There was nothing in Raiders that made everyone groan, like "You know what happens to a toad when he's hit by lightning?"
That's because the actors in RAIDERS were not Halle Berry. There's nothing wrong with that line...it's her ****ty delivery that ruined the moment.
That's not enough. This is a movie about superheroes and he's supposed to be more than just Sue's boyfriend. His arc as scientist wasn't resolved. His arc as superhero is merely putting on a costume. His arc as leader is his barking orders during the last fight, that the others could have thought of themselves.
No, his arc as a leader was taking them under his wing, exploring their powers with them, and offering his advice on their power development. How is Reed telling Johnny to do a supernova something Johnny would have thought of by himself? Reed told him not to.
A more interesting way of handling the relationship...by making the things that separate them and bring them together based on character, and not generic issues like "insecurity" and "misinterpretation". For example, both of them have lost their families and would likely have trouble connecting on that level.
Connecting on what level? Family?
Yet- at the same time, both need that. Reed feels guilt over the predicament he's placed the others in.
And he expresses/shows it during the film. Despite the fact that since the storm was a freak occurrence, he shouldn't really feel guilty.
Sue is discouraged by the distance he places between them.
And she was. She was also discouraged by his inability to read her and his tendency to overanalyze.
Sue's maternal instincts getting in the way of her expressing her love romantically.
"Go away Johnny, Reed and I need some...quiet time."
Like I said, it needs to be placed in perspective. Celebrity isn't an important part of their lives. It's a by-product.
Not for Johnny Storm. It's an aim for him. He loves the spotlight. And celebrity is a realistically inescapable aspect of their time as the Four. And by celebrity, I mean being in the public spotlight, period, not just being famous and loved.
Sometimes its focused on for lighter moments like Ben referring to himself as "The idol of millions" or Sue having famous designers approach her to wear their clothes, or their wedding being a media event. But compared to their adventures the celebrity stuff is insignifcant.
And their celebrity stuff paled in comparison to the issues they were facing. Emerging powers, the control of them, and the use of them, and attempt to cure them of such powers, and the relationships. But you can't ignore celebrity/public eye aspects. That's a huge part of the Fantastic Four, and always has been.
I disagree. The FF weren't hurt or ever in any great danger. No major damage was caused. Look at how busted up Spidey always is at the end of his films. While I'm not saying it should be the same- mortal combat with their greatest enemy should have been more knock down, drag-out. Of course, it didn't help that Doom's powers were poorly executed and very unoriginal. It would've been better if he had his weapon-laced armor and at least some dangerous machines to utilize.
Spider-Man is a superhuman. He can TAKE that punishment. The shredding on his suit is to indicate that. Reed was shocked, fell out a window, and was flash-frozen. He was clearly in danger. Sue clearly got hurt. So did Ben. Johnny is the only one who didn't really get hurt, and that's not entirely unexpected.
I agree. Yet the movie's proponents always suggest that the FF comics were light comedies in order to justify the films slant.
They're wrong. Or they're choosing the wrong wording.
But things like Reed's lab and Doom's lair, the space station should have reflected Kirby's designs.
Consider...such designs might have distracted from what was going on actingwise. And while I like Kirby's designs, that's a little biased. Jack Kirby is not the on;ly artist who contrubuted to Four lore. Do you have some pictures of his rocket designs, btw?
When did you fear for their lives?
I didn't. It's just a movie I'm watching, and being a writer, I know that movies don't tend to end with heroes dying. I have never feared for a characters life onscreen since I was a kid, but I do recognize situations that would be difficult to survive/escape from. I do recognize situations where characters are in peril, and the Four found themselves in peril during the film.
What the hell? That's EXACTLY what happens- What does the reporter say before Reed's response?
You said Johnny laughs at Ben about the wife incident. He doesn't. He makes a mascot crack, which is mostly classic Johnny.
And he's making fun of Ben's appearance JUST AFTER HIS WIFE LEFT HIM- While the wound was still FRESH.
