The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Andrew Garfield IS Spider-Man!

[Spiderdevil]

Don't forget that when an actress is cast, she is almost always judged based solely on her appearance (As opposed to Bale and RDJ who are heaped with accolades on their fine acting) or fidelity to the comic book drawing. And lets be honest, while the male actors are critiqued for their appearance, it's nowhere near the degree to which the actresses are.

Has everyone already forgotten that Shailene Woodlely was bashed mercilessly by fanboys across the internet for "not being hot enough". Ugh. I never once heard a critique of her actual acting skills.

The complaint never bothered and imo it was legit

Because MJ is supposed to be freckin hot,she is supposed to be someone who makes your eyes pop out and your jaw drop when you first see her.Thats an essential part of the character.

If the cast for MJ wasn't that drop dead gorgeous but really talented like say Jennifer Lawrence people would be happy but lets face it Woodley was neither that hot nor talented(or rather nothing much to show for her talent)

For Bruce Wayne,looks isn't his characteristic feature,neither Peter Parker's.They look different in different comics,cartoons and games.
But MJ being hot is her characteristic

For Bruce Wayne its someone who looks polished enough to look like a billionaire and grim enough to portray Batman,for Peter Parker it needs to be someone who can look and act like an outcast/nerd/socially awkward

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

The complaint never bothered and imo it was legit

Because MJ is supposed to be freckin hot,she is supposed to be someone who makes your eyes pop out and your jaw drop when you first see her.Thats an essential part of the character.

If the cast for MJ wasn't that drop dead gorgeous but really talented like say Jennifer Lawrence people would be happy but lets face it Woodley was neither that hot nor talented(or rather nothing much to show for her talent)

For Bruce Wayne,looks isn't his characteristic feature,neither Peter Parker's.They look different in different comics,cartoons and games.
But MJ being hot is her characteristic

For Bruce Wayne its someone who looks polished enough to look like a billionaire and grim enough to portray Batman,for Peter Parker it needs to be someone who can look and act like an outcast/nerd/socially awkward

As opposed to Clark Kent who should indeed be attractive. Perfect muscles, chiseled features and not a single imperfection (no blemishes, no receding hairline, etc). Impossibly attractive. And Thor to a different extent (more rugged, less traditionally handsome). Another good example? Johnny Storm. All three of these characters are supposed to be hot by modern women's standards. Much like MJ, Selina Kyle, Poison Ivy and Black Widow, it is a part of their character.

But unlike Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, Bruce Wayne, Gwen Stacy, Lois Lane, Betty Ross and Jane Foster. Sure most primary comic book characters are attractive, just like in the movies. But I'd argue that these particular characters could be played by less traditionally attractive men and women. These particular characters don't need square chins, jaw dropping bust sizes, hourglass curves or perfectly crafted noses. In Hollywood? They probably will. But they don't have to.

 

[sl500jazz]

This argument is going to go nowhere quickly.

Some people (like myself) think that MJ's brand of sex appeal is essential to the character's personality like Ivy, Frost, and Kyle, others think that it diminishes and simplifies the character. Some people think that Woodley looks the part, others don't. Some people would prefer Webb to do 616 MJ, some would prefer Ultimate (in that case looks really don't matter) or a creation of his own. etc.

I'm part of the group that prefers 616 based on Webb's portrayal of Gwen and Raimi's portrayal of MJ. A predominantly 616 MJ personality-wise brings something different to the table, but that's besides the point.

Initially, my only gripe with the Woodley casting was that (drop-dead gorgeous looks aside) at the very least whoever gets the role should come across as being more mature, more worldly, and sexier when compared to the very intelligent, sweet, and almost innocent Gwen. MJ is after all the Lois to Gwen's Lana. From what little I've seen of Woodley's talent (and she does have talent), she's very American teenage sweetheart and girl next door. She comes across as being younger, fresher, and more demure than Stone (who's already known by general audiences -particularly teenage males- for being very sexy in a lot of the roles that she's played), which shouldn't be. If Gwen was depicted the ultimate way, then that casting (and an ultimate MJ route) would have made more sense. With Emma as girl next door 616 TSSM Gwen, I believe that Webb and co. upped the ante for the type of actress that should be cast as MJ. I'm not even against her for the role though, and I'm sure that she'll do fine if she ends up keeping it.

