The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Andrew Garfield IS Spider-Man!

[Vid Electricz]

We spent two movies of Peter Parker trying to get the girl, and when they are finally together, their relationship sucks.

Peter is with Gwen in TASM and TASM2 (possibly a few bumps in the road due to the promise, but nothing major). The relationship is already off to a good start, and I think its the best element of the series so far.

Not to be that guy, but have you read any of the comics through the 90's and early 2000's? It seems like all Peter and MJ do is argue/bicker/have relationship issues.

Things get very boring, very quickly when everything is perfect and easy for the characters.

That said, Raimi maybe pushed it a little too far. But for all SM3's faults, it was a pretty well done/realistic depiction of a relationship after the "honeymoon" period.

 

[Loki882]

No, it was a toxic relationship that I didn't believe, care about, and was just uncomfortable watching. Both Peter and MJ were apparently allergic to communication or common sense. MJ is a jealous, selfish ***** who expects Peter to instantly realize that something was wrong even though she won't TELL HIM about losing her job. She's also jealous of Spiderman's popularity and treats Peter like crap for it. Peter is too stupid to realize that some of his actions might not go over well with her. The relationship was god awful and negated all of the character development from SM 2.

 

[Vid Electricz]

No, it was a toxic relationship that I didn't believe, care about, and was just uncomfortable watching. Both Peter and MJ were apparently allergic to communication or common sense. MJ is a jealous, selfish ***** who expects Peter to instantly realize that something was wrong even though she won't TELL HIM about losing her job. She's also jealous of Spiderman's popularity and treats Peter like crap for it. Peter is too stupid to realize that some of his actions might not go over well with her. The relationship was god awful and negated all of the character development from SM 2.

Hence, why it was pushed too far and executed poorly.

But there were some genuinely good ideas/intentions in there.

It's about as believable to me as Gwen invinting Peter to her house for dinner on their third occassion actually speaking to each other and then Peter kissing Gwen and revealing his identity.

 

[fuflipflops]

No, it was a toxic relationship that I didn't believe, care about, and was just uncomfortable watching. Both Peter and MJ were apparently allergic to communication or common sense. MJ is a jealous, selfish ***** who expects Peter to instantly realize that something was wrong even though she won't TELL HIM about losing her job. She's also jealous of Spiderman's popularity and treats Peter like crap for it. Peter is too stupid to realize that some of his actions might not go over well with her. The relationship was god awful and negated all of the character development from SM 2.

uhm, mj was not a "jealous *****", how would you feel if your girlfriend kissed another guy in public, even if it was just for show, and without so much as telling you about it? and then the guy she kissed interrupts you at dinner and gets all touchy feely with her and only then does your girlfriend tell you she hangs out with the guy all the time at school? she was completely justified in feeling the way she did.

and she was embarrassed about losing her job, it was humiliating. and especially after the way peter acted when she got that first bad review, brushing it off and running out within five minutes of the conversation and making it about him ("oh yeah, you know, ME as spider-man, and when I'M spider-man, etc) i don't blame her in not telling peter what happened, he wouldn't have listened anyway.

i really don't see all the flaws everyone does as far as mj's character and her and peter's relationship goes. her story was independent from peter, she was allowed to have her own goals and careers and tastes that went beyond just whatever peter liked for the sake of her being the perfect girl for peter (like webb is doing with gwen), she was realistically flawed, their relationship had rough patches, like all relationships do... it may not have been perfectly written, but it was better than a whole lot of on screen superhero couples. and if there was anything that ruined that was all that "emo peter" stupidity. on mj's side her actions and feelings were totally believable.

