am I the only one who DIDN'T think Nicholson nailed joker??

[shauner111]

Jack was petrified hanging onto that ladder.

 

[CountOrlok]

I'm sorry, Count, but Joker looks about mid 20's in TKJ origin:

Same in the aforementioned Batman Confidential one:

Even though he looks young in those few couple of panels, is his age actually stated?

A couple of creases on his face when he smiles doesn't make him look wrinkly lol. Even Batman's face creases up when he smiles:

It's not a sign of old age. Some people's facial skin just crease when they smile;

His face is hardly "wrinkled":

Joker has always been portrayed as having a wrinkled face, with laugh lines and all that. Even Heath Ledger's makeup was done to make him older and more wrinkled.

I wouldn't call Joker's facial expression in B'89 when the gargoyle is dragging him down the ladder a look of disbelief and acceptance. He looks scared, IMO:

Your opinion, besides, it might just be the shock (IE: disbelief) of the weight from the gargoyle. You'll also notice he tries to smile again just before he falls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYdYlmriPDo

When people say Jack was playing himself as the Joker they mean it's the same crazy Jack style of acting. Obviously all the characters are different, but the same manic Jack acting style is there in all his performances.

After Easy Rider, he was typecast into rebellious characters, then especially after Cuckoo's Nest, he graduated to crazy, off-the-wall type characters. Just how hollywood works. But he's proven time and again that he's a great versatile actor, hence the 3 oscar wins and nominations.

 

[The Joker]

Even though he looks young in those few couple of panels, is his age actually stated?

No never. But you can make an educated guess based on his appearance. The artists clearly chose to draw him look like a young man.

Joker has always been portrayed as having a wrinkled face, with laugh lines and all that. Even Heath Ledger's makeup was done to make him older and more wrinkled.

It's not wrinkled, it's just brow and facial creases when he smiles. A lot of younger people have them, especially when they smile. It's not meant to be an indicator of older age.

Your opinion, besides, it might just be the shock (IE: disbelief) of the weight from the gargoyle.

Yes my opinion backed up by the fact that he looked scared the entire time he was slowly slipping down that ladder, coupled with the terrified scream he makes when he eventually falls, it's pretty obvious he was scared, not in shock.

You'll also notice he tries to smile again just before he falls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYdYlmriPDo

......that does not look anything like an attempt at smiling to me.

What about you, Shauner, does it look like it to you?

After Easy Rider, he was typecast into rebellious characters, then especially after Cuckoo's Nest, he graduated to crazy, off-the-wall type characters. Just how hollywood works. But he's proven time and again that he's a great versatile actor, hence the 3 oscar wins and nominations.

I'm not denying he's a brilliant actor. He's Jack Nicholson. He's a legend. But he does have his own unique style when doing these crazy types of characters. You can see it in his performances. Joker included.

 

[CountOrlok]

No never. But you can make an educated guess based on his appearance. The artists clearly chose to draw him look like a young man.

Film canon is different to comic canon, anyway. It's not like this Joker was planned to be around for sequels. Hence, no point making him young just for the sake of it. We still got a younger looking Joker in Bruce's flashback scene, anyway.

It's not wrinkled, it's just brow and facial creases when he smiles. A lot of younger people have them, especially when they smile. It's not meant to be an indicator of older age.

They deliberately designed the makeup to look that way. It wasn't by accident.

Yes my opinion backed up by the fact that he looked scared the entire time he was slowly slipping down that ladder, coupled with the terrified scream he makes when he eventually falls, it's pretty obvious he was scared, not in shock.

Not really obvious. He barely had time to react. He even laughed when he got tied to the gargoyle. But obviously, with the weight and everything after the gargoyle comes loose, he finally realised the 'gravity' of his situation.

......that does not look anything like an attempt at smiling to me.

Yes it does. And then there's the shock of the fall, yet he still had time to activate his laughing device, showing he didn't die scared at all.

I'm not denying he's a brilliant actor. He's Jack Nicholson. He's a legend. But he does have his own unique style when doing these crazy types of characters. You can see it in his performances. Joker included.