But...why am I even discussing this? This is Andrew's thread.

 

[Loki882]

Considering how we have no idea how MJ will be portrayed, that's complaint is premature. Also, MJ's looks are not always important in the comics, she runs a nightclub at the moment.

 

[Vid Electricz]

The complaint never bothered and imo it was legit

Because MJ is supposed to be freckin hot,she is supposed to be someone who makes your eyes pop out and your jaw drop when you first see her.Thats an essential part of the character.

No, she's not and no, it's absolutely not. She is drawn as an idealistic male fantasy (just like every other female character in comic books). Her being "hot" and making your "eyes pop out" or whatever brings absolutely nothing to the character or story aside from, as some have suggested, the trite and tired, teen fantasy of the "hot girl" hooking up with the "nerd".

If the cast for MJ wasn't that drop dead gorgeous but really talented like say Jennifer Lawrence people would be happy but lets face it Woodley was neither that hot nor talented(or rather nothing much to show for her talent)

I'm really baffled as to what you're attempting to communicate here.

For Bruce Wayne,looks isn't his characteristic feature,neither Peter Parker's.They look different in different comics,cartoons and games.
But MJ being hot is her characteristic

Again, no it's absolutely not. MJ being "hot" is adolescent male fanservice. Nothing more. MJ being feisty, vivacious and indomitable are her primary characteristics.

As opposed to Clark Kent who should indeed be attractive. Perfect muscles, chiseled features and not a single imperfection (no blemishes, no receding hairline, etc). Impossibly attractive. And Thor to a different extent (more rugged, less traditionally handsome). Another good example? Johnny Storm. All three of these characters are supposed to be hot by modern women's standards. Much like MJ, Selina Kyle, Poison Ivy and Black Widow, it is a part of their character.

1. No it's absolutely not. Them being hot contributes absolutely nothing to their character or the story.

Of course you remember when Anne Hathaway was cast as Selina Kyle and the fanboys raged across the internet about how she wasn't "hot enough" for the part (seeing any patterns?). Or as Loki mentioned, ragging on Scarlett Johansen for being "fat" (wtf)?

This argument is going to go nowhere quickly.

Some people (like myself) think that MJ's brand of sex appeal is essential to the character's personality like Ivy, Frost, and Kyle, others think that it diminishes and simplifies the character. Some people think that Woodley looks the part, others don't. Some people would prefer Webb to do 616 MJ, some would prefer Ultimate (in that case looks really don't matter) or a creation of his own. etc.

I'm part of the group that prefers 616 based on Webb's portrayal of Gwen and Raimi's portrayal of MJ. A predominantly 616 MJ personality-wise brings something different to the table, but that's besides the point.

Initially, my only gripe with the Woodley casting was that (drop-dead gorgeous looks aside) at the very least whoever gets the role should come across as being more mature, more worldly, and sexier when compared to the very intelligent, sweet, and almost innocent Gwen. MJ is after all the Lois to Gwen's Lana. From what little I've seen of Woodley's talent (and she does have talent), she's very American teenage sweetheart and girl next door. She comes across as being younger, fresher, and more demure than Stone (who's already known by general audiences -particularly teenage males- for being very sexy in a lot of the roles that she's played), which shouldn't be. If Gwen was depicted the ultimate way, then that casting (and an ultimate MJ route) would have made more sense. With Emma as girl next door 616 TSSM Gwen, I believe that Webb and co. upped the ante for the type of actress that should be cast as MJ. I'm not even against her for the role though, and I'm sure that she'll do fine if she ends up keeping it.

But...why am I even discussing this? This is Andrew's thread.

You're certainly welcome to your opinion of the character, but I have to ask, why "sexier"? What does this ultimately contribute to the character or story aside from some trite fanservice? How is it essential to the character's personality? Haven't we been inundated with enough of this kind of stuff in the media?

 

[sl500jazz]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion of the character, but I have to ask, why "sexier"? What does this ultimately contribute to the character or story aside from some trite fanservice? How is it essential to the character's personality? Haven't we been inundated with enough of this kind of stuff in the media?

