AMC's Hell on Wheels

[Dr Lee]

Damn you Chris Heyerdahl..... why'd you have to play such a sick mother****er so well???

Shocked that

Spoiler

they killed Lily... really thought she was safe after she made the deal with Elam....

It'll be very interesting to see the fallout next season

 

[Wolfwood]

Holy ****, what a ****ed up ending.

Spoiler

I really hope that the Swede is dead, but they kind of left it with an out. I mean, hell, that one guy survived being shot in the mouth so why couldn't the Swede survive the fall?

By the way, anyone know the song played at the end?

 

[charl_huntress]

By the way, anyone know the song played at the end?

According to someone on another board the song is: "Devil's Waitin'" by Black Rebel Motorcycle Club

Also, if you watch AMC's Inside the Episode it does seem that the Swede is dead. He jumped to rob Cullen of his vengeance of hanging him, but considering O'Toole came back I think there is some mystery there.

A lot of folks are upset that [BLACKOUT]Lily is dead[/BLACKOUT], but I think her character arc was pretty much done and I couldn't stand the romance anyway.

Great season finale.

 

[Arc-Light]

According to someone on another board the song is: "Devil's Waitin'" by Black Rebel Motorcycle Club

Also, if you watch AMC's Inside the Episode it does seem that the Swede is dead. He jumped to rob Cullen of his vengeance of hanging him, but considering O'Toole came back I think there is some mystery there.

A lot of folks are upset that [BLACKOUT]Lily is dead[/BLACKOUT], but I think her character arc was pretty much done and I couldn't stand the romance anyway.

Great season finale.

Dont agree at all...killing off 2 of the better characters in the show equals that shows death...hope i am wrong..

 

[charl_huntress]

Dont agree at all...killing off 2 of the better characters in the show equals that shows death.

How so?

I actually like how they advanced Cullen. Things with the RR will be more personal and he wasn't that invested in the RR to begin with. Considering he came there for vengeance and was willing to leave not more than 2 episodes ago.

The killing of the two characters represented moving the story forward.

 

[James]

I liked the ending a lot.

I would love to see

Spoiler

The Swede come back. If season 3 opens with him floating face down only for his eyes to spring open, that would be cool with me.

One thing I've been trying to wrap my head around for a long time, is why the Swede does the things he does? I know he got feathered and tarred, and I guess he blamed Bohannan for that, losing his status, etc...but did he really hate Bohannan that much he'd do all the stuff he did? Seems a little over the top (although he was nuts). Or was he more like The Joker, causing chaos for the sake of chaos?

 

[charl_huntress]

but did he really hate Bohannan that much he'd do all the stuff he did? Seems a little over the top (although he was nuts). Or was he more like The Joker, causing chaos for the sake of chaos?

I think it was a combo of both. He wanted to cause chaos to mess with the RR, but he also hated Cullen. For the Swede, Cullen represented his loss of power and he hated him...pure and simple.

 

[Hunter Rider]

The finale played like a series finale more than a season finale, they killed off the two most important characters after Bohannon and Elam, wrapped up the Tool issue and finished up Durant's arc.

There really isn't anywhere to go with a 3rd season, they took Cullen's love/redemption and his nemesis out of play, essentially sending him back to square one.

The revenge plot is something they seemed to drop completely this season so there isn't that angle to play either, plus a character like Cullen needs a Lilly and she was a really strong character as opposed to some naive damsel in distress, she was the perfect match with him.

 

[charl_huntress]

The revenge plot is something they seemed to drop completely this season so there isn't that angle to play either, plus a character like Cullen needs a Lilly and she was a really strong character as opposed to some naive damsel in distress, she was the perfect match with him.

While I agree they left the ball hanging with the revenge plot, I don't see Lily as playing an important role in Cullen's journey. Her entire angle was to be a part of the RR and she was willling to sleep with and then blackmail Durant to achieve this end.

I guess I didn't see her as a strong character or a perfect match for Cullen. For me she lacked back bone and was no better then the other ****es in the camp.

 

[Hunter Rider]

While I agree they left the ball hanging with the revenge plot, I don't see Lily as playing an important role in Cullen's journey. Her entire angle was to be a part of the RR and she was willling to sleep with and then blackmail Durant to achieve this end.

I guess I didn't see her as a strong character or a perfect match for Cullen. For me she lacked back bone and was no better then the other ****es in the camp.

She was a survivor, completely alone amongst dishonorable, violent men and a corrupt businessman, the one man she thought she could trust bolted at the end of last season so she found a way to survive, thrive and in the end turn the tables on the corrupt businessman and out manouver the violent ones.