 

[Vid Electricz]

uhm, mj was not a "jealous *****", how would you feel if your girlfriend kissed another guy in public, even if it was just for show, and without so much as telling you about it? and then the guy she kissed interrupts you at dinner and gets all touchy feely with her and only then does your girlfriend tell you she hangs out with the guy all the time at school? she was completely justified in feeling the way she did.

and she was embarrassed about losing her job, it was humiliating. and especially after the way peter acted when she got that first bad review, brushing it off and running out within five minutes of the conversation and making it about him ("oh yeah, you know, ME as spider-man, and when I'M spider-man, etc) i don't blame her in not telling peter what happened, he wouldn't have listened anyway.

i really don't see all the flaws everyone does as far as mj's character and her and peter's relationship goes. her story was independent from peter, she was allowed to have her own goals and careers and tastes that went beyond just whatever peter liked for the sake of her being the perfect girl for peter (like webb is doing with gwen), she was realistically flawed, their relationship had rough patches, like all relationships do... it may not have been perfectly written, but it was better than a whole lot of on screen superhero couples. and if there was anything that ruined that was all that "emo peter" stupidity. on mj's side her actions and feelings were totally believable.

Very, very well said! There were some moments where I felt that Raimi was really pushing and forcing the drama in way that didn't feel completely natural, but I have to applaud his intentions nonetheless. It was a bold decision to tackle such mature, adult themes (especially in a comic book movie) concerning Peter and Mary Jane's relationship.

I particularly like the bolded excerpt above. Every complaint you ever hear about Mary Jane in SM3 is "she's a *****", "she's unlikeable" as though she's meant to exist solely as arm candy to the male hero. It seems a lot of fanboys were displeased that the character had agency/wants/goals/desires beyond the male hero. Again, very well said.

I just read a pretty great article on the myth of the "Strong Female Character" in contemporary media that I'd be happy to share if you're interested.

 

[sl500jazz]

I'm sorry, but I agree with everyone else. Raimi's portrayal of MJ and her relationship with Peter was probably one of the weakest parts of the entire trilogy. Sure, he and the writers may have had some good ideas to portray a realistic couple, but they were very poorly executed. By the end of the trilogy, they had completely turned a vivacious, confident, independent, and sharp-witted character into a bitter, humorless, whiny, and jealous constant damsel in distress (c'mon did she have to be captured by the main villain and saved by Spider-Man in all 3 films). Yes she was pursuing her own goals (which was nice to see), but there weren't any redeeming qualities to her personality- if she even had a personality. To this day, I can't understand why Peter liked her so much, and I never even felt the chemistry between them or at least the same amount of chemistry that Garfield and Stone have. On top of that, I never really got the impression that Dunst cared about the character that she was playing as much as some of the other actors did. Her heart wasn't in it, and that was especially evident in her performance in the third film. But who could blame her. She basically spent three movies whining about Peter and screaming at the top of her lungs. Still, SM1 and SM2 were fantastic movies.

 

[fuflipflops]

I just read a pretty great article on the myth of the "Strong Female Character" in contemporary media that I'd be happy to share if you're interested.

is it the one written by sophia mcdougall? if so, i read it, and loved it. it applies to what we're talking about here, peter is a good guy by default in these movies, even if he acts like a *****ebag sometimes, but people take the tiniest thing mj did that might have been annoying and she's called a b* for a decade.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

I agree on the one hand it was cool to see a realistic portrayal of a relationship and the strains that could be put on a superhero couple. On the other, it was badly executed and seemed almost painful to watch. It seemed as though the two almost hated each other at times, Dunst seeming as though she hated Maguire's guts in the scenes. About 60% of their scenes together was her crying, shouting at him or just generally acting malicious and bitter towards him. They seemed to make each other deeply unhappy. I don't know if it was entirely the script (obviously had a big part to it) or if Kirsten had just given up on the material. I know that from interviews she seemed to have looked down on the Spider-Man thing and comic books in general. Just thinking the whole thing is silly. She was clearly growing tired of it in SM2 but by SM3, you could see she would rather be anywhere else in the world than doing that movie. And while Tobey had sorta given up on the character, at least he had an once of enthusiasm left for the movie, since it was obviously a successful and well liked franchise.