He doesn't do 'crazy' in all of his performances. About Schmidt, for example. Of course, every actor has their own trademark and style.

 

[The Joker]

Film canon is different to comic canon, anyway. It's not like this Joker was planned to be around for sequels. Hence, no point making him young just for the sake of it. We still got a younger looking Joker in Bruce's flashback scene, anyway.

That's not really the point these people were making. It was that the Joker was portrayed as a much older man than he usually is, and that felt off to them.

They deliberately designed the makeup to look that way. It wasn't by accident.

Because they're trying to emulate the look of the character from the comics. But again facial smiling creases are not a sign of older age.

Not really obvious. He barely had time to react. He even laughed when he got tied to the gargoyle. But obviously, with the weight and everything after the gargoyle comes loose, he finally realised the 'gravity' of his situation.

He had lots of time to react. We watch him slowly slip down two rungs of the ladder before he finally falls. The whole time he looks scared. He even looks down and sees the big drop beneath him when he first starts to slip. Bags of reaction here.

It's clear as day, with no room for doubt.

Yes it does. And then there's the shock of the fall, yet he still had time to activate his laughing device, showing he didn't die scared at all.

No, it doesn't. Not remotely. There was no shock of the fall here. He saw it coming. He had plenty of time to. It wasn't an instant or quick drop between the time he was strapped to that gargoyle and he fell. As for his laughing device, it seemed very obvious it got activated from the impact of the fall, particularly since it was tucked inside his coat.

He doesn't do 'crazy' in all of his performances. About Schmidt, for example. Of course, every actor has their own trademark and style.

I never said he did crazy all the time. I was talking specifically about his crazy characters.

Like Jim Carey, he has his own brand of crazy style with his quirky characters, which he used with his Riddler, but you don't see in his more serious roles like Eternal Sunshine and the Spotless Mind.

 

[CountOrlok]

That's not really the point these people were making. It was that the Joker was portrayed as a much older man than he usually is, and that felt off to them.

Until his age is actually stated, it's all just opinion.

Because they're trying to emulate the look of the character from the comics. But again facial smiling creases are not a sign of older age.

I never said they were, but like you said, they were trying to emulate the look of the character from the comics.

He had lots of time to react. We watch him slowly slip down two rungs of the ladder before he finally falls. The whole time he looks scared. He even looks down and sees the big drop beneath him when he first starts to slip. Bags of reaction here.

It's clear as day, with no room for doubt.

Or it could just be from shock/disbelief. Unless Jack Nicholson confirms that was his intention for that scene.

No, it doesn't. Not remotely. There was no shock of the fall here. He saw it coming. He had plenty of time to. It wasn't an instant or quick drop between the time he was strapped to that gargoyle and he fell. As for his laughing device, it seemed very obvious it got activated from the impact of the fall, particularly since it was tucked inside his coat.

Then why did he die with a big grin on his face? Also, he didn't have "plenty of time", he had seconds to react, and all that time the gargoyle was pulling every muscle in his body.

I never said he did crazy all the time. I was talking specifically about his crazy characters.

Like Jim Carey, he has his own brand of crazy style with his quirky characters, which he used with his Riddler, but you don't see in his more serious roles like Eternal Sunshine and the Spotless Mind.

I don't see that as a criticism, unless you think his style is annoying or doesn't fit the character. Otherwise, "jack just playing Jack" isn't really a criticism.

 

[The Joker]

Until his age is actually stated, it's all just opinion.

No, it's not opinion that Jack looked older than Joker usually is portrayed. A factual statement of his age isn't going to magically change his appearance lol.

I never said they were, but like you said, they were trying to emulate the look of the character from the comics.

Ok. I'm not sure why you were bringing it up then....

Or it could just be from shock/disbelief. Unless Jack Nicholson confirms that was his intention for that scene.

You don't need Jack Nicholson to tell you his acting in that scene was supposed to convey one of fear.

That's the face of a man who's petrified.

Then why did he die with a big grin on his face?

"If you gotta go, go with a smile". He cracked a smile before he cracked the pavement lol.

