🇷🇺🇺🇦 Discussion: Relations with Russia and the war in Ukraine

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

1. What would the Russian state stand to win if some random people on the internet put the record straight? In any case, the Russian-funded media do not use the language or talking points that I am using, so you are very wrong to draw any parallels.

2. My approach in these matters is that of Realpolitik. Your approach seems to be highly idealistic. Your statements clearly assume that the only thing saving Russia from total and utter military defeat, is the benevolence & magnanimity of the US & its allies. This is not supported by any facts. US-NATO have been utterly ruthless with their geopolitical targets throughout the decades. The hostility demonstrated towards Russia by both the US & Europe has been unprecedented in recent years. There have been multiple public admissions by Western officials that the aim of their policies is to "bring Russia on her knees", "to affect regime-change in the Kremlin", "to kill as many Russians as possible", "to destroy the Russian economy", "to force Putin to back down"

Moreover, many NATO strategists (such as George Friedman, Robert Kaplan, Edward Lucas, Zbigniew Brzenski) have explicitly stated that the end-goal of the Western Alliance towards Russia is the break-up of that country.

Trust me, there is zero mercy on the part of NATO towards Russia, their aim is nothing but the complete and utter destruction of that country, which now, as in times before has risen from the ashes to defy the Western world in its entirety. And do keep in mind, this is the trouble that Russia can cause when she is still relatively weak and poor, imagine what things will be like when Russia is in a stronger position.

So no, your assumption (also articulated by some MSM "analysts") that the US-NATO can easily force Russia to back down, or even easily defeat her, but htey just can't be bothered, is either based on ignorance, wishful thinking or an embarrassed desire to hide the fact that one country has outwitted and outmaneuvered the entire North American-European-Turkish-Israeli-GCC Imperium.

The Russians have legitimate interests in both the post-Soviet space as well as the MENA region, and will be fighting for them from now on, tooth & nail. Russia is only now in the process of regaining her geo-strategic footing, but this time, the "free-world" won't be facing an ideologically rigid, caught in a Utopian mindset cumbersome power, but a far more flexible one, clever, selfish and cunning at every turn. NATO, along with all of their assorted vassals, better get used to the new reality.

Are the benefit's good at the Internet Research Agency? Hows the weather at 55 Savushkina Street St Petersburg this time of year? Dos vedanya Tovarisch!

 

[Raiden]

The U.S and others called for Assad to step aside.

A state sanctioned assassination or capture of a foreign leader without a large scale UN or global consensus would open an entire different can of worms. We need to look no further than Gaddafi's toppling in Libya or Saddam in Iraq. Atleast we had the common sense to let actual Libyans and Iraqis do the dirty work of offing them. In the U.S bombed Assad in Damascus it would only create more anti-U.S sentiment amongst many in the region and make things continuously unstable.

BBC Newsnight interviewed some Russians the other night for their views on the country politically. It was pretty interesting.

The Russians said many Russians feared political change as it has often coincided with catastrophe and unrest in Russia. People are scared of what will happen once Putin leaves because he is a autocrat that controls the country in some ways more singularly than during the Soviet Russian Communist era and there isn't really anyone to fill his place.

Mush of Putin's foreign policy to project strength and cover up flaws and failings back home in Russia. Putin has also fostered a us against them mentality with Russians convincing some the West is out to weaken Russia and wants to see them fail. They like Putin as they feel he stands up to foreigner detractors and he has tried to restore Russian patriotism which took a dip in the nineties.

Many Russians have a nostalgic for the old Soviet Union, a time when Russia was strong and had the Eastern Europe in their grip. Putin is a leader that makes them remember those times and feel good about themselves, even if what he creates are mostly smoke and mirror.

 

[Chance Jackson]

War should be avoided if possible.

And won't be. I'm not saying open war with Russia is guaranteed or even likely but we have been fighting proxy wars with Russia especially in Syria. I only see escalation in our future with a consistent imperialist ideology hawk like Hillary at the helm and that unfortunately for all is inevitable

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

And won't be. I'm not saying open war with Russia is guaranteed or even likely but we have been fighting proxy wars with Russia especially in Syria. I only see escalation in our future with a consistent imperialist ideology hawk like Hillary at the helm and that unfortunately for all is inevitable

Western countries haven't had a full scale war with each other since WW2.

