Alien vs Aliens

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The cast of space marines have been a movie cliche since WWII. In the old days, it was called the "Paramount platoon". Cameron was just the first to move them to space. Cameron gets points for taking a staple and recontexturizing it, but Cameron has never been one for original thinking in characterization.
I don't want to dump on Aliens. It is a great film. One of my favorites as well. And, heck, I've said for a long time that one of the reasons that people resort to cliches is because cliches work.

He basically put strong female characters on the map, how is that not original thinking?

 

[ttotheusher]

I personally prefer Aliens just because I identify with the characters more. I barely remember any of the original Alien crew, but nearly all of Aliens.

 

[Evil Twin]

He basically put strong female characters on the map, how is that not original thinking?

Ridley Scott did it first. For that matter, Carpenter did it to an extent with Jamie Lee Curtis in HALLOWEEN. And you can point to several other examples in the time period, Carrie Fisher was a feisty princess who would pick up a blaster, Karen Allen got to drink guys under the table and blast away with a machine gun in Raiders. Tyne Daly got to be Dirty Harry's partner in The Enforcer. You had Cleopatra Jones and various leads in samurai ninja, blaxploitation, and spaghetti westerns as well. Heck, Jane Fonda strapped on guns 20 years prior in Cat Ballou.

Now, Cameron may have been the first to do it as the lead character in a big budget, serious Hollywood action movie, albeit following in Ridley Scott's footsteps, and had stuck with it longer, but it's not like Cameron was dozens of years ahead of his time. Or the first to come up with the idea.

 

[Mutagen]

Alien Versus Predator: Requiem is the best of both franchises, but out of Alien against Aliens, I pick Aliens.

It was simply an improvement over the first.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

You've gotta be joking?!?! Please tell me you are joking?

AvP:R had the production values of a media studies homework course.

 

[Mutagen]

Really? I honestly though it was awesome.

I mean the humans were lame, but the Predator was great.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Ridley Scott did it first. For that matter, Carpenter did it to an extent with Jamie Lee Curtis in HALLOWEEN. And you can point to several other examples in the time period, Carrie Fisher was a feisty princess who would pick up a blaster, Karen Allen got to drink guys under the table and blast away with a machine gun in Raiders. Tyne Daly got to be Dirty Harry's partner in The Enforcer. You had Cleopatra Jones and various leads in samurai ninja, blaxploitation, and spaghetti westerns as well. Heck, Jane Fonda strapped on guns 20 years prior in Cat Ballou.

Now, Cameron may have been the first to do it as the lead character in a big budget, serious Hollywood action movie, albeit following in Ridley Scott's footsteps, and had stuck with it longer, but it's not like Cameron was dozens of years ahead of his time. Or the first to come up with the idea.

I didnt say Cameron created them or that he did it first, but he put them on the map, Ripley wasnt as prominent in Alien as she was in Aliens, THAT is when the character really took off, and Sarah Connor in T1 and T2, as I said earlier, put tough female's on the map.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well to each their own man.

But seriously, I would rather forget both AvP films. They are a disgrace to both franchises IMO. Requiem was just a special effects and ultra violence show case to me.

 

[Evil Twin]

Just a question, do the dozens of videogame shooters inspired by Aliens help in your identification with the characters? I'll be honest, of the people I've met, the space truckers strike me as more true to real life than the space marines, who strike me more as exagerrated types than real people.

 

[zanos]

Aliens is the obvious choice. That film was a masterpiece of filmmaking.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think this has been done before, but I choose Aliens, but BARELY. If I rate Aliens a 9.5/10 movie, Alien is a 9.49/10...these movies are very close in quality and strong for different reasons. Both are two of the best Sci-Fi films ever made, and showcase the talents of 2 of the best Sci-Fi directors of all time.

 

[Evil Twin]

I didnt say Cameron created them or that he did it first, but he put them on the map, Ripley wasnt as prominent in Alien as she was in Aliens, THAT is when the character really took off, and Sarah Connor in T1 and T2, as I said earlier, put tough female's on the map.

