At what point did you know DCEU was failing ?

[Milk Tray Guy]

As long as they have the same people in charge who pushed for BvS, and JL, I really doubt they'll be any real radical changes with regard to the DCEU.

They'll just keep tinkering around the edges, throw wild ideas at the wall ,and stumble through it, as opposed to truly flying right.

Right now , the people who screwed up are still in charge and haven't changed their minds all that much since they pushed for BvS in the wake of MOS.

At this point I'm skeptical that several disappoints post JL would even change their minds. It may truly take new leadership from the top.

I think you may be right. It's a lot easier for a new team to come in and say "Those guys were wrong" than it is for an existing team to say "We were wrong".

 

[Web-Head]

When they let Snyder direct BvS and after Suicide Squad came out.

 

[Boom]

1) When they hired Zack Snyder for Batman v Superman - first warning
2) When they hired Zack Snyder for Justice League - second warning, sirens going off
3) When they kept Zack Snyder on Justice League after BvS crashed and burned - the iceberg's been hit

 

[DOBSON10]

The moment they announced Jesse Eisenberg was going to play Lex Luthor I knew they were in trouble. Wiping out one of the best villains of their Universe with the worst casting choice in CBM history. He should have been a recurring villain that had a huge role in several movies, now I wished they had just killed the character off in BvS or not used him at all. Now they have a bad Joker, and a horrific Luthor, two characters that should have been pillars in the Universe. There are several other problems obviously, but these two villains are almost as important to the Universe as any of the heroes, and they are both huge disappointments.

 

[Micromind]

Any Zack Snyder fans here ?

 

[Web-Head]

The moment they announced Jesse Eisenberg was going to play Lex Luthor I knew they were in trouble. Wiping out one of the best villains of their Universe with the worst casting choice in CBM history. He should have been a recurring villain that had a huge role in several movies, now I wished they had just killed the character off in BvS or not used him at all. Now they have a bad Joker, and a horrific Luthor, two characters that should have been pillars in the Universe. There are several other problems obviously, but these two villains are almost as important to the Universe as any of the heroes, and they are both huge disappointments.

Really good points. I did think Eisenberg as Lex was an improvement in the post credits of JL, but that was just a cameo.

I know Cranston was such an obvious and uninspired choice but if they could've gotten him, they should've. I think Corey Stoll would make a fantastic Luthor as well.

 

[Frodo]

I actually think history may ironically look kindly on Zack Snyder if WB keeps screwing up their films post JL. At that point, it would become apparent the problem is more of the execs and the studio than it is the filmmakers.

After Spiderman 3, Raimi really took a beating from fanboys for a long time. Then the fiasco with the ASM films happened, and the Sony hack revealed their incompetence and meddling which ruined a successful franchise.

Now Raimi's been looked on much more favorably a decade after SM3, while Sony is considered largely to blame for the failings of Spiderman 3 through ASM 2.

I actually expect Snyder to make the convention circuit in years to come and will probably be greeted quite warmly, probably by a new generation of fanboys. He'll certainly have a heck of a story to tell.

 

[BestGirl]

Snyder hasn't directed many good movies throughout the entirety of his career, though. He certainly doesn't have any films as good as SM1 or SM2 to hang his hat on. I suspect he'll be greeted warmly by fans of MOS and BVS, but the larger DC fanbase will continue to dislike him, or, over time, simply become indifferent to him.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I actually think history may ironically look kindly on Zack Snyder if WB keeps screwing up their films post JL. At that point, it would become apparent the problem is more of the execs and the studio than it is the filmmakers.

After Spiderman 3, Raimi really took a beating from fanboys for a long time. Then the fiasco with the ASM films happened, and the Sony hack revealed their incompetence and meddling which ruined a successful franchise.

Now Raimi's been looked on much more favorably a decade after SM3, while Sony is considered largely to blame for the failings of Spiderman 3 through ASM 2.

I actually expect Snyder to make the convention circuit in years to come and will probably be greeted quite warmly, probably by a new generation of fanboys. He'll certainly have a heck of a story to tell.