She was a woman of a civilized society thrust into a rough and ruthless man's world, and she gave Cullen something to live for other than revenge, she was strong enough to stand by a man like him and be his partner as opposed to his doormat. I don't see how she lacked any backbone at all because her two options were stay and fight with the weapons she had, or run back to England, she stuck it out and beat those who were against her.

 

[charl_huntress]

She was a survivor, completely alone amongst dishonorable, violent men and a corrupt businessman, the one man she thought she could trust bolted at the end of last season so she found a way to survive, thrive and in the end turn the tables on the corrupt businessman and out manouver the violent ones.

She was a woman of a civilized society thrust into a rough and ruthless man's world, and she gave Cullen something to live for other than revenge, she was strong enough to stand by a man like him and be his partner as opposed to his doormat. I don't see how she lacked any backbone at all because her two options were stay and fight with the weapons she had, or run back to England, she stuck it out and beat those who were against her.

She was a survivor yes, but no more a suvivor then any of the other ****es in the camp. They were all surviving and I don't see Lily as any different just because she was more "civilized" or well spoken. I also disagree she gave Cullen something to live for. I mean, the man didn't even tell her about his aristocratic upbringing.

Personally, I saw Lily and Cullen's relationship as one of convenience. Yes, it could have developed, but Lily was more interested in the RR and what Cullen could do to necessitate her being a part of the RR. I think it is very telling that he neglected telling her about himself and also thought that if she knew everything about him then she would turn away. It was clear to me in the finale and in previous episodes that he didn't realy see this relationship as lasting.

 

[Hunter Rider]

She was a survivor yes, but no more a suvivor then any of the other ****es in the camp. They were all surviving and I don't see Lily as any different just because she was more "civilized" or well spoken. I also disagree she gave Cullen something to live for. I mean, the man didn't even tell her about his aristocratic upbringing.

Personally, I saw Lily and Cullen's relationship as one of convenience. Yes, it could have developed, but Lily was more interested in the RR and what Cullen could do to necessitate her being a part of the RR. I think it is very telling that he neglected telling her about himself and also thought that if she knew everything about him then she would turn away. It was clear to me in the finale and in previous episodes that he didn't realy see this relationship as lasting.

She was completely different to the other women, they ****ed anything with money, she simply manipulated the sleazy top man with her beauty and then leveraged a position to take him out which is no different to Cullen and Elam using violence to attaln their positions. Had Swede not killed her she would be running the RR with Cullen, the other women would still be lying on their backs all day every day for every unwashed gimp with a dollar in their pocket.

The relationship with her and Cullen was just starting to develop so there were things he hadn't told her but clearly the chemistry was there and he saw her as his chance at something more than hate and revenge, and she saw him as the kind of man that she could stand by the side of and complete the RR the right way with, he even says the job and her are all he has and she was the reason he didn't leave after he killed Doc.

My guess is there wont be a season 3, without Lilly and the Swede it's really only Bohannon moping and building a RR which is not really the show's focus, the RR was always just the backdrop.

If you look at the way the ep ends Elam and Eva are together, Bohannon will plow on with his miserable existance and finish what Lilly and her husband had started, and the Preacher, The Swede, Lilly, Tool and the Durant's are all wrapped up as you would do with a series finale as opposed to a season finale.

 

[charl_huntress]

She was completely different to the other women, they ****ed anything with money, she simply manipulated the sleazy top man with her beauty and then leveraged a position to take him out which is no different to Cullen and Elam using violence to attaln their positions. Had Swede not killed her she would be running the RR with Cullen, the other women would still be lying on their backs all day every day for every unwashed gimp with a dollar in their pocket.

The relationship with her and Cullen was just starting to develop so there were things he hadn't told her but clearly the chemistry was there and he saw her as his chance at something more than hate and revenge, and she saw him as the kind of man that she could stand by the side of and complete the RR the right way with, he even says the job and her are all he has and she was the reason he didn't leave after he killed Doc.

My guess is there wont be a season 3, without Lilly and the Swede it's really only Bohannon moping and building a RR which is not really the show's focus, the RR was always just the backdrop.

If you look at the way the ep ends Elam and Eva are together, Bohannon will plow on with his miserable existance and finish what Lilly and her husband had started, and the Preacher, The Swede, Lilly, Tool and the Durant's are all wrapped up as you would do with a series finale as opposed to a season finale.