Okay. This is going to be a very long post so bear with me.

I’ve always gotten the impression that the sexiness has a lot to do with 616 Mary Jane’s own insecurities in a fashion similar to Norma Jeane Mortenson. In a very Freudian way, I think that Mary Jane’s need to attract and be attractive is her way of compensating for all that she lacked as the child of an abusive alcoholic father and a severely ill mother. Her childhood affected the way that she behaved in her late teens/early adulthood. She wanted people to love her because her father didn’t and her mother couldn’t. It’s a shallow world that we live in and sexiness/sexual attraction plays into that. She was the life of the party, guys wanted to date her and girls wanted to be her, but she prevented people from getting too close. She didn't want them to see all of the pain that she’d been through –hence her inability to commit to serious relationships. But don’t take my word for it, here are the panels from the actual comic:

MJ’s introduction to the gang. Notice how they respond to her and how she responds to them. Also notice the dynamic between her and Gwen. All eyes are off the very studious and pretty Gwen. The guys seem to be very attracted to MJ, and she loves the attention that she is getting. She seems to enjoy flirting with and teasing the boys. That sexiness is all part of her act.

Here are some panels showing Mary Jane’s resistance to commitment. Notice how she distances herself when things start to get too “heavy” or personal for her. I believe that she’s afraid that if she lets her guard down, people will see the “real” MJ. She won’t allow herself to become vulnerable out of fear of being hurt again.

Once again, whether or not anyone dislikes that aspect of the character is just a matter of personal opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I happen to think it’s great, and it’s something that we have yet to see be fully developed in any incarnation other than the classic 616 comics. TSSM was on the right track with the character, and it’s a shame that it got cancelled.

 

[sl500jazz]

Beyond that, in both universes Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy’s characters have been portrayed as foils of each other. They are complete opposites: the party girl and the book worm, the seductress and the ingénue; when one’s wholesome, the other is more promiscuous or flirtatious (and dare I say: sexy), etc. Taken side by side, they emphasize each other’s strengths and weaknesses. Webb has already pushed Gwen Stacy towards the more youthful, wholesome, and studious 616 girl next door version of the character. I believe that his Mary Jane should be much more ‘woman’ than ‘girl’ and carry herself with that classic 616 womanly confidence and flirtatiousness (even if it is just a façade) to be the complete antithesis of his Gwen, while still being just as (if not more) likable. The best example that I can think of is what Erica Durance’s Lois was to Kristin Kreuk’s Lana in Smallville. I would imagine that the writers of Smallville may have been inspired by the Spider-Man comics, adding certain elements of MJ to Lois and Gwen to Lana (particularly the tragic ending of her and Clark’s relationship). As I posted in the MJ thread, there’s even some great symbolism in that type of dynamic:

Gwen is a girl. She's representative of Peter's innocence, youthfulness, and naivete. She and Peter are almost like Romeo and Juliet. They are star-crossed lovers whose immature teenage love affair is tragically cut short before it can blossom into a mature adult relationship. Webb perfectly captured that naivete in Peter breaking the promise that he made Captain Stacy.

But Mary Jane is a WOMAN. Regardless of her age, there's a maturity, a confidence, a sexiness, and a worldliness in the way that she carries herself. She's gone through a lot of crap in her life (had to grow up quickly) and it's affected who she's become, whereas Gwen was sheltered and protected by loving parents. Gwen's death and Peter's transition to MJ is representative of his loss of innocence, and their mature adult relationship is one that can handle the weight and responsibility that comes with being Spider-Man. (Once again, OMD never happened in my eyes).

That’s why I was taken aback by the Woodley casting. This is the girl that is supposed to portray the more mature and ‘womanly’ Mary Jane when compared to Emma Stone’s girl next door Gwen, and in my opinion she comes across as being more youthful, modest, and girl next door (Spectacular Now, the Descendants, the Secret Life) than Stone does. On top of that, Woodley’s foil, Emma Stone, already has this perception of being an actress with a lot of sex appeal ( movies like Gangster Squad, Crazy Stupid Love, Easy A), even though she’s playing a character that is anything but overtly sexy. It seems a bit backwards to me. Then again, none of us know what Webb was/is planning on doing with the character. All in all, it’s a small gripe of a talented and pretty young actress and maybe a bit premature. As I’ve said, I’m not against her for the role. I care more about the depiction of the character than the actress that portrays her.