I always think it's good when you get someone who doesn't hate the content, or even better really likes the material, it isn't a must, but it always helps with actor enthusiasm.

 

[sl500jazz]

I agree with WarriorDreamer. I understand the importance of realism and I highly doubt that anyone dislikes Raimi's version of the character or thinks that she was "unlikable" because she had her own goals. 616 MJ has always had her own goals and aspirations separate from her relationship with Peter. She's a fiercely independent character, and that's one of the things that makes her so great and so different from many other comic book love interests.

That being said, the "realism" of their relationship and of MJs character was handled very sloppily in the Raimi trilogy. In SM1 we really didn't get to know MJ (aside from being a struggling actress) like we got to know Peter. She was essentially just the archetypal "love interest" and damsel in distress. A girl that Peter had been in love with (for some inexplicable reason) from day one,the girl that he wanted to desperately win over, and the girl that he had to constantly save (I believe three times in that one movie). Once, we finally got to see the character and the relationship develop more in SM2 and SM3 she behaves very selfishly and bitterly. It's difficult for anyone to see what Peter sees in her because Raimi took away all of the positive attributes of the comic book character's personality : her charisma, her confidence, her effervescence, her charm, her feistiness, her sense of humor, etc; and imo her and Peter didn't really seem to connect on any level.

If that "realism" had been handled properly and MJ's character and personality fully developed, then more people would have/should have understood, forgiven, or even accepted her behavior (like they do with Peter, even though he can be a cold d-bag sometimes) instead of labeling her a selfish or jealous b*. Unfortunately (even if her actions may have been realistic or justified), that's really the only side of the character's personality that Raimi ever showed us.

And once again, Kirsten seemed to lack the right "energy" and "enthusiasm" for the role.

BTW, has anyone ever seen these pics of Kirsten from the SM1 screen test.

She looks absolutely stunning and just like the comic book character! They should have kept that look for all three films.

She's a naturally pretty woman, but it's amazing how makeup/styling can almost completely change a person.

 

[amazingly atiba]

tobey tobey tobey ahahahaha man he was great

 

[JOE]

They made her look dull in the next 2.

 

[blake c]

I agree with WarriorDreamer. I understand the importance of realism and I highly doubt that anyone dislikes Raimi's version of the character or thinks that she was "unlikable" because she had her own goals. 616 MJ has always had her own goals and aspirations separate from her relationship with Peter. She's a fiercely independent character, and that's one of the things that makes her so great and so different from many other comic book love interests.

That being said, the "realism" of their relationship and of MJs character was handled very sloppily in the Raimi trilogy. In SM1 we really didn't get to know MJ (aside from being a struggling actress) like we got to know Peter. She was essentially just the archetypal "love interest" and damsel in distress. A girl that Peter had been in love with (for some inexplicable reason) from day one,the girl that he wanted to desperately win over, and the girl that he had to constantly save (I believe three times in that one movie). Once, we finally got to see the character and the relationship develop more in SM2 and SM3 she behaves very selfishly and bitterly. It's difficult for anyone to see what Peter sees in her because Raimi took away all of the positive attributes of the comic book character's personality : her charisma, her confidence, her effervescence, her charm, her feistiness, her sense of humor, etc; and imo her and Peter didn't really seem to connect on any level.

If that "realism" had been handled properly and MJ's character and personality fully developed, then more people would have/should have understood, forgiven, or even accepted her behavior (like they do with Peter, even though he can be a cold d-bag sometimes) instead of labeling her a selfish or jealous b*. Unfortunately (even if her actions may have been realistic or justified), that's really the only side of the character's personality that Raimi ever showed us.

And once again, Kirsten seemed to lack the right "energy" and "enthusiasm" for the role.

BTW, has anyone ever seen these pics of Kirsten from the SM1 screen test.

She looks absolutely stunning and just like the comic book character! They should have kept that look for all three films.

She's a naturally pretty woman, but it's amazing how makeup/styling can almost completely change a person.