No, she was not completely different then them. Sure, she had higher ambitions, but her aims were the same. Also, if another person had come along with the ability to offer her what she wanted (the RR), do you think she wouldn't have slept with them too? This is why disagree that she truly saw Cullen as someone she could 'relate' to. As it is, they shaed nothing in common since Cullen neglected to tell her who he really was. Lily saw Cullen as an opportunity...same as she saw Durant. Also, even when the Swede pointed out the inconsistency of the books, she didn't throw Durant under the bus until he tried to push her out. Again, the only difference between Lily and the ****es was she was smarter then them. That doesn't make her actions any less reprehensible.

Again, there was chemistry between Cullen and Lily, but he was unwilling to release crucial facts about himself. She learned these facts second hand. Not because he told her. I disagree Lily saw him as anything more then a way to achieve her input on the RR.

I don't think Elam and Eva's relationships is set in stone. I don't think there was resolution there; however, Eva was a ****e, so who is to say. Cullen still has a lot of RR to build and there is a lot more to be told. He's journey with Lily ended, but I think his mission to the RR will be strengthened by Lily's.....

 

[Hunter Rider]

No, she was not completely different then them. Sure, she had higher ambitions, but her aims were the same. Also, if another person had come along with the ability to offer her what she wanted (the RR), do you think she wouldn't have slept with them too? This is why disagree that she truly saw Cullen as someone she could 'relate' to. As it is, they shaed nothing in common since Cullen neglected to tell her who he really was. Lily saw Cullen as an opportunity...same as she saw Durant. Also, even when the Swede pointed out the inconsistency of the books, she didn't throw Durant under the bus until he tried to push her out. Again, the only difference between Lily and the ****es was she was smarter then them. That doesn't make her actions any less reprehensible.

She was completely different as her motivations are not the same, they had nothing but living hand to mouth off the scraps they were given from what they earned on their backs. Lily could have went straight home had she desired, instead she manipulated Durant and bided her time. Cullen has nothing in common with anybody, he's a damaged lone wolf but Lily, much like his wife, appealed to part of him not hardened by war and violence. As for reprehensible, if we are going to judge characters in this show by the world we live in then there are far worse people than Lily. Cullen killed a man in cold blood who hadn't done anything, Elam murdered a man for money, Tool was a bigot and Durant was a crook who was paying to have a woman murdered, Lily banging Durant to give herself the protection of rail car to sleep in and then using her hold on Durant to position herself in a strong role is mild compared to the rest.

Again, there was chemistry between Cullen and Lily, but he was unwilling to release crucial facts about himself. She learned these facts second hand. Not because he told her. I disagree Lily saw him as anything more then a way to achieve her input on the RR.

That pretty much sums Cullen up, he guards everything but his relationship with Lily was just reaching a new point, and as he said "Did you like me better when I was stupid?" was essentially him saying he wanted to see if she loved him for him and not what part of society he came from. I don't think she saw him as that, I mean if you are a woman in her position you need a man in those days, but are you saying most women wouldn't fall for a guy like Cullen? I think what she saw was the best of both worlds, a man who could do what Durant could do but someone she also loved and was attracted to.

I don't think Elam and Eva's relationships is set in stone. I don't think there was resolution there; however, Eva was a ****e, so who is to say. Cullen still has a lot of RR to build and there is a lot more to be told. He's journey just end with Lily. In fact, I think his mission to the RR will be strengthened by Lily.

The RR is just the backdrop IMO I don't think people care about if it gets built because we know it does, Cullen's personal journey was what mattered and the RR just represents the tiresome struggle to get by. They have taken away his crafty rich boss, his main enemy and his love, I just don't see a 3rd season happening.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Hell of a season finale (no pun intended). Still in shock over Lily. Damn. I loved her character and I'm a sucker for romance, so I was glad when she finally got together with Cullen. Really wasn't expecting her to die. Glad Eva survived though.

And I guarantee the Swede isn't dead.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Hell of a season finale (no pun intended). Still in shock over Lily. Damn. I loved her character and I'm a sucker for romance, so I was glad when she finally got together with Cullen. Really wasn't expecting her to die. Glad Eva survived though.

And I guarantee the Swede isn't dead.

I expected Swede to do a Bourne and start swimming, but no one could survive that fall, especially hitting at the angle he did and apparently there was something said by the producer and writer after the finale that confirms he's dead......I mean they could have him miraculously survive but like I say, I don't think there will be a 3rd season.

 

[charl_huntress]

She was completely different as her motivations are not the same, they had nothing but living hand to mouth off the scraps they were given from what they earned on their backs.