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Schlosser85]

I think the days of full-scale war among first world countries like WWI and WWII are in the past. It's just not feasible nowadays.

 

[E.NormusJohnson]

I think the days of full-scale war among first world countries like WWI and WWII are in the past. It's just not feasible nowadays.

Full-scale ground wars for sure... it's all about air superiority now.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Western countries haven't had a full scale war with each other since WW2.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Russia isn't considered the West and I said it would be an escalation of our proxy wars with them not an open war, would it have been better if I used the term expansion instead of escalation?

 

[Kelly]

Is this a chess move ahead of Trump losing?

Will Trump supporters rally behind Russia?

No, because for them it has nothing to do with Russia, they are simply ignoring all of that.....

It is about immigration. No matter how much they talk about anything, it is about immigration for them. You want to see them rise up, watch what happens when Clinton starts pushing Amnesty....that is when you will hear from his supporters. They have been totally blind to his foreign policy as well as his inability to run his business. So when you are talking about those things it is the "I see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" UNTIL she starts throwing around the word amnesty once she is President.

It will be about a rigged election for about 3 weeks to a month, then it will quiet down (IF TRUMP QUIETS DOWN). If he doesn't it will go on until he gets bored.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

No, because for them it has nothing to do with Russia, they are simply ignoring all of that.....

It is about immigration. No matter how much they talk about anything, it is about immigration for them. You want to see them rise up, watch what happens when Clinton starts pushing Amnesty....that is when you will hear from his supporters. They have been totally blind to his foreign policy as well as his inability to run his business. So when you are talking about those things it is the "I see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" UNTIL she starts throwing around the word amnesty once she is President.

It will be about a rigged election for about 3 weeks to a month, then it will quiet down (IF TRUMP QUIETS DOWN). If he doesn't it will go on until he gets bored.

Obama has deported more illegals than the last 19 presidents combined.

But the alt right and many Trump supporters aren't satisfied. Why?

 

[king666]

Are the benefit's good at the Internet Research Agency? Hows the weather at 55 Savushkina Street St Petersburg this time of year? Dos vedanya Tovarisch!

 

[Hurm...]

Obama has deported more illegals than the last 19 presidents combined.

But the alt right and many Trump supporters aren't satisfied. Why?

Because most of them aren't aware of the facts.

And acknowledging facts is seen as being "liberal."

 

[Marvolo]

Obama has deported more illegals than the last 19 presidents combined.

But the alt right and many Trump supporters aren't satisfied. Why?

My father and other Republicans I've talked to in my area think the deportation numbers are lies put out by the Obama administration. It's the same for unemployment rates. National debt. Etc. There are too many republicans that either don't know the facts or outright reject them.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

1. What would the Russian state stand to win if some random people on the internet put the record straight? In any case, the Russian-funded media do not use the language or talking points that I am using, so you are very wrong to draw any parallels.

2. My approach in these matters is that of Realpolitik. Your approach seems to be highly idealistic. Your statements clearly assume that the only thing saving Russia from total and utter military defeat, is the benevolence & magnanimity of the US & its allies. This is not supported by any facts. US-NATO have been utterly ruthless with their geopolitical targets throughout the decades. The hostility demonstrated towards Russia by both the US & Europe has been unprecedented in recent years. There have been multiple public admissions by Western officials that the aim of their policies is to "bring Russia on her knees", "to affect regime-change in the Kremlin", "to kill as many Russians as possible", "to destroy the Russian economy", "to force Putin to back down"

Moreover, many NATO strategists (such as George Friedman, Robert Kaplan, Edward Lucas, Zbigniew Brzenski) have explicitly stated that the end-goal of the Western Alliance towards Russia is the break-up of that country.

Trust me, there is zero mercy on the part of NATO towards Russia, their aim is nothing but the complete and utter destruction of that country, which now, as in times before has risen from the ashes to defy the Western world in its entirety. And do keep in mind, this is the trouble that Russia can cause when she is still relatively weak and poor, imagine what things will be like when Russia is in a stronger position.