I had always thought she looked almost perfect for the character, and thought she was gorgeous. The only complaint I had ever had was the way she was was portrayed in the film, but she had no say so in that so it wasn't even her fault.

 

[Loki882]

Not to mention how contrived the scenario in SM 3 was to begin with. We're supposed to buy that the critics hated her performance in that musical and that the show runners blamed her for its failure. I'm sorry, but her singing sounded really good to me (everyone I've talked to about the movie thinks the same thing). If her voice was hard to hear, the put a microphone on her. It's not believable. Also, getting bad reviews in a musical wouldn't ruin her chances in regular plays since you don't sing in regular plays. Also, MJ, if you want Peter to feel sorry for you, then maybe you should TELL him about losing your job. He's not psychic, you shouldn't expect him to instantly figure this out, its called communication.

 

[Vid Electricz]

is it the one written by sophia mcdougall? if so, i read it, and loved it. it applies to what we're talking about here, peter is a good guy by default in these movies, even if he acts like a *****ebag sometimes, but people take the tiniest thing mj did that might have been annoying and she's called a b* for a decade.

Yes! That's the one.

It's the classic fanboy double standard. Women are meant to be supportive of the male hero, "pleasant" and aesthetically pleasing (or "strong" if they're lucky. lol), while the male hero gets to make tough choices, be shy, be tough, be a genius, be cocky, be a trickster, etc...(in other words, multivalent).

 

[JOE]

I'm 100% on board with it not being fair, however, it is what it is...

That's why the movie is called Spider-Man, not Mary Jane.

 

[Green Goblin]

Hence, why it was pushed too far and executed poorly.

But there were some genuinely good ideas/intentions in there.

It's about as believable to me as Gwen invinting Peter to her house for dinner on their third occassion actually speaking to each other and then Peter kissing Gwen and revealing his identity.

I have been invited to meet someone's parents after date No.3 before. Peter revealed his identity to MJ very early into Ultimate Spider-Man.

 

[Vid Electricz]

I have been invited to meet someone's parents after date No.3 before. Peter revealed his identity to MJ very early into Ultimate Spider-Man.

They had spoken three times. The third time of which, she invited him to her parents house for dinner...making that their first date(?).

Also, in the Ultimate series. Peter had know/been friends with Mary Jane for quite some time. They had even been "dating" for a whole story arc before he revealed his identity.

 

[Green Goblin]

They had spoken three times. The third time of which, she invited him to her parents house for dinner...making that their first date(?).

Also, in the Ultimate series. Peter had know/been friends with Mary Jane for quite some time. They had even been "dating" for a whole story arc before he revealed his identity.

Can your heat that? That is the sound of nitpicking.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Can your heat that? That is the sound of nitpicking.

I can only hear the sound of rushed, sloppy, incredibly unnatural storytelling.


As far as identity reveals go: Bendis got it right, TASM got it wrong.

 

[Green Goblin]

I can only hear the sound of rushed, sloppy, incredibly unnatural storytelling.


As far as identity reveals go: Bendis got it right, TASM got it wrong.

The reveal was similar to how it was in USM (shows intimacy and secrets). If you got upset because they didn't go for a date at the mall with Gwen's friends then that's your problem. If were complaing about rushed story telling then how about we complain about Peter Marrying MJ after 6 months or how MJ moved between several guys in ALL three films?

 

[JOE]

Kirsten was a hoochie.

 

[fuflipflops]

Not to mention how contrived the scenario in SM 3 was to begin with. We're supposed to buy that the critics hated her performance in that musical and that the show runners blamed her for its failure. I'm sorry, but her singing sounded really good to me (everyone I've talked to about the movie thinks the same thing). If her voice was hard to hear, the put a microphone on her. It's not believable. Also, getting bad reviews in a musical wouldn't ruin her chances in regular plays since you don't sing in regular plays. Also, MJ, if you want Peter to feel sorry for you, then maybe you should TELL him about losing your job. He's not psychic, you shouldn't expect him to instantly figure this out, its called communication.