How are Lily's motivation's any different than the ****es? You do recall season one where she would have been living hand to mouth, but instead decided to sleep with Durant. She made a conscious choice to sleep with him so she could avoid this fate. She knew what she was doing.

Lily could have went straight home had she desired, instead she manipulated Durant and bided her time.

Right, but she made a ****e's choice to use her body to manipulate him and gain some favor. Again, how is that different then the rest of the ****es who use their body to better their fate?

Cullen has nothing in common with anybody, he's a damaged lone wolf

I disagree with this on face. A lot of people in HoW are like Cullen, but Cullen is the baddest. That's how the show made him.

Lily, much like his wife, appealed to part of him not hardened by war and violence. As for reprehensible, if we are going to judge characters in this show by the world we live in then there are far worse people than Lily. Cullen killed a man in cold blood who hadn't done anything, Elam murdered a man for money, Tool was a bigot and Durant was a crook who was paying to have a woman murdered, Lily banging Durant to give herself the protection of rail car to sleep in and then using her hold on Durant to position herself in a strong role is mild compared to the rest.

I'm not judging. I'm saying she is no different than ****es because of her actions, and that is true as you just said. She could have gone home to England, but she stayed. So, it's not as though she didn't have any other options. In my view, she would have slept with anyone who could have gotten her that RR...not just Durant. You can't make her into some saint of virtue because she was attracted to Cullen, but slept with Durant out of convenience. Again, that makes her a ****e. That's my point.

That pretty much sums Cullen up, he guards everything but his relationship with Lily was just reaching a new point, and as he said "Did you like me better when I was stupid?" was essentially him saying he wanted to see if she loved him for him and not what part of society he came from. I don't think she saw him as that, I mean if you are a woman in her position you need a man in those days, but are you saying most women wouldn't fall for a guy like Cullen? I think what she saw was the best of both worlds, a man who could do what Durant could do but someone she also loved and was attracted to.

I disagree. Again, she would have slept with anyone who could get her that RR (or just simple comfort). Also, why didn't Cullen tell her about himself? If he trusted her and loved her then he would have told her. I don't think he loved her at all, which is why he neglected to tell her those things.

The RR is just the backdrop IMO I don't think people care about if it gets built because we know it does, Cullen's personal journey was what mattered and the RR just represents the tiresome struggle to get by. They have taken away his crafty rich boss, his main enemy and his love, I just don't see a 3rd season happening.

I care. I enjoy the drama of that period because it was a brutal time. I think season three could be better than season one and two because it will bring focus back to HoW. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of history knows Durant was on the way out. Credit Mobilier took him down, but I didn't watch the show for Lily and Cullen. I like how they made Cullen and his quest tantamount to the RR being built. That's why I think there will be a third season.

 

[Hunter Rider]

How are Lily's motivation's any different than the ****es? You do recall season one where she would have been living hand to mouth, but instead decided to sleep with Durant. She made a conscious choice to sleep with him so she could avoid this fate. She knew what she was doing.

The motivations are different because she had a full plan to forge a prosperous life for herself, for instance the position she was in was one that meant when the RR was built she was in the money and a position of power. The hookers motivations were just to not get killed, Lilly slept with Durant to obtain a status she would have had, had her husband not been killed, she had worked long and hard with him before she got to RR. In the end she was always going to rid herself of Durant, the hookers were never going to see any upward mobility in their lives.

Right, but she made a ****e's choice to use her body to manipulate him and gain some favor. Again, how is that different then the rest of the ****es who use their body to better their fate?

You seem hung up on the fact she slept with Durant to get herself in a position of power, Elam and Cullen kill people to do the same, thus are they ****es? A ****e, and btw I abore the term but that's another deal, by definition is a woman who has sex for money with any guy with a wallet, the women in the show who are working the ****e trade will screw 40 guys a week or whatever for a dollar a pop, Lily slept with one guy as a means to an end, her other option was to live in a tent with the potential to be raped or murdered. She took the action that best fitted her chances or gaining the life she was aiming for before her husband was killed. You have to factor in the time period as well, many women married or slept with men for security not love or even lust.

I disagree with this on face. A lot of people in HoW are like Cullen, but Cullen is the baddest. That's how the show made him.

I don't see Cullen as anything like the others, he has lost everything, his heart should be as hard as a rock, but his conflict comes from the man he wanted to be for his wife and his sense of honor, something the other characters all lack.