My argument is not that what Cameron did for females on film isn't significant. (Although I feel it's more significant in the case of Sarah Connor since Ridley Scott already covered that ground to a large extent in the case of Ripley.) My argument was that in 1985 it wasn't as original as people are trying to argue. Cameron has made many significant contributions to film, but updating the "Paramount platoon" to space, having a story of bickering divorcees reuniting, and "boy from the wrong side of the tracks falls for rich girl" aren't original ideas of characterization.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

My argument is not that what Cameron did for females on film isn't significant. (Although I feel it's more significant in the case of Sarah Connor since Ridley Scott already covered that ground to a large extent in the case of Ripley.) My argument was that in 1985 it wasn't as original as people are trying to argue. Cameron has made many significant contributions to film, but updating the "Paramount platoon" to space, having a story of bickering divorcees reuniting, and "boy from the wrong side of the tracks falls for rich girl" aren't original ideas of characterization.

As I said I think Ripley became a lot more of a prominent character after Aliens rather than she did after Alien. Aliens making her go from a mother figure to an absolute bad-ass was much more acknowledged for the character than simply being the sole survivor of the Nostromo.

And no, not all of Cameron's character's are original, but he develops them better than the majority of directors out there.

 

[CELTICPRED]

Which do you guys prefer, the special edition of Aliens, or the theatrical?

I've only seen the extended myself, but I hated the scene where we see what happened to Newt's parents and the colony.

I honestly can't watch the theatrical cut anymore. The extended just adds so much excellent character development.

As for Newt's family, I like the scene, it only adds to the tragedy that Newt has been through.

 

[CELTICPRED]

Alien Versus Predator: Requiem is the best of both franchises, but out of Alien against Aliens, I pick Aliens.

It was simply an improvement over the first.

Dude, I'm one of the few people who really enjoyed AVPR, but to put it as the best of both franchises is just wrong, but I guess it's your opinion.

 

[Evil Twin]

And no, not all of Cameron's character's are original, but he develops them better than the majority of directors out there.

I agree with that, mostly. Cameron could never direct a straight drama like SCHINDLER'S LIST, but of the action/science fiction genre he's one of the best at getting good performances out of actors. Although, it would help if he hired someone else to write the dialogue.

 

[Mutagen]

Well to tell you the truth the Predator in AVP:R was my favourite, it's what made it my favourite. The human characters and stories are separated from my preference.

The weapons, the look, the honor, it just made me happy to see the Predator done right since the first Arnold flick.

 

[Rishi]

Special Edition of The Abyss, T2 and Aliens I believed were better then the theatrical. Though all around they rule, the Special Editions/DC's were much more involved and added more emotion/story.

From what I hear, the Abyss SE is universally preferred

as far as T2.. I strongly disagree. The only scenes from the extended one that I like are the reprogramming of Arny and the Smile scene... everything else is either redundant or just dumb (the smile is dumb but i dont care t

I especially hate the flashback with reese, and the glitching t-1000. in the climax, when john has to look down at the t-1000s feet the pace of the scene is completely ruined

 

[Octoberist]

wait, unless I'm reading it wrong, did you say that AVP: R is the best, over Alen, Aliens, and Predator?

 

[CELTICPRED]

From what I hear, the Abyss SE is universally preferred

as far as T2.. I strongly disagree. The only scenes from the extended one that I like are the reprogramming of Arny and the Smile scene... everything else is either redundant or just dumb (the smile is dumb but i dont care t

I especially hate the flashback with reese, and the glitching t-1000. in the climax, when john has to look down at the t-1000s feet the pace of the scene is completely ruined

The smile attempt was rightfully cut from the film IMO, as Cameron said, it's completely wrong for the tone of the scene.

I love the Reese dream sequence, and I as well hated the glitching t-1000, the little shiver that goes up his body in the foundry scene was enough to show that he was malfunctioning.

 

[Octoberist]

I love the glitching t-1000.

 

[Mutagen]

The best character in the Predator yes, not music, directing or acting.

For the aliens however I liked Aliens the best.

For actual movie of them all; Predator.

 

[Spider-Fan]

AvPR was terrible. As was AvP.

 

[Evil Twin]

The only part of the Aliens special edition that really adds anything is the sentry guns. The colony stuff definitely was removed from the theatrical cut with no loss. Personally, I prefer the leaner cut.

The Abyss makes little sense with the theatrical cut. The extended cut is a drastic improvement and the only version worth watching.

I too found the extra T2 scenes redundant. That's a movie that's at its best rocketing from one action scene to the next.

 

[CELTICPRED]

AvPR was terrible. As was AvP.

I enjoy AVPR for what it is. It's a stupid romp featuring both creatures. Like said above, at least there was decent Predator action.

I enjoyed it 10 times more than AVP.