Does MJ have to be a 10/10 knockout just for the sake of some trite fanservice? Absolutely not. I’d like to think that most people would be pissed if Webb dropped Woodley in favor of Megan Fox (as I’ve seen some people suggest, which is beyond ridiculous) or Rosie Huntington-Whiteley.

But should the character’s sex appeal be tossed aside just because the media is inundated by sex and the objectification of women? Well, if you are going to do that with MJ, you might as well do it to characters like Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Emma Frost, etc.

Is “sexiness” the end all be all of MJ’s character? No, there are many other characteristics (like being feisty, vivacious, and indomitable) that also define her personality, but I believe that the MJ’s type of flirtatiousness and sexiness adds to her character, and would fit perfectly into the world that Webb has already established for himself (based on his portrayal of Gwen), and I do not believe that making MJ sexy diminishes or simplifies the character at all. It only diminishes the character if that is her ONLY trait, and she is depicted as being nothing more than just a hot girl.

If I’m not mistaken, Stan Lee has stated in many interviews that MJ was one of his favorite female characters to write. I just hope that he gets to see his vision of the character (especially the famous jackpot scene) hit the big screen before he passes.

Ann-Margret. MJ’s inspiration. The real Mary Jane Watson.

 

[Spiderdevil]

No, she's not and no, it's absolutely not. She is drawn as an idealistic male fantasy (just like every other female character in comic books). Her being "hot" and making your "eyes pop out" or whatever brings absolutely nothing to the character or story aside from, as some have suggested, the trite and tired, teen fantasy of the "hot girl" hooking up with the "nerd".

Yes she is.In Stan Lee own words

MJ was started out as a drop dead gorgeous character who sort of diverted Peter's attention from Gwen,after they killed off Gwen off they added more dimensions to MJ

MJ is supposed to be really attractive,she's a model for Christ's sake

I'm really baffled as to what you're attempting to communicate here.

Woodley was neither really attractive not talented(and I am talking real talent,not something like 'Oh she was good in a couple of small budget indie movies' talent)

What did she do to deserve the role of MJ? We are talking about one of the most iconic females in CB history

The casting choices for MJ need to be either really attractive or really talented if not both.And Woodley was neither

Again, no it's absolutely not. MJ being "hot" is adolescent male fanservice. Nothing more. MJ being feisty, vivacious and indomitable are her primary characteristics.

How wrong you are
Peter's reaction when he first sees her and her first words to him says it all

I am not being sexist,I really wouldn't care so much about looks if we were casting Gwen Stacy or Betty Brant.But this is MJ we are talking about

 

[JOE]

This post. ^

 

[mayo23]

^Not that post.

Btw, what exactly is your definition of real talent Spiderdevil?

 

[Loki882]

Spiderdevil, no actor deserve any role. The fact is that Woodley has been praised for her acting in the past. You can dismiss those films as "small indie" movies all you want, but that criticism has no merit whatsoever. "Real talent," wow that's a funny statement. Also, you arguing that Woodley isn't attractive makes you look bad, she is. MJ DOES NO need to look like a bombshell. Ultimate MJ didn't, Spectacular SM MJ didn't. This is a movie, its going to be a different take.

 

[Spideyfan117]

What makes MJ's character so attractive isn't the way she's drawn. It's the way she's written. She is a spunky, feisty, somewhat self-absorbed character whose most apparent traits are really just a facade to mask her inner turmoil. Shailene can deliver that personality. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that an "average" looking girl all of a sudden becomes a bombshell in my eyes if she has the right personality.

 

[JOE]

Why do you guys think Woodley was cut from the cast? For fun? Because Marc is a terrible guy? There's some truth to what Spiderdevil is saying.

 

[sl500jazz]

I feel the need to distance myself from Spiderdevil's comments.