I'm not judging. I'm saying she is no different than ****es because of her actions, and that is true as you just said. She could have gone home to England, but she stayed. So, it's not as though she didn't have any other options. In my view, she would have slept with anyone who could have gotten her that RR...not just Durant. You can't make her into some saint of virtue because she was attracted to Cullen, but slept with Durant out of convenience. Again, that makes her a ****e. That's my point.

I never said she was a saint but again I am saying you are hung up on the fact she slept with Durant to survive. Remember when she came into the show her future was with the RR with her husband, she wanted it along with him and when he died she had to do what she could to keep her own dream alive. If you recall she initally used the maps as a way to leverage Durant, then when she gave them to him and Cullen bolted she was in a position where sleeping with Durant saved her life, so she did what she had to do.

I disagree. Again, she would have slept with anyone who could get her that RR (or just simple comfort). Also, why didn't Cullen tell her about himself? If he trusted her and loved her then he would have told her. I don't think he loved her at all, which is why he neglected to tell her those things.

The RR was her dream, as I said she came into the show as someone who saw the RR as her future, so yes she wanted to succeed, but my point is that Cullen represented the best of both worlds, a Man she could love and also who could help her maintain her dream. So yes she would have used Durant as long as needed but with Cullen she had the chance to have everything.

I care. I enjoy the drama of that period because it was a brutal time. I think season three could be better than season one and two because it will bring focus back to HoW. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of history knows Durant was on the way out. Credit Mobilier took him down, but I didn't watch the show for Lily and Cullen. I like how they made Cullen and his quest tantamount to the RR being built. That's why I think there will be a third season.

Ok you care which is fair enough, but in my view most people watch shows for the characters, this show is already low in the ratings and they just took out the love interest and two great villains, to me that's wrapping things up. I don't think most people are sitting their gripped by the building of the RR because we all know it got built and Cullen finishing it is not the pay off, his feuds with Swede and Durant, and his relationship with Lily were the pay offs IMO.

 

[charl_huntress]

The motivations are different because she had a full plan to forge a prosperous life for herself, for instance the position she was in was one that meant when the RR was built she was in the money and a position of power. The hookers motivations were just to not get killed, Lilly slept with Durant to obtain a status she would have had, had her husband not been killed, she had worked long and hard with him before she got to RR. In the end she was always going to rid herself of Durant, the hookers were never going to see any upward mobility in their lives.

C'mon on Hunter! That's the point. If her husband had lived she would have had a place beside him, but her husband died. She was left alone and she carried on as best she could. I don't blame her for taking the hooker's way. Yet, she was a willing accomplice with Durant until he threw her under the bus. She had no motivations up until she discoved that he was being shady with the books, which she discovered after Durant was shot. I will also add, she wouldn't have discovered this if it wasn't for the Swede to begin with. She could not even read what was going on up until the Swede helped her. The ****es motivations are no different than Lily. In fact, one hooker who triumphed was Eva....No wonder they shared some kindred spirit.

You seem hung up on the fact she slept with Durant to get herself in a position of power, Elam and Cullen kill people to do the same, thus are they ****es? A ****e, and btw I abore the term but that's another deal, by definition is a woman who has sex for money with any guy with a wallet, the women in the show who are working the ****e trade will screw 40 guys a week or whatever for a dollar a pop, Lily slept with one guy as a means to an end, her other option was to live in a tent with the potential to be raped or murdered. She took the action that best fitted her chances or gaining the life she was aiming for before her husband was killed. You have to factor in the time period as well, many women married or slept with men for security not love or even lust.

Durant called Lily a '****e' and he was right. She was no different than them. Again, she slept with Durant because she needed comfort (in more ways then one). Though Lily didn't get paid in the literal sense. She was paid in kind by having power and she used it to her satisfaction. She touted using it when she went up agains the Irish brothers. She also used it against the Swede in season one. Again, there is no saying she wouldn't have slept with anyone who could provide her the RR and power. Lily had become fixated on that RR in a way that was unhealthy. I don't need to factor in that women had to survive in many other ways because those that did so on their backs where 'hookers".

I don't see Cullen as anything like the others, he has lost everything, his heart should be as hard as a rock, but his conflict comes from the man he wanted to be for his wife and his sense of honor, something the other characters all lack.

Did you miss Elam's story in seaon one? He was born of a master of slaves. As I said before, everyone is HoW is like Cullen, but he is the baddest and the most willing to kill. That doesn't make him a hero, but it does make him the focus of the story. His journery is what is important...Not Lily and Cullen riding off into the sunset.

