliveshop.com, which sells olive oil-based products such as cosmetics, mostly to foreign markets.

“Most stores begin operating after receiving only the approval regarding their brand name, as the bureaucracy involved takes such a long time to complete that it is simply impossible to keep up with the operational costs, such as paying rent on obligatory headquarters, without making any sales,” said Antonopoulos.

Antonopoulos and his partners spent hours collecting papers from tax offices, the Athens Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the municipal service where the company is based, the health inspector’s office, the fire department and banks. At the health department, they were told that all the shareholders of the company would have to provide chest X-rays, and, in the most surreal demand of all, stool samples.

Once they climbed the crazy mountain of Greek bureaucracy and reached the summit, they faced the quagmire of the bank, where the issue of how to confirm the credit card details of customers ended in the bank demanding that the entire website be in Greek only, including the names of the products.

Managed economy wet dream by bureaucrats. Yes because bureaucrats of the status quo totally know how to manage the economy with infinite information constantly streaming, evolving and changing. This is the superior economy in practice. If only Obama could can make every business owner take chest x-ray and **** samples.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

What up with your dissect-a-quoting. Try pulling that on me again and I will make it a big pain in the ass for you. It would not be my first time.

I'm trembling.

So what if they are part of the Eurozone? The rest of the Eurozone can go to hell, they took risk and didn't do their due diligence by letting failures like Greece in. In business, it's called LOSS and BANKRUPTCY. You know taking responsibility.

And I am not backing down on the lame, overpaid and inefficient government jobs making up the majority. Hard to tax when those jobs depends on tax revenues. They do not generate a surplus of capital value to feed the monster. You can try to spin it all you want, but they are parasites by virtue of the fiscal situation.

I have no sympathy. They can keep destroying themselves. Not only do they spend like crazy, they make it a living hell for small honest businesses to start up. Managed economy wet dream by bureaucrats. Yes because bureaucrats of the status quo totally know how to manage the economy with infinite information constantly streaming, evolving and changing. This is the superior economy in practice. If only Obama could can make every business owner take chest x-ray and **** samples.

Bureaucracies are a drag on any economy - and that goes for whether it's a government bureaucracy or a corporate bureaucracy.

The only way to avoid that in the long term is for workers on the ground to run the enterprises democratically, with anybody who fills a higher position being elected and subject to recall at any time.

 

[Paradoxium]

A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

One way to trip to Innovation hell.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

So has anybody heard about the Greek health workers in Kilkis who took over control of their hospital and put it under workers' management?

From the statement issued by the workers' general assembly:

The workers of the Γ.Ν. (General Hospital) of Kilkis: doctors, nursing and the rest of the staff that participated in the General Assembly concluded that:

1. We recognize that the current and enduring problems of Ε.Σ.Υ (the national health system) and related organizations cannot be solved with specific and isolated demands or demands serving our special interests, since these problems are a product of a more general anti-popular governmental policy and of the bold global neoliberalism.

[...]

3. For this reason, we place our special interests inside a general framework of political and economic demands that are posed by a huge portion of the Greek people that today is under the most brutal capitalist attack; demands that in order to be fruitful must be promoted until the end in cooperation with the middle and lower classes of our society.

4. The only way to achieve this is to question, in action, not only its political legitimacy, but also the legality of the arbitrary authoritarian and anti-popular power and hierarchy which is moving towards totalitarianism with accelerating pace.

5. The workers at the General Hospital of Kilkis answer to this totalitarianism with democracy. We occupy the public hospital and put it under our direct and absolute control. The Γ.N. of Kilkis, will henceforth be self-governed and the only legitimate means of administrative decision making will be the General Assembly of its workers.

6. The government is not released of its economic obligations of staffing and supplying the hospital, but if they continue to ignore these obligations, we will be forced to inform the public of this and ask the local government but most importantly the society to support us in any way possible for: (a) the survival of our hospital (b) the overall support of the right for public and free healthcare (c) the overthrow, through a common popular struggle, of the current government and any other neoliberal policy, no matter where it comes from (d) a deep and substantial democratization, that is, one that will have society, rather than a third party, responsible for making decisions for its own future.

7. The labour union of the Γ.N. of Kilkis, will begin, from 6 February, the retention of work, serving only emergency incidents in our hospital until the complete payment for the hours worked, and the rise of our income to the levels it was before the arrival of the troika (EU-ECB-IMF). Meanwhile, knowing full well what our social mission and moral obligations are, we will protect the health of the citizens that come to the hospital by providing free healthcare to those in need, accommodating and calling the government to finally accept its responsibilities, overcoming even in the last minute its immoderate social ruthlessness.

8. We decide that a new general assembly will take place, on Monday 13 February in the assembly hall of the new building of the hospital at 11 am, in order to decide the procedures that are needed to efficiently implement the occupation of the administrative services and to successfully realise the self-governance of the hospital, which will start from that day. The general assemblies will take place daily and will be the paramount instrument for decision making regarding the employees and the operation of the hospital.

We ask for the solidarity of the people and workers from all fields, the collaboration of all workers' unions and progressive organizations, as well as the support from any media organization that chooses to tell the truth. We are determined to continue until the traitors that sell out our country and our people leave. It's either them or us!

The above decisions will be made public through a news conference to which all the Mass Media (local and national) will be invited on Wednesday 15/2/2012 at 12.30. Our daily assemblies begin on 13 February. We will inform the citizens about every important event taking place in our hospital by means of news releases and conferences. Furthermore, we will use any means available to publicise these events in order to make this mobilization successful.

We call

a) our fellow citizens to show solidarity to our effort,

b) every unfairly treated citizen of our country in contestation and opposition, with actions, against his'/her's oppressors,

c) our fellow workers from other hospitals to make similar decisions,

d) the employees in other fields of the public and private sector and the participants in labour and progressive organizations to act likewise, in order to help our mobilization take the form of a universal labour and popular resistance and uprising, until our final victory against the economic and political elite that today oppresses our country and the whole world.

Emphasis mine.

This is the way forward - not just in Greece, but for workers all over the world facing austerity. Labor needs to occupy the workplace.

 

[enterthemadness]

Sad...


http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_new...etiree-kills-himself-outside-greek-parliament


1 out of 5 Greeks jobless? Yikes. I knew it was bad, but no that mad. That is 20% unemployment. Straight up. That DOESN'T include people that are underemployed aka part-timers.

 

[demitri_vampiro]

One-third of Greeks support radical change via revolution

Speaking of which...

Pre-revolutionary situation in Greece

one can only hope that this whole situation with greece might bring up a revolution in which socialism will overcome capitalism.