So no, your assumption (also articulated by some MSM "analysts") that the US-NATO can easily force Russia to back down, or even easily defeat her, but htey just can't be bothered, is either based on ignorance, wishful thinking or an embarrassed desire to hide the fact that one country has outwitted and outmaneuvered the entire North American-European-Turkish-Israeli-GCC Imperium.

The Russians have legitimate interests in both the post-Soviet space as well as the MENA region, and will be fighting for them from now on, tooth & nail. Russia is only now in the process of regaining her geo-strategic footing, but this time, the "free-world" won't be facing an ideologically rigid, caught in a Utopian mindset cumbersome power, but a far more flexible one, clever, selfish and cunning at every turn. NATO, along with all of their assorted vassals, better get used to the new reality.

So sad... So very sad.

 

[chamber-music]

'Russian nationalists' behind Montenegro PM assassination plot

Montenegro's chief special prosecutor has said "nationalists from Russia" were behind an attempt to assassinate the PM and carry out a coup.

Milivoje Katnic said the plot involved killing pro-Western PM Milo Djukanovic with a professional long-distance sharpshooter.
The plotters are accused of planning to break into parliament and bring a pro-Russian government to power.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37890683

A lot of countries near Russian borders are really nervous about Russia in recent years. All these cyber attacks, natural resources strong arming and military posturing has them worried.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Obama May Unleash Cyberwar on Russia After Election

On Sunday, the New York Times published a seemingly routine report about Obama’s cyber offensive strategy. Hiding halfway down the page, however, there are some fascinating details about the decision-making process behind a potential US cyber retaliation against Russia.

Here’s the key paragraph from the Times:

After a series of debates in the Situation Room, Mr. Obama and his aides concluded that any public retaliation should be postponed until after the election — to avoid the appearance that politics influenced his decision and to avoid provoking Russian counterstrikes while voting is underway. It remains unclear whether Mr. Obama will act after Tuesday, as his aides hint, or leave the decision about a “proportional response” to his successor.​

Obama, obviously, is at least slightly annoyed with what seems like Russia trying to screw with the election by hacking and leaking emails from the Democratic National Commission and high ranking Clinton campaign staffers like campaign chair John Podesta. Russia has also reportedly probed some election security systems.

This is particularly interesting considering that anonymous US intelligence officials have been leaking dribs and drabs to their outlet of choice, NBC News, about how the US has infiltrated key pieces of Russian infrastructure. NBC reports:

US military hackers have penetrated Russia’s electric grid, telecommunications networks and the Kremlin’s command systems, making them vulnerable to attack by secret American cyber weapons should the US deem it necessary, according to a senior intelligence official and top-secret documents reviewed by NBC News.​



There are clearly some mind games going on here. After all, feds wouldn’t just leak this to NBC because they felt like it. It’s one way to send a warning to Russia about the potential repercussions for any election day shenanigans, for one thing.

The Times also reports that the folks over at Dyn, who operate a part of one of the internet’s major systems, DNS, are prepping for a potential election day attack in wake of the massive DDoS attack that hit them a couple weeks ago. The DDoS attack on Dyn’s DNS servers was so severe that major parts of the internet were not accessible for most of Friday.

After election day, the real question becomes how exactly will the US respond to to Russia’s election related malfeasance. What kind of attack constitutes a “proportional response” to Russia’s alleged hacking and leaking of emails? Could an attack on Russia simply escalate a a brewing cyber war?

One thing is for sure: Obama is making decisions in what are essentially uncharted waters.

http://gizmodo.com/obama-may-unleash-cyberwar-on-russia-after-election-re-1788654382

Where is my comrade that questioned me and what the USA is capable of earlier in this thread?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The Washington Post - Secret CIA assessment says Russia was trying to help Trump win White House

The CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump win the presidency, rather than just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system, according to officials briefed on the matter.

Intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, according to U.S. officials. Those officials described the individuals as actors known to the intelligence community and part of a wider Russian operation to boost Trump and hurt Clinton’s chances.

“It is the assessment of the intelligence community that Russia’s goal here was to favor one candidate over the other, to help Trump get elected,” said a senior U.S. official briefed on an intelligence presentation made to U.S. senators. “That’s the consensus view.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html

 

[Kelly]

People have been saying this for months...I guess it is just now official.

