🇷🇺🇺🇦 Discussion: Relations with Russia and the war in Ukraine

[InCali]

This is utter bull**** on Germany's part. There is no good reason to insist on the US supplying M1 Abrams to Ukraine as a condition to sending Leopard 2s. M1 Abrams are incredibly high maintenance and require vast amounts of fuel and support that a war torn nation like Ukraine does not have. They are like the Lamborghini or Ferrari of tanks in that they are incredibly sophisticated and high performing, but require an army of mechanics and technicians constantly to maintain that effectiveness.

In contrast, the Leopard 2 is like an old school Porsche 911 with its lack of bells and whistles, air cooled engine, manual transmission, and just solid engineering. In essence, it is almost as capable and high performing as an M1 but far less demanding, which is why it is the choice of most NATO countries from Canada to Poland. Those M1s are going to sit in a garage in Ukraine.

Can't the US ever make something simple? I've been in technology my entire life and have always gone by the motto "the best solution is the simplest one". I guess there's not enough money in that when it comes to the military. I can see having ultra high tech for certain applications, but it's not needed for all situations. Jesus.....

 

[Holy Slapper]

This is utter bull**** on Germany's part. There is no good reason to insist on the US supplying M1 Abrams to Ukraine as a condition to sending Leopard 2s. M1 Abrams are incredibly high maintenance and require vast amounts of fuel and support that a war torn nation like Ukraine does not have. They are like the Lamborghini or Ferrari of tanks in that they are incredibly sophisticated and high performing, but require an army of mechanics and technicians constantly to maintain that effectiveness.

In contrast, the Leopard 2 is like an old school Porsche 911 with its lack of bells and whistles, air cooled engine, manual transmission, and just solid engineering. In essence, it is almost as capable and high performing as an M1 but far less demanding, which is why it is the choice of most NATO countries from Canada to Poland. Those M1s are going to sit in a garage in Ukraine.

The US sending M1s even if they're not even used sends a signal the "whole West" is sending tanks to Ukraine, so Russia can't single out Germany.

 

[Sithborg]

I wonder if they could become a privately run country with the Wagner Group in charge.....

A lot of chatter I've seen seems to think that Prigozhin, the head of Wagner, is trying to set himself up as Putin's heir.

Can't the US ever make something simple? I've been in technology my entire life and have always gone by the motto "the best solution is the simplest one". I guess there's not enough money in that when it comes to the military. I can see having ultra high tech for certain applications, but it's not needed for all situations. Jesus.....

Frankly, the Abrams is how it is because there is one thing the US has that other countries do not, which is powerful logistics and supply capability. I mean, you can dismiss the tech and how the Abrams is built, but just look at how St Javelin handled Russia's armor in the war.

 

[InCali]

A lot of chatter I've seen seems to think that Prigozhin, the head of Wagner, is trying to set himself up as Putin's heir.



Frankly, the Abrams is how it is because there is one thing the US has that other countries do not, which is powerful logistics and supply capability. I mean, you can dismiss the tech and how the Abrams is built, but just look at how St Javelin handled Russia's armor in the war.

I heard him bragging about how he handled everything himself and that was the first thought that crossed my mind.

And

I'm the last one to dismiss technology. What I'm saying is that anything should be tech appropriate and there is a place for just about everything. Anytime I tried to fix a network issue, I looked for the simplest solution that fixed that particular issue. I never, ever went with the latest technology (unlike some of my peers) just because it was the latest tech.

I'm sure there are reasons to have highly advanced, and difficult to maintain, systems, BUT there are also reasons to have cheaper, lower tech systems that are situationally appropriate. I'm no military expert by any stretch of the imagination, but with all the money the US spends on defense, it doesn't seem out of line to think that we should have an army of tanks that would be of immense help to Ukraine that don't require an army to maintain.

Frankly, this smells of defense contractors screwing over the American public....oh, wait...that couldn't be happening

 

[Sithborg]

I mean, it is designed for a role. And that role is a US tank, that takes all the advantages of the US military. You can dismiss it, but recent history has shown that in an actual invasion, the US does really well.