I never said she was a saint but again I am saying you are hung up on the fact she slept with Durant to survive. Remember when she came into the show her future was with the RR with her husband, she wanted it along with him and when he died she had to do what she could to keep her own dream alive. If you recall she initally used the maps as a way to leverage Durant, then when she gave them to him and Cullen bolted she was in a position where sleeping with Durant saved her life, so she did what she had to do.

As you said, she could have taken a different option. Why sleep with Durant?

The RR was her dream, as I said she came into the show as someone who saw the RR as her future, so yes she wanted to succeed, but my point is that Cullen represented the best of both worlds, a Man she could love and also who could help her maintain her dream. So yes she would have used Durant as long as needed but with Cullen she had the chance to have everything.

So you admit she used Durant like a ****e uses her body? Again...NO difference then the 'hookers' in the camp. Who is to say she wasn't using Cullen in the same way?

Ok you care which is fair enough, but in my view most people watch shows for the characters, this show is already low in the ratings and they just took out the love interest and two great villains, to me that's wrapping things up. I don't think most people are sitting their gripped by the building of the RR because we all know it got built and Cullen finishing it is not the pay off, his feuds with Swede and Durant, and his relationship with Lily were the pay offs IMO.

I want to see more of Cullen. Lily was a side factor and because I knew Durant was always on his way out that doesn't matter either. Again, I enjoy watching the trials and tribulations of one of the biggest accomplishments in American history. I want to see that....not the Lily and Cullen show.

 

[Hunter Rider]

C'mon on Hunter! That's the point. If her husband had lived she would have had a place beside him, but her husband died. She was left alone and she carried on as best she could. I don't blame her for taking the hooker's way. Yet, she was a willing accomplice with Durant until he threw her under the bus. She had no motivations up until she discoved that he was being shady with the books, which she discovered after Durant was shot. I will also add, she wouldn't have discovered this if it wasn't for the Swede to begin with. She could not even read what was going on up until the Swede helped her. The ****es motivations are no different than Lily. In fact, one hooker who triumphed was Eva....No wonder they shared some kindred spirit.

Lots of women have sex with men they have no feelings for, are they all ****es? She had a dream, to fight for that dream she had to do something she didn't want to do, much like Cullen and elam killing in order to survive. Lily wanted to finish what she started with the RR, it was obvious she had no love for Durant but saw him as security and used him, much as he was using her. Any opportunity that arose to remove Durant from the picture was clearly in her sights.

Durant called Lily a '****e' and he was right. She was no different than them. Again, she slept with Durant because she needed comfort (in more ways then one). Though Lily didn't get paid in the literal sense. She was paid in kind by having power and she used it to her satisfaction. She touted using it when she went up agains the Irish brothers. She also used it against the Swede in season one. Again, there is no saying she wouldn't have slept with anyone who could provide her the RR and power. Lily had become fixated on that RR in a way that was unhealthy. I don't need to factor in that women had to survive in many other ways because those that did so on their backs where 'hookers".

Durant called her that because he was a bitter old bastard who knew he'd been played, I mean if she is a ****e what are he and his horrid wife? Lily made a lot of plays in order to protect herself and what's hers, the hookers simply **** dudes for cash, it's not the same at all, she used her looks to manipulate Durant, Cullen and Elam kill to make their positions strong, it's the same thing and totally different to banging a bunch of dudes for money with no prospects of ever moving past it or up in the world.

Did you miss Elam's story in seaon one? He was born of a master of slaves. As I said before, everyone is HoW is like Cullen, but he is the baddest and the most willing to kill. That doesn't make him a hero, but it does make him the focus of the story. His journery is what is important...Not Lily and Cullen riding off into the sunset.

I know what Elam's story is but it isn't the same as Cullen's, he isn't like Cullen at all. His journey is centered on him finding something to live for and that is not the RR, that is simply something to do, he doesn't care about it. The very focus of the story from the start was that he is the way he is because he lost his wife and son, without Lily or some other relationship to give him peace he will never get out of the cycle he's in.

As you said, she could have taken a different option. Why sleep with Durant?

Because she wanted to finish what she started with the RR so she slept with him in order to gain a powerful position within the building of the RR, if she hadn't she would have either had to go back to England to a life she detested, or live in a tent and most likely get raped or killed.

So you admit she used Durant like a ****e uses her body? Again...NO difference then the 'hookers' in the camp. Who is to say she wasn't using Cullen in the same way?

