A song of ice and fire = Jon Snow & Dany?

[Unbreakable Lex]

A Song of Ice and Fire is definitely a poetic title.

D&D are totally the guys to do the obvious thing. Ironically, that kind of makes them unpredictable.

One thing I noticed these last couple of episodes is that Cersei, Stannis, Dany, even Renly have all demanded that others kneel to them.

Jon, in the first episode of the season, asked Lord Umber and Lady Karstark to stand.

Exactly. I think the brilliance of GRRMs anti story is kinda lost now that the story is wrapping up. D&D have to wrap up the story without his brilliance, something many book readers have complained about. I am okay with it as long as the story stays true to what we have had thus far.

 

[Legendver2]

http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-targaryen-sex/

 

[Brother Jack]

Exactly. I think the brilliance of GRRMs anti story is kinda lost now that the story is wrapping up. D&D have to wrap up the story without his brilliance, something many book readers have complained about. I am okay with it as long as the story stays true to what we have had thus far.

What do you mean by anti-story? It sounds to me like, if Jon is the titular ice and fire and the defacto hero of the story, that the whole thing is really a fairly conventional hero's journey (complete with a death and resurrection) concealed within a sprawling and unpredictable world that GRRM built. That could be the ultimate twist to it, that there's really not much of a twist at all.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

The books are already a bt like, being both a deconstruction and a reconstruction. You see it in things like Jaime becoming a more honorable knight after his maiming, and the reforms Jon makes to the Night Watch as Lord Commander.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

What do you mean by anti-story? It sounds to me like, if Jon is the titular ice and fire and the defacto hero of the story, that the whole thing is really a fairly conventional hero's journey (complete with a death and resurrection) concealed within a sprawling and unpredictable world that GRRM built. That could be the ultimate twist to it, that there's really not much of a twist at all.

Anti-story in that it broke some of the troupes of traditional story telling. Its predictability was in its unpredictability. Things are becoming clearer now. Thats either due to the story simply ending or the show runners using more traditional story telling techniques. Many think the story is losing its edge the farther it gets from GRRMs story. Doesnt bother me and I sure hope we are in for more surprises. GRRM said the ending will be bittersweet.

 

[godisawesome]

The books are already a bt like, being both a deconstruction and a reconstruction. You see it in things like Jaime becoming a more honorable knight after his maiming, and the reforms Jon makes to the Night Watch as Lord Commander.

There's also a bot of reconstruction of altruism and honor as a policy in regards to governance; the Red Wedding and Tywin's other "realpolitik" decisions play a big role in the destruction of his house's hegemony, since no one is confused about what rules the Lannister's play by and all bets are off in regards to hospitality.

There's pretty much a direct line between Tywin clearly not bothering to cover up the fact that Joffrey, a clearly incompetent psychopath, is a puppet ruler for a Lannister cause willing to betray and murder a great lord's family at a wedding... And the Tyrell's deciding "okay, we'll just remove that puppet for one less dangerous to our young lady, at this wedding." And as many mistakes as the Starks made, their conduct still clearly acted as a constant liability to Bolton rule and enabled them to regain their standing with one single battle. Social mores exist fora reason, after all, even in feudal societies.

 

[Roose Bolton]

You could argue that the legacies of Ned vs Tywin was the main underlining theme of A Dance With Dragons. I mean one simply has to look at the state of House Stark against that of House Lannister.

“Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”

"My son Wendel came to the the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home."

"I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell … or die in the attempt."

Compare that with the general decline House Lannister goes through following Tywin's death. Ned's honour and general decency as a ruler and as a man left him deeply beloved in the eyes of the North (and elsewhere) so much so that you literally have half the country ready to march to their deaths just to liberate his home and free his little girl from the hands of a monster. Tywin's children on the other hand, have not been afforded that kind of loyalty, and indeed they're actively destroying their own house trying to continue in his style of leadership. GRRM's an idealistic and romantic at heart.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Anti-story in that it broke some of the troupes of traditional story telling. Its predictability was in its unpredictability. Things are becoming clearer now. Thats either due to the story simply ending or the show runners using more traditional story telling techniques. Many think the story is losing its edge the farther it gets from GRRMs story. Doesnt bother me and I sure hope we are in for more surprises. GRRM said the ending will be bittersweet.

the show has had its fair run of twists and turns, i don't think it would be bad for the story to be told rather straight forward now. having more twists just for the sake of unpredictability doesn't necessary make the story better.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Thats either due to the story simply ending or the show runners using more traditional story telling techniques.

It is a bit of both, I think. GRRM is heading in that direction, guided by the same principles as from the beginning. D&D are heading in that direction guided by more conventional principles.

Take Jon as King for example. The book has set up several factors for it happening, from things like his alliance with Alys Karstark, to Robb's will, lack of any available legitimate Starks, and potentially a more decisive role in the upcoming battle of Winterfell. The show on the other hand just had the northern lords name him king because they liked the idea.

 

[Loki882]

The Northern Lords themselves seemed to play a more important role in the books (from what I recall, it's been awhile since I read them). Like not wanting them to cause trouble plays a big role in the Bolton's actions in the books, whereas in the show they just kind of pop up suddenly later on.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

It is a bit of both, I think. GRRM is heading in that direction, guided by the same principles as from the beginning. D&D are heading in that direction guided by more conventional principles.

Take Jon as King for example. The book has set up several factors for it happening, from things like his alliance with Alys Karstark, to Robb's will, lack of any available legitimate Starks, and potentially a more decisive role in the upcoming battle of Winterfell. The show on the other hand just had the northern lords name him king because they liked the idea.

that was the same way it happened for Robb on the show, though. How did Robb become kitn in the books?