Also, he didn't have "plenty of time", he had seconds to react, and all that time the gargoyle was pulling every muscle in his body.

Oh my god this is getting ridiculous;

That is the first of several reaction shots of him after that gargoyle starts pulling him down. Staring down at the big drop he's being slowly pulled towards. He knew what was happening to him, that he was slipping to his death, and he was terrified.

I don't see that as a criticism, unless you think his style is annoying or doesn't fit the character. Otherwise, "jack just playing Jack" isn't really a criticism.

It is to people who think the character should feel completely unique. Like how Ledger, Hamill, even Romero played the character like nothing they'd ever done.

 

[Fudgie]

Jack was petrified hanging onto that ladder.

Heh that's because he was. CountOrlok is in denial because he doesn't want his fav Joker to look like a fraidy cat. It's like trying to argue Batman didn't look pissed when he was beating up the J-Man for killing his folks. It's soooooo obvious. Joker was bricking it on that ladder.

 

[CountOrlok]

No, it's not opinion that Jack looked older than Joker usually is portrayed. A factual statement of his age isn't going to magically change his appearance lol.

Again, you've only shown a couple of panels, but for the most part of his comic history Joker looked about 40-ish. Before he became Joker is a different story, but even then his origin sometimes changes from being the Red Hood style criminal like Jack Napier or a family man.

You don't need Jack Nicholson to tell you his acting in that scene was supposed to convey one of fear.

That's the face of a man who's petrified.

That's the look of a man who just realised "oh ****, I'm about to die".

(And btw, Heath Ledger knew Batman was going to save him, Nicholson didn't, so Heath Ledger wasn't being fearless)

Oh my god this is getting ridiculous;

That is the first of several reaction shots of him after that gargoyle starts pulling him down. Staring down at the big drop he's being slowly pulled towards. He knew what was happening to him, that he was slipping to his death, and he was terrified.

Then why does he try and crack a smile just before he falls? Watch the scene again.

It is to people who think the character should feel completely unique. Like how Ledger, Hamill, even Romero played the character like nothing they'd ever done.

There are others who enjoy Jack Nicholson's performance and feel there enough differences from his other performances to make his Joker performance unique.

 

[The Joker]

Again, you've only shown a couple of panels

Two more than you've shown.

but for the most part of his comic history Joker looked about 40-ish.

No he really doesn't.

Oldest I'd say he looks predominately is mid to late 30's. Considering Batman is supposed to be several years into his career now, some comics have put a time stamp as long as 10 years, it makes sense, since Joker originally looks like a man in his 20's in his origin stories.

Before he became Joker is a different story, but even then his origin sometimes changes from being the Red Hood style criminal like Jack Napier or a family man.

The one consistency in all his origins DC has shown is he is a young man. That is a fact. Even the BTAS universe did:

That's the look of a man who just realised "oh ****, I'm about to die".

Exactly. A terrified man because he realizes he's going to die.

(And btw, Heath Ledger knew Batman was going to save him, Nicholson didn't, so Heath Ledger wasn't being fearless)

Rubbish. How did he know Batman would save him? The reason he was laughing was because he thought he'd finally gotten Batman to break his one rule. That's why he stopped laughing when Batman caught him. Joker spent the movie trying to turn people into killers. Batman, Dent, the Gotham citizens etc.

I can't believe you even said that lol.

Then why does he try and crack a smile just before he falls? Watch the scene again.

He doesn't. You're seeing things that are not there, or you're just making it up in some thin attempt to make him look fearless.

There are others who enjoy Jack Nicholson's performance and feel there enough differences from his other performances to make his Joker performance unique.

Well of course there is. No opinion is universal. That doesn't invalidate those who think otherwise. Pointing out there's people who feel differently doesn't change that.

 

[CountOrlok]

Two more than you've shown.

Because I don't think they show his face before he became Joker in the original Red Hood origin.

No he really doesn't.

Oldest I'd say he looks predominately is mid to late 30's. Considering Batman is supposed to be several years into his career now, some comics have put a time stamp as long as 10 years, it makes sense, since Joker originally looks like a man in his 20's in his origin stories.