 

[Kyle]

Unfortunately, some Trump supporters would rather cry out lugenpresse than look at the facts. I still can't believe that this is a reality we're now stuck with.

This goes further into and how Trump won't even listen to the CIA now since they don't fit his narrative:

http://fox6now.com/2016/12/09/ex-ci...ump-doesnt-believe-russia-hacked-us-election/

On Wednesday, Time Magazine quoted Trump saying: “I don’t believe they interfered… it could be Russia. And it could be China. And it could be some guy in his home in New Jersey.”

Retired General Michael Hayden talked about Trump’s refusal accept the intelligence conclusion at a private forum in Manhattan Wednesday evening.

“To have the president-elect of the United States simply reject the fact-based narrative that the intelligence community puts together because it conflicts with his a priori assumptions. Wow,” he said.

“The data matters,” Hayden said. “He continues to reject the Russians did it… and claims that it was politicized intelligence.”

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Reuters - Germany sees rise in Russian propaganda, cyber attacks

Germany's domestic intelligence agency on Thursday reported a striking increase in Russian propaganda and disinformation campaigns aimed at destabilizing German society, and targeted cyber attacks against political parties.

"We see aggressive and increased cyber spying and cyber operations that could potentially endanger German government officials, members of parliament and employees of democratic parties," Hans-Georg Maassen, head of the BfV spy agency, said in statement.

Maassen, who raised similar concerns about Russian efforts to interfere in German elections last month, cited what he called increasing evidence about such efforts and said further cyber attacks were expected.

The agency said it had seen a wide variety of Russian propaganda tools and "enormous use of financial resources" to carry out "disinformation" campaigns aimed at the Russian-speaking community in Germany, political movements, parties and other decision makers.

The goal was to spread uncertainty, strengthen extremist groups and parties, complicate the work of the federal government and "weaken or destabilize the Federal Republic of Germany"

The attacks were directed against German parties and lawmakers and were carried out by government bodies posing as "hacktivists", the agency said.

German officials have accused Moscow of trying to manipulate German media to fan popular angst over issues like the migrant crisis, weaken voter trust and breed dissent within the European Union so that it drops sanctions against Moscow.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-russia-idUSKBN13X15D

 

[Kyle]

For those with a lot more knowledge on this than I have, what could Putin's end game be? What could he be trying to put together?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The break up of the European Union and end of NATO is what Russia wants, and for Russian-backed governments to take over the remains. Putin wants to put the Soviet Union back together again and beyond.

 

[Kelly]

For those with a lot more knowledge on this than I have, what could Putin's end game be? What could he be trying to put together?

At the very least? Bringing back into the fold (of which they do have Azerbaijan on their side) bringing back into the Republic at the very least Georgia, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. Azerbaijan for the biggest reason, help with Chechen terrorists...Azerbaijan has been a huge force against Chechen terrorist groups. So, at the very least, these three countries. I'm not sure Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are within his grasp, but the 3 above, certainly are within that grasp.

People are forgetting about Central Asia, and in my estimation, it is the real powder keg.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

If only Republicans resisted Russian authoritarianism like they resisted communism.

I guess authoritarianism lets you stay rich so they don't care about the loss of civil liberties and democratic values.

 

[chamber-music]

For those with a lot more knowledge on this than I have, what could Putin's end game be? What could he be trying to put together?

Weaken the west.

They want nato gone as it is the only thing keeping them from enforcing their will on former soviet countries now in nato. Part of the reason the Ukrainian civil war happened is because their puppet president got ousted and western Ukraine wanted to join the EU which would take them out of Russia's sphere of influence.

The UK announced last week that they sending troops to Poland to back them up again Russia.

It is like the cold war is coming back

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Weaken the west.

They want nato gone as it is the only thing keeping them from enforcing their will on former soviet countries now in nato. Part of the reason the Ukrainian civil war happened is because their puppet president got ousted and western Ukraine wanted to join the EU which would take them out of Russia's sphere of influence.

The UK announced last week that they sending troops to Poland to back them up again Russia.

It is like the cold war is coming back

Except instead of a President willing to act in the best interests of our allies we have a fool who will give Putin and Russia a free pass.