She used Durant like a muppet being played by a smarter woman, a guy she was going to cast aside as soon as she had the leverage, a ****e simply gets drilled and collects her coins, it's a business. Lily was simply using Durant as a pawn. Who is to say she wasn't using Cullen the same way? well simply the very way their relationship was portrayed shows she had strong feelings for him, and I mean look at him and tell me most women wouldn't find it easy to fall for him? remember what Tool said? "I wish Eva would look at me the way Miss Bell looks at you", even a knuckle dragger like Tool could see what was there.

I want to see more of Cullen. Lily was a side factor and because I knew Durant was always on his way out that doesn't matter either. Again, I enjoy watching the trials and tribulations of one of the biggest accomplishments in American history. I want to see that....not the Lily and Cullen show.

That sounds more like a History channel documentary than a TV drama to me. IMO shows are about characters and their relationships and you would have to search far and wide to find one where a relationship of the Cullen and Lily type is not a very central focus, so I disagree she was a side plot, she was Cullen's shot at something more than his road to hell. Cullen's journey never had anything to do with the RR, it was always about trying to find his peace.

 

[charl_huntress]

Lots of women have sex with men they have no feelings for, are they all ****es? She had a dream, to fight for that dream she had to do something she didn't want to do, much like Cullen and elam killing in order to survive. Lily wanted to finish what she started with the RR, it was obvious she had no love for Durant but saw him as security and used him, much as he was using her. Any opportunity that arose to remove Durant from the picture was clearly in her sights.

I would say yes she is a ****e because if you aren't sleeping with them because you are fundamentally attracted then what is the point? Except for some gain or benefit. So....if Lily wasn't a hooker what was she? A shrewd women willing to use her wiles to get what she wanted? Again, what is the difference?

Durant called her that because he was a bitter old bastard who knew he'd been played, I mean if she is a ****e what are he and his horrid wife? Lily made a lot of plays in order to protect herself and what's hers, the hookers simply **** dudes for cash, it's not the same at all, she used her looks to manipulate Durant, Cullen and Elam kill to make their positions strong, it's the same thing and totally different to banging a bunch of dudes for money with no prospects of ever moving past it or up in the world.

How is it different except for using the tools available to them? Lily ****ed Durant for power. She ****ed Durant to move up from her current position. Noticeably, she ****ed him after not being able to make her own camp and survive on her own after turning him down many times. How is she different then the hookers? The plays she made were for power and comfort. Again, not that different than the ****es. Their total life ambitions represent nothing more then what they thought they could achieve in life. Lily was raised with better morals and standards and subscribed to more, but she was willing to **** a man she didn't like or wasn't attracted to for the profit of her goals. Call that what you want, but it is what it is. Durant's words were on point. She ****ed herself.

Again, she could have gone back to England.

I know what Elam's story is but it isn't the same as Cullen's, he isn't like Cullen at all. His journey is centered on him finding something to live for and that is not the RR, that is simply something to do, he doesn't care about it. The very focus of the story from the start was that he is the way he is because he lost his wife and son, without Lily or some other relationship to give him peace he will never get out of the cycle he's in.

I actually think the story of HoW is about a lot of people, poor and rich, hinging their life to the completion of the RR. That completion was not guaranteed. Many people saw it as a job, but that job consumed their lives. Much like it did Lily.

Because she wanted to finish what she started with the RR so she slept with him in order to gain a powerful position within the building of the RR, if she hadn't she would have either had to go back to England to a life she detested, or live in a tent and most likely get raped or killed.

So why isn't she a ****e?

She used Durant like a muppet being played by a smarter woman, a guy she was going to cast aside as soon as she had the leverage, a ****e simply gets drilled and collects her coins, it's a business. Lily was simply using Durant as a pawn. Who is to say she wasn't using Cullen the same way? well simply the very way their relationship was portrayed shows she had strong feelings for him, and I mean look at him and tell me most women wouldn't find it easy to fall for him? remember what Tool said? "I wish Eva would look at me the way Miss Bell looks at you", even a knuckle dragger like Tool could see what was there.

Cullen would be easy to fall for. Anson is handsome...

Though, that doesn't excuse Lily for sleeping with Durant. There is a scene in the earlier episodes where Lily is reading what appears to be book, but she covers it when someone enters. Again, she knew what she was doing and waited for the opportune time to do so. She just needed the Swede to determine what stuff was out of order.

Before Durant was shot she had an inkling he was being shady with the finances, but it wasn't until she was pushed out that she pulled out the guns and tried to screw him. Again, still a hooker...just smarter than the rest.