Right, and as I said before, Johnny clearly is not portrayed as someone who thinks before he speaks all the time. Johnny's clearly an ass to Ben as often as he can be. This is completely in character for the movie version
If you were horribly disfigured and your wife left you because of it, would you be okay with someone making jokes about your disfigurement an hour or two later? A day or two later? Would you do that to someone? You mention how "real" the relationships were in FF1- is that REAL to you?
No, and thusly, Ben DOESN'T seem ok with it. He's just controlling himself better than Johnny does, which is his side of their interaction. Ben controls himself right up to the point where he chooses to smash up Johnny's car.
Would I do that to someone? It depends on if I were an *******. I have known *******s to make jokes about serious matters many times in serious situations. So I find it completely in character for the movie character.
Johnny would have to be mentally defective to not think about that.
I've known plenty of impulsive people who simply don't think on that level. Johnny clearly doesn't.
I'm just asking you to explain it in the context of your movie.
I've written a script or two. Sold some as well. I know how to pace a film.
Your film concept seems enormous. Y ou can't possibly expect all that to work in under three hours.
1. Intro Reed in elementary school.
2. Reed at home, dad has his accident.
3. Doom as a child. His mom dies, he and his father are chased by Latverian leaders.
4.Reed in High School. He makes his first attempt at following his Dad's work and nearly suffers the same fate. He's recruited for College.
5. Doom in Latveria causing havoc with his potion and devices. He's recruited for college.
6. Reed and Doom's first day at College., they meet, don't like each other. Reed and Ben become roommates ( I might play with the idea of Reed and Ben having been in elementary and High school together as well, but weren't friends).
7. Reed and Doom become competitive learn about cosmic rays, each thinking of uses.
8. Doom's disasterous experiment. He's expelled.
Montage of Reed becoming a successful inventor/Doom's travels in the Himalayas/ becoming armored-up/ selling weapons/ gaining power.
9. Reed discovers Cosmic energy belt, starts planning mission.
10. Intro Sue and Johnny.
11. A parade in Latveria welcoming Doom's rule.
How many minutes would each of those portions be?
Why are they in Story's version?
Because Doom handpicks his crew. Sue is incredibly smart, and Johnny is a pilot/astronaut. And Ben is an astronaut already.
In my version, they become astronauts because- as I'd said- Reed has a limited amount of time to get to the Cosmic belt. He doesn't have time to recruit and train a new crew. Sue's going and Johnny won't let her go without him. He also proves to be an asset to the mission.
So he's sending up civilians as astronauts?
Not at all. Their characters should develop throughout the franchise. not just in one film (Or in the case of Story's FF NO film).
But you were *****ing about arcs not being finished in the film...
The same can be said for writers from the 70's, 80's right on up till now. Except the part about fantastic ideas, characters and mythologies.
I agree wholeheartedly. I don't think comics now are all that brilliant, either. Just a bit darker and a tad more focused.
When the kids are in danger in Incredibles it's just as effective. Violet's brother is in danger and she saves him. You care about them. The same could have been done in FF if the characters were fleshed out enough to care about.
I cared when Ben chose to give up what he wanted most in the world and showed up to save his friends from Doom. I cared when Sue fought Doom for Reed (though the dialogue sucked).
I think YOU want melodrama- because that's how things are portrayed in FF1. There's no subtlety. Everything is like a bad sitcom. And you don't seem to get that melodrama isn't a situation- it's how you portray a situation. You can handle it with realistic drama or make it melodramatic.
No, there's melodrama and drama. Both are acceptable forms of filmmaking. Especially in an adventure/superhero/science fiction film. Especially with these storylines and themes. Emotions run high, as they should. There is some subtley to the film. At least as much as anything else out there superherowise.
Things not being paint-by-numbers. They might not kiss when you expect them to.
And they didn't. Or did you want them not to kiss at the end of the film? I thought it was pretty unexpected when he kissed her nose...
She says no to the date or proposal. He has to take a different approach to win her. Al explained as the characters are examined.[/quote]
What sci-fi movies were hits in 1974 when Lucas was looking for funding?
I don't know. I wasn't around then.