Late 30's is close enough. Btw, the pics you chose were selected by you, his had hundreds of appearances. Until his age is actually given, it's all conjecture anyway.

The one consistency in all his origins DC has shown is he is a young man. That is a fact. Even the BTAS universe did:

What about his original Red Hood origin story?

Exactly. A terrified man because he realizes he's going to die.

Or it could be shock/disbelief.

Rubbish. How did he know Batman would save him? The reason he was laughing was because he thought he'd finally gotten Batman to break his one rule. That's why he stopped laughing when Batman caught him. Joker spent the movie trying to turn people into killers. Batman, Dent, the Gotham citizens etc.

I can't believe you even said that lol.

Because he knew about Batman's rule against killing, and that he had the opportunity to kill him before on the batpod yet didn't. Michael Keaton tried to kill Nicholson's Joker twice before.

He doesn't. You're seeing things that are not there, or you're just making it up in some thin attempt to make him look fearless.

It's there. Clearly.

Well of course there is. No opinion is universal. That doesn't invalidate those who think otherwise. Pointing out there's people who feel differently doesn't change that.

It may not invalidate them, but it's still just their opinion.

 

[AnneFan]

As for his laughing device, it seemed very obvious it got activated from the impact of the fall, particularly since it was tucked inside his coat.

Agreed. As soon as the gargoyle is fixed to his leg, Joker is absolutely terrified. Nothing at all points to the contrary. The only smile he gets out of it is by default - a frozen death grin. Same with the laugh box.

 

[The Joker]

Because I don't think they show his face before he became Joker in the original Red Hood origin.

No they didn't. I have it. First time they showed his face pre Joker was in TKJ, a comic book Tim Burton claims he loves and used as inspiration for B'89.

What's your point?

Late 30's is close enough.

Close enough to what? A Joker who looks in his 50's?

Btw, the pics you chose were selected by you, his had hundreds of appearances.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Yeah the pics were obviously selected by me since it's my post. Just some examples of how he doesn't look like he's in his 40's.

That's been the core of this whole discussion. Nicholson's Joker looks older than how Joker is usually portrayed, and that feels off for some people.

Nothing you say is going to change that, so I don't get what you're trying to prove here arguing back and forth about what age you like to think Joker really is.

Until his age is actually given, it's all conjecture anyway.

Again a definitive declaration of his age is not going to change how young he looks.

What about his original Red Hood origin story?

They never showed what he looked like under the hood in that. So it really doesn't count.

Or it could be shock/disbelief.

No it couldn't because the facial reactions and behavior in that scene are not those of a man in shock or disbelief. It's of a man who is very scared and knows he's slipping to his death.

Because he knew about Batman's rule against killing, and that he had the opportunity to kill him before on the batpod yet didn't. Michael Keaton tried to kill Nicholson's Joker twice before.

Hence why he was trying to get Batman to break it by provoking him into killing him. When Batman threw him off the building he obviously thought he had finally succeeded. When Batman saved him at the last minute, Joker stopped laughing, and said to Batman when he pulled him back up "You truly are incorruptible aren't you". He finally realized that he was not going to be able to make Batman into a killer.

You are the first person since July 2008 I have ever seen grossly misinterpret this straight forward scene. I think you're just doing it to be argumentative.

It's there. Clearly.

For you. Again I've never seen anyone else make this observation before. You got any examples of other people seeing this, too?

It may not invalidate them, but it's still just their opinion.

Yeah, just like the ones who think otherwise are speaking opinion. What's your point? That they are not entitled to think Jack's performance was wrong for the Joker?

Agreed. As soon as the gargoyle is fixed to his leg, Joker is absolutely terrified. Nothing at all points to the contrary. The only smile he gets out of it is by default - a frozen death grin. Same with the laugh box.

THANK YOU

Another voice of reason.