Lily liked Cullen, but she was more interested in the RR then anything else...or him.

That sounds more like a History channel documentary than a TV drama to me. IMO shows are about characters and their relationships and you would have to search far and wide to find one where a relationship of the Cullen and Lily type is not a very central focus, so I disagree she was a side plot, she was Cullen's shot at something more than his road to hell. Cullen's journey never had anything to do with the RR, it was always about trying to find his peace.

Cullen came to the RR because of vengeace, but I'd love to see what would happen if he was actually emotinally invested.

I was not interested in Lily and Cullen, or their romance. In fact, I found her character to be deplorable. I had more respect for Ruth and her passive-aggressiveness then Lily and her hooker ways.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I would say yes she is a ****e because if you aren't sleeping with them because you are fundamentally attracted then what is the point? Except for some gain or benefit. So....if Lily wasn't a hooker what was she? A shrewd women willing to use her wiles to get what she wanted? Again, what is the difference?



How is it different except for using the tools available to them? Lily ****ed Durant for power. She ****ed Durant to move up from her current position. Noticeably, she ****ed him after not being able to make her own camp and survive on her own after turning him down many times. How is she different then the hookers? The plays she made were for power and comfort. Again, not that different than the ****es. Their total life ambitions represent nothing more then what they thought they could achieve in life. Lily was raised with better morals and standards and subscribed to more, but she was willing to **** a man she didn't like or wasn't attracted to for the profit of her goals. Call that what you want, but it is what it is. Durant's words were on point. She ****ed herself.

Again, she could have gone back to England.



I actually think the story of HoW is about a lot of people, poor and rich, hinging their life to the completion of the RR. That completion was not guaranteed. Many people saw it as a job, but that job consumed their lives. Much like it did Lily.



So why isn't she a ****e?



Cullen would be easy to fall for. Anson is handsome...

Though, that doesn't excuse Lily for sleeping with Durant. There is a scene in the earlier episodes where Lily is reading what appears to be book, but she covers it when someone enters. Again, she knew what she was doing and waited for the opportune time to do so. She just needed the Swede to determine what stuff was out of order.

Before Durant was shot she had an inkling he was being shady with the finances, but it wasn't until she was pushed out that she pulled out the guns and tried to screw him. Again, still a hooker...just smarter than the rest.

Lily liked Cullen, but she was more interested in the RR then anything else...or him.



Cullen came to the RR because of vengeace, but I'd love to see what would happen if he was actually emotinally invested.

I was not interested in Lily and Cullen, or their romance. In fact, I found her character to be deplorable. I had more respect for Ruth and her passive-aggressiveness then Lily and her hooker ways.

We are going around in circles here Charl, it has been fun but I just don't see us getting anywhere. You find Lily depolorable but clearly don't find any of the other characters that way, or at least you are giving them a free pass.

To me the show is about Cullen and for him to find his peace and IMO that was with Lily, two survivors who had been through hell and were using the RR as a way to make a life for themselves. She loved him and wanted to build the RR with him, that to me was how the story and their relationship was presented

To me Lily represented a strong and smart woman who did what she had to in order to try and not only survive but reach her end goals, which is far more interesting and more realistic than some salt of the earth maiden who does no wrong, no one in HOW has clean hands, hers were cetainly no dirtier thjan Cullens or Elams or Durants, all just trying to get by.

To me a ****e if we must use the double standard term is a woman who has sex for money, any other kind of sex is just sex, she used it to achieve her goals, not as a job, in the same way the male characters use violence to achieve theirs, but I am not gonna change your mind and that is fine with me, I doubt we'll get a chance to debate whether a season 3 works better without Lily and the Swede who I think is just as big of a loss.

It has been a pleasure though Ma'am. *tips hat*

 

[charl_huntress]

It has been a pleasure though Ma'am. *tips hat*

Same to you kind sir! t:

 

[Rowsdower!]

I expected Swede to do a Bourne and start swimming, but no one could survive that fall, especially hitting at the angle he did and apparently there was something said by the producer and writer after the finale that confirms he's dead......I mean they could have him miraculously survive but like I say, I don't think there will be a 3rd season.

Oh, they confirmed that he died? Huh. Well, I guess I was wrong, then. Still, it was a cool way to kill him... he essentially found one last way to stick it to Bohannon.

I hope it does get renewed for another season, but I'm not sure where it could go from here, at least for Bohannon and the Durants.

 

[misjuevos]

Spoiler

that toole guy has bad luck. 2 finales, 2 shots to the head