The casting choice has to be really attractive or really talented?!! No, no, no. Talent/Chemistry with the other actors comes first. Looks come second. If they can find both, then they really "hit the jackpot". I would hate it if they cast some talentless hack in the role just because she's a supermodel and looks exactly like MJ. And please, let's not diminish Woodley's looks or talent. She's clearly both attractive and talented. Whether or not you think those are up to the perceived "MJ standards" is a personal opinion, but the way that you phrased things is just blatantly insulting to the actress. No wonder there is so much hostility regarding this role. Please people, "the internet is not written in pencil, it's written in ink".

@ Loki882 ...but MJ in Spectacular Spider-Man was a bombshell and a flirt. Albeit a kids cartoon teenage version of the 616 bombshell.

but you're right about Ultimate. Sexual attraction has nothing to do with that version. I would just hate it if that was what Webb was going for though, considering that she'd be Gwen Stacy 2.0.

@Joe
As far as We know, Woodley's scenes were only cut from this movie so that they could focus on Pete and Gwen's relationship, which I think is crazy because MJ should be apart of their lives way before Gwen dies. And if they felt that MJ was interfering with Peter and Gwen, it's something that they should have realized during pre-production.

But no one has stated that Woodley has been permanently cut from the franchise. It appears that she could still come back, but at this point it is a bit uncertain because the next film is still at least another year away from pre-production, and I believe that she's no longer locked into the role.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Yes she is.In Stan Lee own words

MJ was started out as a drop dead gorgeous character who sort of diverted Peter's attention from Gwen,after they killed off Gwen off they added more dimensions to MJ

MJ is supposed to be really attractive,she's a model for Christ's sake

And Stan Lee intended Max Dillon to be a two bit crook who wore a green and yellow outfit with a star mask. Stan Lee intended Aunt May to be a decrepit, oblivious, doting octegenarian. I'm so glad that these characters were translated exactly from comic to screen. Oh wait. They were updated and revised to reflect more realistic, layered, believable representations of these characters. The same will be done with MJ in future films, if her treatment in what we saw of TASM2 is any indication.

You said:

Because MJ is supposed to be freckin hot,she is supposed to be someone who makes your eyes pop out and your jaw drop when you first see her.Thats an essential part of the character.

MJ being hot is her characteristic


My question as to how this aids the character or story in any way still hasn't been legitimately answered. What you suggest reduces the character to a mere sex object used as a "distraction" for Peter.

Again, I suggest you read "Spider-Man loves Mary Jane". It's a great series that presents the character in a layered, multi-dimensional way that draws instead on her character (likes, dislikes, wants, goals, desires, attitude, etc...) and doesn't rely on her being reduced to a "hot", "sexy" sex object in the way that you suggest.

Woodley was neither really attractive not talented(and I am talking real talent,not something like 'Oh she was good in a couple of small budget indie movies' talent)

???

I'm not even going to bother with the first part. Seriously?

Why was Garfield hired? What did he have under his belt other than "a couple small indie movies"? The Social Network? Yeah, and Shailene's got the Spectacular Now. This argument is beyond ridiculous.

What did she do to deserve the role of MJ? We are talking about one of the most iconic females in CB history

Again, seriously? I am sure she displayed some great acting talent and chemistry with Garfield to deserve the role.

The casting choices for MJ need to be either really attractive or really talented if not both.And Woodley was neither

How wrong you are
Peter's reaction when he first sees her and her first words to him says it all

I am not being sexist,I really wouldn't care so much about looks if we were casting Gwen Stacy or Betty Brant.But this is MJ we are talking about

Yeah, you actually are. Whether you understand that you are or not (obviously not).

FYI. John Romita has gone on record saying the only difference between MJ and Gwen (and most women in comic books) were their hair colors.

 

[JOE]

She said her "tiger" line and got cut. Maybe Marc wasn't feeling it and let her down easy? Regardless, we can't judge a scene we haven't nor will ever see. So it's irrelevant. She's out now as far as anyone is concerned. Didn't make the cut, why she didn't is irrelevant at this point. We can't be surprised if they recast, and can't be surprised if she comes back.

That's all there really is to it.

 

[sl500jazz]

While I disagree with Spiderdevil’s sentiments, I’m not quite sure what you are trying to argue Vid.