 

[BullMcGiveny]

that was the same way it happened for Robb on the show, though. How did Robb become kitn in the books?

I was talking about Jon.

 

[godisawesome]

You could argue that the legacies of Ned vs Tywin was the main underlining theme of A Dance With Dragons. I mean one simply has to look at the state of House Stark against that of House Lannister.







Compare that with the general decline House Lannister goes through following Tywin's death. Ned's honour and general decency as a ruler and as a man left him deeply beloved in the eyes of the North (and elsewhere) so much so that you literally have half the country ready to march to their deaths just to liberate his home and free his little girl from the hands of a monster. Tywin's children on the other hand, have not been afforded that kind of loyalty, and indeed they're actively destroying their own house trying to continue in his style of leadership. GRRM's an idealistic and romantic at heart.

I've always been of the opinion that Storm of Swords, with Tywin back in KL as the Hand, is very deliberately showing how, as woefully unprepared and naive as Ned was in GOT, Tywin, with all his vaunted skills, reputation, and ruthlessness, ultimately ends up with the same record as his predecessor: an underestimation of both Littlefinger and a powerful rival house you're technically allied with, a king dead, an inadequate inheritor in desperate need of guidance, some major faux-pas that leads to yet more unrest in the kingdom and a family member of the Lannisters in the hands of an enemy, and finall, a fatal end to the Hand's tenure.

While Ned is often correctly identified as a deconstruction of the fantasy hero archetype, I think people overlook just how much Tywin's character ends up being a deconstruction of the Machiavellian mastermind. Every single decision Tywin makes in ASOS is about pragmatically and ruthless ending a problem, and yet each one spawns greater problems.

Someone on one of the podcasts I listened to said that the series is ultimately about children struggling to learn the lessons of their parents' mistakes. Jon and Dany both seem to lean a bit too hard in the show towards copying their parents and idols; Jon's still a bit too bluntly self-sacrificing, and Dany is enamored with a feeling of innate superiority that could lead to either another Conqueror or Mad King. The good news is they both seem to have just enough reasonableness that they'll probably cooperate; whether that goes anywhere else remains to be seen.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Yeah, Tyrion basically sums it up nicely in ADWD:

"It all goes back and back," Tyrion thought, "to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance in our steads.”

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I was talking about Jon.

I know that, I am saying that on the show, Robb & Jon both became kitn in the same way.

 

[marvelrobbins]

well episodes are confirming the leaks were true.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

also, doesn't the fact that Melisandre say "I've united ice and fire" basically confirm the thread?

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I know that, I am saying that on the show, Robb & Jon both became kitn in the same way.

I see. Well, both were declared kings in the same way, but the circumstances were different for both.

a) For Robb's army and their Tully allies, they couldn't decide on who to declare for (Joffrey being incest spawn being unknown at the time), and Robb was the only one they could all accept.
b) They had just come off two decisive victories under Robb's leadership.
c) Robb was Ned's heir by every law in the land.
d) This was right at the beginning of the war, at the end of summer, years after the last war.

With Jon
a) House Stark's esteem was already damaged and the North had already surrendered.
b) The BoB was a costly victory, in which Jon showed his combat prowess, but not so much kingliness or leadership.
c) Jon is a bastard, obviously.

Jon becoming king, as he did in the show, is more Tolkein than GRRM. (I actually don't know much Tolkein, so I just mean more conventional fantasy)

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I see. Well, both were declared kings in the same way, but the circumstances were different for both.

a) For Robb's army and their Tully allies, they couldn't decide on who to declare for (Joffrey being incest spawn being unknown at the time), and Robb was the only one they could all accept.
b) They had just come off two decisive victories under Robb's leadership.
c) Robb was Ned's heir by every law in the land.
d) This was right at the beginning of the war, at the end of summer, years after the last war.

With Jon
a) House Stark's esteem was already damaged and the North had already surrendered.
b) The BoB was a costly victory, in which Jon showed his combat prowess, but not so much kingliness or leadership.
c) Jon is a bastard, obviously.

Jon becoming king, as he did in the show, is more Tolkein than GRRM. (I actually don't know much Tolkein, so I just mean more conventional fantasy)

yeah, both had different leadups but gained the title in the same way. But I agree with the Tolkein/GRRM comparison. Robb's naming of KingITN made more sense as in the middle of a war time.

 

[Legendver2]

Incest or not, I'm still shipping them lol

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

also, doesn't the fact that Melisandre say "I've united ice and fire" basically confirm the thread?

She is unaware of Jon coming from fire too though.

 

[Legendver2]

Dany and Jon would make sense, but Jon alone makes sense as well.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Incest or not, I'm still shipping them lol

same

She is unaware of Jon coming from fire too though.

This is true, even though Jon is fire, he is also ice, and Melisandre has helped bring that ice with this other fire together.

 

[Charlatan]

Dany and Jon would make sense, but Jon alone makes sense as well.

or both (fire) against the night king (ice)

it works in many ways and on a lot of levels.

heck it could as easily refer to R+L where a lot of it began.

I don't think it's supposed to be just one specific thing but everything.

 

[Legendver2]

or both (fire) against the night king (ice)

it works in many ways and on a lot of levels.

heck it could as easily refer to R+L where a lot of it began.

I don't think it's supposed to be just one specific thing but everything.

It seems it's a lot of 2x fire and 1x ice. Jon and Dany, Jon and Dany vs Night King. And if those leaks are anything to go by,

Spoiler

[BLACKOUT]Drogon and Rhaegal vs Ice Viserion. Pretty hyped on undead Viserion being the Night King's mount.[/BLACKOUT]