 

[AnneFan]

Hence why he was trying to get Batman to break it by provoking him into killing him. When Batman threw him off the building he obviously thought he had finally succeeded. When Batman saved him at the last minute, Joker stopped laughing, and said to Batman when he pulled him back up "You truly are incorruptible aren't you". He finally realized that he was not going to be able to make Batman into a killer.

The only way the scene can be interpreted. The Joker saw his death as a victory, hence the laughter. He's silent after his rescue, but holds onto his 'ace in the hole' in Harvey as his back-up victory. Something that had lasting ramifications.

 

[The Joker]

The only way the scene can be interpreted. The Joker saw his death as a victory, hence the laughter. He's silent after his rescue, but holds onto his 'ace in the hole' in Harvey as his back-up victory. Something that had lasting ramifications.

Again thank you

I think CountOrlok is just trolling at this point saying stuff like this. Nobody could possible interpret the scene that incorrectly. It's practically impossible.

 

[CountOrlok]

No they didn't. I have it. First time they showed his face pre Joker was in TKJ, a comic book Tim Burton claims he loves and used as inspiration for B'89.

What's your point?

"Inspiration", yep, but it wasn't The Killing Joke Joker. His origin is closer to the Red Hood than The Killing Joke.

Close enough to what? A Joker who looks in his 50's?

A middle-aged Joker. Late 30's is close to middle-age. Nicholson was about 50, so he was in that range.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Yeah the pics were obviously selected by me since it's my post. Just some examples of how he doesn't look like he's in his 40's.

First appearance. Looks at least 40 here.

That's been the core of this whole discussion. Nicholson's Joker looks older than how Joker is usually portrayed, and that feels off for some people.

Nothing you say is going to change that, so I don't get what you're trying to prove here arguing back and forth about what age you like to think Joker really is.

Nicholson looks middle-aged. The Joker, in many of his appearances, looks middle-aged. You can post examples of him looking younger, but that doesn't counter my point.

Again a definitive declaration of his age is not going to change how young he looks.

It ain't going to change how old he looks in various appearances, either.

They never showed what he looked like under the hood in that. So it really doesn't count.

Exactly, so he could be 40, 50, 30, 20... we don't know.

No it couldn't because the facial reactions and behavior in that scene are not those of a man in shock or disbelief. It's of a man who is very scared and knows he's slipping to his death.

Your opinion.

Hence why he was trying to get Batman to break it by provoking him into killing him. When Batman threw him off the building he obviously thought he had finally succeeded. When Batman saved him at the last minute, Joker stopped laughing, and said to Batman when he pulled him back up "You truly are incorruptible aren't you". He finally realized that he was not going to be able to make Batman into a killer.

That doesn't mean he was fearless. He was trying to win a psychological game against Batman. Crazy, but not fearless. Nicholson was not trying to prove that Batman would kill him. He had already tried to kill him twice before, yet Ledger had been saved by Batman once before, therefore it was more likely that Ledger expected Batman to save him again.

You are the first person since July 2008 I have ever seen grossly misinterpret this straight forward scene. I think you're just doing it to be argumentative.

It's there. I even posted an image:

You can see he is trying to smile, but the strain from the weight pulling him down is making it difficult. I even posted a video of the scene.

For you. Again I've never seen anyone else make this observation before. You got any examples of other people seeing this, too?

I don't think many people are as obsessed with this movie as I am lol.

Yeah, just like the ones who think otherwise are speaking opinion. What's your point? That they are not entitled to think Jack's performance was wrong for the Joker?

They can think what they like, but I'm never going to agree.

 

[The Joker]

"Inspiration", yep, but it wasn't The Killing Joke Joker. His origin is closer to the Red Hood than The Killing Joke.

The only thing that origin has in common with Nicholson's is the fall into the chemicals after being confronted by Batman. That also happened in TKJ. Both the original and TKJ have him wearing the Red Hood suit, too.

The point is Burton knew Joker was a younger man, and cast against his age range.

A middle-aged Joker. Late 30's is close to middle-age. Nicholson was about 50, so he was in that range.

You're kidding. He's over 10 years off the mark. That is not in the same age range lol.

First appearance. Looks at least 40 here.