Do you think that 616 MJ is a character whose sex appeal has nothing to do with her personality, or do you dislike that version of the character because she has always been depicted as being “sexy” or “hot”?

Are you trying to argue that sex appeal has nothing to do with Mary Jane’s personality because of her portrayal in “Spider-Man loves Mary Jane”? If so, that would be like comparing apples and oranges. That is a completely different version of the character from a self-contained universe.

Or are you trying to argue that that version of the character is superior because sex appeal has nothing to do with her portrayal? If so, that’s fine. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

What I also don’t understand is : Why does being “sexy” (even objectified by her supporting cast) reduce or trivialize the character? Why can’t MJ be “sexy” and “hot” as she was originally depicted (with or without Woodley in the role) and still be a layered, multi-dimensional character with likes, dislikes, wants, goals, desires, attitude, etc...
[FONT=&quot]
Is being “sexy or hot” and “having substance” two mutually exclusive things? I think that that’s a big misconception, and it’s a misconception that specifically plays a role in 616 MJ’s character development. Very reminiscent of real life examples like Marilyn Monroe , who was constantly typecast as a sexy bimbo blonde despite only looking that way. I hate to sound trite, but you really can’t judge a book by its cover.[/FONT]

 

[Picard Sisko]

She said her "tiger" line and got cut. Maybe Marc wasn't feeling it and let her down easy? Regardless, we can't judge a scene we haven't nor will ever see. So it's irrelevant. She's out now as far as anyone is concerned. Didn't make the cut, why she didn't is irrelevant at this point. We can't be surprised if they recast, and can't be surprised if she comes back.

That's all there really is to it.

I agree. I don't think she was cut due to all the fan backlash and negative comments on the internet. We don't know what the scene was like, and at this point I don't think it is canon.

 

[GuestStar2004]

She said her "tiger" line and got cut. Maybe Marc wasn't feeling it and let her down easy? Regardless, we can't judge a scene we haven't nor will ever see. So it's irrelevant. She's out now as far as anyone is concerned. Didn't make the cut, why she didn't is irrelevant at this point. We can't be surprised if they recast, and can't be surprised if she comes back.

That's all there really is to it.

did you just make this scenario up in your head?

 

[GuestStar2004]

MJ was probably cut because of why webb said she was... BECAUSE HE WANTED TO CONCENTRATE ON PETER AND GWENS RELATIONSHIP

really MJ didn't need to be in the story from the looks of it, her role was small and if anything could be considered a seed planted for later, BUT... last thing you wanna do in introduce another comic love interest of peters into a film when you are already concentrating and trying to make us care about his current love interest and relationship

does that mean she will be recast? who knows, but she was cast for a reason by webb and i doubt it was down too her not saying something right, HE IS A DIRECTOR FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

 

[Picard Sisko]

did you just make this scenario up in your head?

Marc said that MJ was supposed to say, "Face it tiger, you just hit the jackpot."

 

[GuestStar2004]

Marc said that MJ was supposed to say, "Face it tiger, you just hit the jackpot."

yeah i remember she also said she said the line, but the part where she didn't say it right and was cut, and for whatever reason is being recast... just what? i could have sworn we knew nothing at all about the situation, how silly

 

[Picard Sisko]

yeah i remember she also said she said the line, but the part where she didn't say it right and was cut, and for whatever reason is being recast... just what? i could have sworn we knew nothing at all about the situation, how silly

Its not silly, its just a speculation.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Its not silly, its just a speculation.

Ok its silly speculation

I can't help but think alot of people want to think she was cut because she didn't suit the part in any way at all

oh she didn't look like MJ thats why webb cut her!!... oh and she didn't say the tiger line right that too!!

infact i'm not sure why its even in discussion surely we should accept what webb says are the reasons rather then assume he is lying because some people want to think he is so she can be recast

 

[Nicko-Ray]

Whatever direction they're going to take MJ, it's gonna be different than Raimi's and, from Gwen. It has to be. Most things that have been reborn in this series has been a bit different. Peter, Aunt May/their relationship, Ben's death, the spider bite, Flash dynamic....

I hope they do go with sassy MJ this time. I'd love to see that.