What you are calling for is a stripped down version, that is more easily fitted into other militaries. Which, is not something I would really think is for the best. There is a fine line between helping allies and just becoming a weapons dealer.

 

[DKDetective]

I mean, it is designed for a role. And that role is a US tank, that takes all the advantages of the US military. You can dismiss it, but recent history has shown that in an actual invasion, the US does really well.

What you are calling for is a stripped down version, that is more easily fitted into other militaries. Which, is not something I would really think is for the best. There is a fine line between helping allies and just becoming a weapons dealer.

The M1 Abrams is a wonderful machine and works well in limited actions when there is the full might of the US supply and support train behind it.

However, the M1 is matched, if not bettered, by the Leopard 2 in most NATO war games or actual combat scenarios and it has the benefit of being much easier to train on, maintain, and fuel. The Germans learned the lesson of reliability and overengineering in the Second World War. Their tanks, the Panther in particular, were phenomenal tanks, but were overengineered and had reliability issues as a result. They were evenly matched by the T-34, which was an elegantly simple design and more reliable, but no less effective. The result was that the Russians could build more of them, more quickly, and get them back in fight quicker after damage.

The M1's combat record also has a big caveat on it in that it has only been in combat actions where the US has had complete air superiority, which is a big part of what makes sure it is adequately supplied, repaired, and fueled.

 

[InCali]

The most complicated solution is not always the best one.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The Hill - Zelensky blasts Olympic committee move: ‘Any neutral flag of Russian athletes is stained with blood’

The Russians cheat and PED up their athletes anyway and they shouldn’t be allowed.

 

[Morg]

Briton arrested after 'hiding Russian yacht by changing its name from Tango to Fanta'

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

 

[squeekness]

Nothing to see here, folks....

 

[Iceman]

Nato ready for 'direct confrontation’ with Putin's Russia, top admiral warns (yahoo.com)

 

[squeekness]

Nato ready for 'direct confrontation’ with Putin's Russia, top admiral warns (yahoo.com)

Good news as long as it doesn't spark off World War III.

 

[:eek:]

Russia preparing for 'maximum escalation', top Ukrainian security official tells Sky News | World News | Sky News

 

[squeekness]

Russia preparing for 'maximum escalation', top Ukrainian security official tells Sky News | World News | Sky News

Let them use up all of their supplies and then scurry away defeated.

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

 

[squeekness]

They don't realize that Russia will come for us next. It's not a waste of money.

 

[Holy Slapper]

They don't realize that Russia will come for us next. It's not a waste of money.

Not you. Us....

 

[squeekness]

Not you. Us....

You are us as far as I'm concerned. Putin wants to end democracy everywhere.

 

[:eek:]

Air raid sirens sound across Ukraine as EU summit begins | Reuters

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The Daily Beast - Top Russian Official Teases ‘the Next Ukraine’ in New Threat
The remarks come after months of warnings that Moscow is singling out a small European country.

Russia’s top diplomat said the actions of Western nations could soon turn Moldova into the “next Ukraine,” according to TASS.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused Moldovan President Maia Sandu of being “eager to join NATO.” Sandu, Lavrov said, is “ready to unite with Romania and in fact, to do almost anything.”

Romania is a member of North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), which was created to provide collective security against Russia.

 

[squeekness]

The Daily Beast - Top Russian Official Teases ‘the Next Ukraine’ in New Threat
The remarks come after months of warnings that Moscow is singling out a small European country.

Puti should just resign himself to the fact that nobody wants to be part of a Russia under his control. The more he bombs Ukraine the more other countries are going to pull away from Russia.

 

[:eek:]

China Aids Russia’s War in Ukraine, Trade Data Shows - WSJ

 

[:eek:]

Putin 'supplied' MH17 missile - investigators - BBC News

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Business Insider - Poland should be next target after Ukraine, says Putin ally Kadyrov