No, he really doesn't. He looks like he's in his 30's. Which again makes sense since the actor Joker was based off, Conrad Veidt in The Man Who Laughs, was 35 years old in that.

Bit of trivia for you.

Nicholson looks middle-aged. The Joker, in many of his appearances, looks middle-aged. You can post examples of him looking younger, but that doesn't counter my point.

Nicholson looked 50. He looked older than the Joker usually is portrayed. That's why some people have a problem with it because it feels of to them.

That does counter your point.

It ain't going to change how old he looks in various appearances, either.

That's what I just said. His looks are not going to change if DC gives him an official age. He'll still look in his 30's, and in his 20's in his origins.

Whereas Nicholson looked 50.

Exactly, so he could be 40, 50, 30, 20... we don't know.

We know approximately based off both how he looks as the Joker, and in his origin stories when you get to see his face.

It's not a coincidence that every origin that has showed his face has done so by portraying him as a young looking man in his 20's. It helps coincide with his 30's look as the Joker.

Your opinion.

And a more well informed one than yours, too.

That doesn't mean he was fearless. He was trying to win a psychological game against Batman. Crazy, but not fearless. Nicholson was not trying to prove that Batman would kill him. He had already tried to kill him twice before, yet Ledger had been saved by Batman once before, therefore it was more likely that Ledger expected Batman to save him again.

Of course it meant he was fearless. Just like he put a gun in Dent's hand and was prepared to let him shoot him, too, if it meant it would turn him into a killer.

The Joker showed no fear of anything in TDK. Which again coincides with the comic book character because he is fearless, too. Ever see what happened when he got sprayed with Scarecrow's fear gas:

It's there. I even posted an image:

.....what has that got to do with TDK's final scene between Batman and Joker?

You can see he is trying to smile, but the strain from the weight pulling him down is making it difficult. I even posted a video of the scene.

That does not look like he's trying to smile. He looks like he's straining from being pulled/hanging on.

I think you're grossly misinterpreting that perma grin he has as an attempt to smile.

I don't think many people are as obsessed with this movie as I am lol.

That I can believe lol. So in other words you don't have any examples of other people making this observation, too. I didn't really think you did but I had to ask.

They can think what they like, but I'm never going to agree.

Who's asking you to agree?

 

[Timed]

Middle aged looking,

Middle aged looking,

Middle aged looking,

Middle aged looking,

Middle aged looking and hefty (reminds me of Jay Leno)

Middle aged looking,

Joker afraid,

Joker afraid,

Joker afraid,

Joker afraid,

Joker afraid,



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO9LHPqScoY

[YT]eO9LHPqScoY[/YT]

 

[Timed]

Joker afraid,

 

[CountOrlok]

The only thing that origin has in common with Nicholson's is the fall into the chemicals after being confronted by Batman. That also happened in TKJ. Both the original and TKJ have him wearing the Red Hood suit, too.

The point is Burton knew Joker was a younger man, and cast against his age range.

You have no proof about what Burton 'knew'. And you forgot to mention in his original Red Hood origin he was a master criminal like Jack Napier and not a family man forced into crime like in The Killing Joke. Therefore, it makes sense that his origin would be closer to Red Hood and not The Killing Joke.

You're kidding. He's over 10 years off the mark. That is not in the same age range lol.

Give or take:

Young adult = 20-40
Middle-aged = 40-60
Old age = 60-80

(Based on average human life span of ~80 years.

No, he really doesn't. He looks like he's in his 30's. Which again makes sense since the actor Joker was based off, Conrad Veidt in The Man Who Laughs, was 35 years old in that.

Bit of trivia for you.

But he's not based off the actor, Conrad Veidt.

Nicholson looked 50. He looked older than the Joker usually is portrayed. That's why some people have a problem with it because it feels of to them.

That does counter your point.

Agree to disagree.

That's what I just said. His looks are not going to change if DC gives him an official age. He'll still look in his 30's, and in his 20's in his origins.

Whereas Nicholson looked 50.

Ok, still your opinion.

We know approximately based off both how he looks as the Joker, and in his origin stories when you get to see his face.