i mean, theater is not movies, there are bad actors who can still get tons o roles in movies, but on stage it's different. critics can very much ruin someone's career there. and a play depends on good criticism and attendance to keep going, it's not like movies that will keep playing for a while even with bad critics and stuff. and the whole voice thing isn't about a microphone necessarily, it's just that, like the movie showed later on, her voice was fine, but not great. she didn't have a strong enough voice for broadway, where everything is larger than life and the singing is loud as heck. mj was only good enough to sing in bars.

and, like i said, mj tried to tell peter about the bad review and he turned it around and made it about him and blew her off, so when she lost her job, she'd feel he'd do the same, that's why she didn't tell him. it was humiliating for her, especially the way she was fired, going to work and seeing that other girl on stage. maybe if peter hadn't been so self-centered in the movie, he would've picked up that she wasn't feeling great and they would've talked. when you're a couple, you know the person isn't well even if they're pretending they're ok.

and idk i like ginger mj better than cherry red-haired mj. that wig in the screen test is horrible, she looks like that woman from married... with children. heh.

If were complaing about rushed story telling then how about we complain about Peter Marrying MJ after 6 months or how MJ moved between several guys in ALL three films?

i will never, ever understand people getting angry at mj dating, saying it was "omgz so many guys1!!!" let's see: there was flash in high school, when she was 17. then harry when she was presumably 18. then john when she was 20. and then peter. 4 guys in 5 ish years doesn't seem like a lot. it's yet another excuse to shame her. i wanna see how many people will bash harry in tasm2, since dane (or marc, i don't remember exactly who) said he's a womanizer.

aaaaand it WAS rushed for gwen to invite peter to meet her parents and him reveal his identity in their third encounter. jeez, he knew flash better than he did gwen at that point. i get it that he was in love with her and stuff, but if he knew enough not to tell anyone else, even aunt may who's his freaking mother, then surely he'd think a bit more before babbling to someone he barely knew.

 

[Spideyfan117]

I remember my first girlfriend sophomore year in high school. The very first conversation I had with her when I met her was me stumbling over myself and getting red-faced. Next time I talked to her, she invited me to her house and I met her mom and brother. It was VERY uncomfortable because I barely knew her, but I was attracted to her and what I knew about her (very punk-rock girl) fascinated me so I was willing to do it. After dinner she and I sat on her porch in a swingset for hours before I had to leave. It was still a little awkward, but as I talked to her I got more comfortable and felt like I could tell her anything. A girl I had known for barely any time at all. I kissed her and asked her to be my girlfriend and that was that.

Why am I telling you guys this? Last year when I went to see TASM, Peter and Gwen's romance took me back to my first relationship. It's one of my favorite parts of the movie because it was so similar to something I went through. Maybe, that clouds my judgement of the romance a little. But it's one of the aspects of the movie critics praised the most. Teenage love is stupid, reckless, and nonsensical. Teens rush into romance all the time. Having gone through something so similar it doesn't seem rushed at all from a story-telling standpoint, only from a real world 'stupid kids rushing into love' standpoint.

 

[Loki882]

I was in HS only a few years ago, and I say plenty of relationships begin the way Peter/Gwen did. I actually found it to be an extremely realistic portrayal of a HS student's first romance. And I can actually see why Peter loves Gwen and vice versa, unlike the Raimi so-called romance.

 

[Loki882]

fuflipflops, Sorry, I respect your opinion, but I just don't buy that explanation. If that was the intention of the screenwriters, then the movie failed completely to show it. I can only go by what was put up onscreen. MJ's performance was really good, everyone that I've ever talked to agrees. The idea that the critics would hate it wasn't sold to me, it came off as unbelievably contrived. Also, musicals and regular plays are VERY different, so I still don't buy that getting bad reviews in a musical would prevent her from getting jobs in regular play, I simply don't. Also, I've watched enough Hugh Jackman plays to know that performers DO wear microphones at times.