The last major sci-fi film had been 2001, six years earlier. The only sci-fi stuff being done was low budget. There were no space epics at that time.
I thought I mentioned the low budget "serial" stuff.
Not until the recent films.
Have you ead Lucas's original STAR WARS scripts? He changed quite a bit, even after he came up with his new Star Wars concept.
The real issue of Reed telling Sue to stupidly run around in her underwear when he could've stretched over the crowd to get to Ben?
Sue never ran around in her underwear. She stood there. And does Reed even KNOW he's capable of that (Doesn't that defeat the "surprise" moment when he saves the fireman? What's Reed going to do when he gets over there to Ben? With Johnny not there, and Sue not there, how many people die in that explosion? And so forth...
I have no idea what you're talking about there. I'm saying they never had Sue running around in her underwear in the comics (Or at least not Stan & Jack).
Are you telling me they've NEVER had Sue in her underwear in the comics? And she doesn't "run around in her underwear". She stands in one spot, for the most part. And so what if Stan and Jack didn't do this. Stan and Jack are not the be-all-end-all of the Fantastic Four's potential.
Sue running around in ther underwear gets them NO WHERE. They are no closer to Ben than before she took her clothes off. Only after she re-dresses do they start to move forward- and they don't get to Ben until after the action is over.
That is simply not true. Watch the movie again. Getting past those cops enables them to be in a position they weren't before. A position they have to be in to save the lives they did (Johnny, the girl, Sue, the crowd, and Reed, the fireman).
Like I said- stretch over the crowd and get to Ben. Being his best friend, he was the one to calm Ben down anyway. Sue can catch up. Johnny, being an ass would've only made the situation worse.
Sue saved people. And Johnny saved that girl's life.
A practical reason for wearing the suits far outweighs a thematic one.
That's just nonsense. A practical reason alone outweights a practical AND thematic one?
The story lacked depth and character development.
No it didn't. It lacked certain kinds of depth, and ELABORATE character development.
The visuals were dull. It looked like a Sci-Fi Channel movie. The action was both silly and boring. Ben and Doom fighting in the pool? Johnny inexplicably redirecting the missile? The barge he burned wouldn't have been hotter than he was as he was constantly producing heat enough to keep him flying at high speed.
Dull visuals and boring action is pretty much down to opinion. A lot of the action comes right from the comics, so you must think it's silly there, too. Re: the barge, Johnny threw the flames so the HEAT SEEKING MISSLE would hit a hot target BEFORE it hit him. It's not about which source of heat is HOTTER. It's about which is THERE when the missle homes in on a heat source. He was still caught in the explosion, and flung into the water.
And his explanation was wrong, since his mission failed and he endangered the lives of his friends. Thast's another irony about the film. doom was RIGHT in wanting top kick Reed's ass. Any dumbass can run off theories. Anyone with a good memory could do what Reed did. Succeeding with his theories or learning a new way to amke them work would have shown him to be a great scientist. And that simply didn't happen.
You're another one of those "Heroes must be perfect and never make mistakes" people, aren't you? I assume Reed never, ever miscalculates or screws up in the comics?
No. I wanted him to PROVE he's the Smartest Man in the World.
How? A contest between Reed and every smart person in the world? The franchise isn't over. I thought you said it didn't all have to be in one film?
He doesn't have enough power? So he makes a way to GET THE POWER. How hard is that to understand?
How's he going to get the power, and how much pointless screentime will that eat up? That completely destroys the POINT of having Doom aid Ben.
Dude- if you have to change YOUR BASIC NATURE for someone- then you're with the wrong person.
No. That's natural occurences of those particular characters. Insecurity and misinterpretation happens to EVERYONE. It's still generic. Nothing new under the sun.
That's why it's generic. Reed and Sue, being unique people should have their own unique issues. If you look at any well-made romantic film, from Annie Hall to When Harry Met Sally to Jerry Maguire- they all show teh characters unique flaws and positives are what make and/or break the relationships. Reed and sue had no such qualities.
What you call generic, I call "human". You think those other films can't be boiled down to "generic" issues?