It's not a coincidence that every origin that has showed his face has done so by portraying him as a young looking man in his 20's. It helps coincide with his 30's look as the Joker.

That's two origin stories, and that other one you posted may have been published after 1989. Either way, we don't know what he looked like in his original origin story because his face wasn't shown. So, Batman '89 is at least consistent with his original origin story in that way.

Of course it meant he was fearless. Just like he put a gun in Dent's hand and was prepared to let him shoot him, too, if it meant it would turn him into a killer.

The Joker showed no fear of anything in TDK. Which again coincides with the comic book character because he is fearless, too. Ever see what happened when he got sprayed with Scarecrow's fear gas:

Heath Ledger was fearless because he was in control of the situation. Both when Harvey had the gun on him, when Batman almost ran him down and when Batman threw him off the building.

Nicholson's Joker wasn't in control in that scene when he was hanging from the helicopter.

.....what has that got to do with TDK's final scene between Batman and Joker?

That was in response to my point that you can see Nicholson trying to smile before he falls.

That does not look like he's trying to smile. He looks like he's straining from being pulled/hanging on.

I think you're grossly misinterpreting that perma grin he has as an attempt to smile.

Compare the scene to Jack Napier just as he is about to fall into the acid. Napier's look is one of definite fear. Joker's look is totally different, you don't see fear in his eyes, more shock, and then trying to regain his composure.

That I can believe lol. So in other words you don't have any examples of other people making this observation, too. I didn't really think you did but I had to ask.

Even if I did have examples, what would that prove to you?

 

[The Joker]

Edit.

 

[Timed]

No, sorry. Unless the Joker was smoking crack or doing drugs in the 1940s, a 20-35 year old shouldn't have excessive wrinkles and bags under their eyes. He looks like a straight up, gaunt, creepy old man in that scene where he's at his desk plotting. The Joker through most of his entire 70s run looked like a middle aged man with that face and that receding hair line which *gasp* the Nicholson Joker had in spades. Dark Knight Returns Joker is set in a future? And? It's still a valid example. Batman and Joker aren't always 20 or 30 in their respective stories.

BTAS Joker is fearless? Then why is he screaming for Batman and looking like he's about to piss himself in "The Last Laugh"? "B-BATMAAAAAN, you wouldn't let me fry would you!?!" BTAS Joker is fearless? How come in the "Joker's Favor" he's scared when Charlie Collins (a nobody) is threatening to kill the both of them? I seem to recall him literally hiding behind Batman's cape. There's even other scenes, like Mad Love, where Batman punches him and he's screaming into the smoking stack. If he's fearless, they could have fooled me.


Joker, "not wanting to get a lickin'"? Joker looks terrified in the Killing Joke panel when Batman bursts through the mirrors at the carnival. He looks pathetic with his slack jawed mouth screaming "AAAAAAAAA!" at the top of his lungs. If Joker is fearless, why is he shaking in the last panel you quoted? Surely he's used to a Batman beating and could just laugh it off, ala, Ledger Joker?

 

[The Joker]

You have no proof about what Burton 'knew'. And you forgot to mention in his original Red Hood origin he was a master criminal like Jack Napier and not a family man forced into crime like in The Killing Joke. Therefore, it makes sense that his origin would be closer to Red Hood and not The Killing Joke.

Of course I have proof he knew. If he read the comic book like he claims then he knew. How could he miss it?

Jack Napier was not a master criminal. He was a hood for Carl Grissom, the mob boss of Gotham, with a record of jail incarcerations.

Give or take:

Young adult = 20-40
Middle-aged = 40-60
Old age = 60-80

Since Joker is clearly in his 30's, he's not middle aged. So Nicholson's Joker is way off the mark. He's 50.

But he's not based off the actor, Conrad Veidt.

Yes he is. Don't you know your comic book trivia?

Ok, still your opinion.

Again a more informed one than yours.

That's two origin stories, and that other one you posted may have been published after 1989. Either way, we don't know what he looked like in his original origin story because his face wasn't shown. So, Batman '89 is at least consistent with his original origin story in that way.

You are so hung up on the original story. DC showed what he looked like under the hood later on, so we know he was a young man. Just because something was not seen in the original story doesn't invalidate it.

If anything Batman '89 is inconsistent with the original story because it gave Joker a definitive name, back story, and didn't even have the Red Hood schtick.

Heath Ledger was fearless because he was in control of the situation. Both when Harvey had the gun on him, when Batman almost ran him down and when Batman threw him off the building.

How in the name of god was in control of the situation there? What was stopping Harvey from killing him? He didn't know that:

1. Harvey was going to decide his fate with a coin toss

2. Or that the coin would come up good side.

He also had no idea that Batman would not run him down in the street, or save him when he threw him off the building. Why do you think he stopped laughing when Batman saved him? Because it wasn't funny. He realized he failed to make him break his one rule again. Hence why he said to him "You truly are incorruptible aren't you" when Batman pulled him up.

No offense but you are either being stupid or deliberately argumentative because you are 100% factually wrong here. Nobody would back you up on that.

Nicholson's Joker wasn't in control in that scene when he was hanging from the helicopter.

Joker was not in control of the situations in TDK either. Difference is he's fearless and Nicholson wasn't.

That's a fact.

That was in response to my point that you can see Nicholson trying to smile before he falls.

But you quoted my point about 2008 when you said it.

Compare the scene to Jack Napier just as he is about to fall into the acid. Napier's look is one of definite fear. Joker's look is totally different, you don't see fear in his eyes, more shock, and then trying to regain his composure.

Their looks are exactly the same. They both look terrified, and guess what, they both scream in terror when they fall, too.

There's no grey area here. He was scared in both scenes.

Even if I did have examples, what would that prove to you?

It would certainly help show that you're not just making this up, that other people have actually noticed it, too.

 

[CountOrlok]

(To Timed)

^Amen.

 

[The Joker]

No, sorry. Unless the Joker was smoking crack or doing drugs in the 1940s, a 20-35 year old shouldn't have excessive wrinkles and bags under their eyes. He looks like a straight up, gaunt, creepy old man in that scene where he's at his desk plotting. The Joker through most of his entire 70s run looked like a middle aged man with that face and that receding hair line which *gasp* the Nicholson Joker had in spades.

The guy has survived chemical waste immersion. Of course he's going to look creepy with screwed up eyes. Sometimes they even look bloodshot like he has been smoking crack:

The panda eye look is like a trait of the character. Heath Ledger's Joker had it, too, and he was 28 years old and with a receding hairline.

Dark Knight Returns Joker is set in a future? And? It's still a valid example. Batman and Joker aren't always 20 or 30 in their respective stories.

It's not a valid example if the story is deliberately set ten years in the future where Batman is 50 years old and so is Joker.

BTAS Joker is fearless? Then why is he screaming for Batman and looking like he's about to piss himself in "The Last Laugh"? "B-BATMAAAAAN, you wouldn't let me fry would you!?!" BTAS Joker is fearless? How come in the "Joker's Favor" he's scared when Charlie Collins (a nobody) is threatening to kill the both of them? I seem to recall him literally hiding behind Batman's cape. There's even other scenes, like Mad Love, where Batman punches him and he's screaming into the smoking stack. If he's fearless, they could have fooled me.

Because it was done for comical effect, of course. This was a Saturday morning cartoon. Like Joker tripping on a roller skate and nearly falling into the pit of lava.

If he actually feared death he wouldn't have been laughing when it looked like he, Andrea, and Batman were all about to get blown up.

Joker, "not wanting to get a lickin'"? Joker looks terrified in the Killing Joke panel when Batman bursts through the mirrors at the carnival. He looks pathetic with his slack jawed mouth screaming "AAAAAAAAA!" at the top of his lungs. If Joker is fearless, why is he shaking in the last panel you quoted? Surely he's used to a Batman beating and could just laugh it off, ala, Ledger Joker?

Batman burst through a mirror, surprised him and grabbed him. There's a big difference between that and the situation with Ledger where he was goading him into attacking him.