The difference is, Raimi already made two popular and successful films before ****ing up on SM3.

Snyder did MOS (divisive and underperforming), BvS (an unmitigated disaster) and JL (a bomb that wasn’t all his but supposedly that was because the cut he made was unwatchable).

WB’s dumbest decision was sticking with him for as long as they did.

 

[Erzengel]

I won't deny that Snyder doesn't have his fans but the way some put it, it's inferred is like the fan base is divided 50/50 however, I don't see it being that close.

 

[Frodo]

Snyder hasn't directed many good movies throughout the entirety of his career, though. He certainly doesn't have any films as good as SM1 or SM2 to hang his hat on. I suspect he'll be greeted warmly by fans of MOS and BVS, but the larger DC fanbase will continue to dislike him, or, over time, simply become indifferent to him.

Well it depends. You can never underestimate the power time has in mellowing people out. It also depends on what the quality are of the films that follow post JL.

I highly doubt in 20 years that the anger or divisiveness around him will still remain even among those who hate him now, let alone younger generations who may not even be born yet.

People can have short memories and younger fans won't have the same passions over it because most of them won't have even been born yet during the construction of the DCEU.

 

[Frodo]

The difference is, Raimi already made two popular and successful films before ****ing up on SM3.

Yeah, but if you were around on boards like these post SM3 in 2007 all of his Spiderman films were bashed by a certain group of fans, and by others ,he received the sole blame for SM3.

Fans have forgotten how much flack he and Maguire got from fanboys for all three films post SM3 back in 2007 through 2012. It basically didn't turn until after ASM 2 when fanboys stopped bashing him and realized Sony was largely responsible for missteps in the franchise.

Then again, had the ASM films been excellent and well received among critics, fanboys and the GA he might still be bashed today.

 

[Erzengel]

Maybe if the the genre stopped making films after say Avengers but that bubble isn't about to burst just yet. So with cbm growing exponentially it seems, it's just hard for something in the genre that didn't take initially, to be "rediscovered" by a new generation.

 

[80s Bullock]

Snyder doing Batman (I knew what he said about the character)... It's not a good idea to base a universe on such edgy pillars. Nothing against making an edgy movie, but not as the foundation of a new universe.

 

[Frodo]

Maybe if the the genre stopped making films after say Avengers but that bubble isn't about to burst just yet. So with cbm growing exponentially it seems, it's just hard for something in the genre that didn't take initially, to be "rediscovered" by a new generation.

You say that now as someone experiencing it in real time, 2018, in the middle of it happening. You don't know what will happen for a generation of fans who haven't even been born yet and aren't invested in these particular DC films the way fanboys today are.

As someone who was a young adult when Batman and Robin came out, I've seen the genre go through alot in terms of public perception and how fandom and fanboys have changed in that time period.

Trust me, the next generation isn't gonna care about these films as much as the people on the board today do. To them these Snyder films will be ancient history. Not saying they'll be considered classics, but I don't think he's gonna be reviled as much as fanboys today think he will be.

 

[Erzengel]

You say that now as someone experiencing it in real time, 2018, in the middle of it happening. You don't know what will happen for a generation of fans who haven't even been born yet and aren't invested in these particular DC films the way fanboys today are.

As someone who was a young adult when Batman and Robin came out, I've seen the genre go through alot in terms of public perception and how fandom and fanboys have changed in that time period.

Trust me, the next generation isn't gonna care about these films as much as the people on the board today do. To them these Snyder films will be ancient history. Not saying they'll be considered classics, but I don't think he's gonna be reviled as much as fanboys today think he will be.

I won't deny that as fans who have grown up pre BvS and had certain expectations will be a lot different than those born post BvS.

So while there may not be the animosity and I agree that they probably won't be embraced as classics, if the point is future fans won't hate his movies? Sure I think that's possible but I still think that's a small consolation.

 

[jmart]

My points have already been mentioned, but...

Initially I was worried when Snyder was hired. He seemed to be the only one who wanted the job, and the only movie I liked of his prior to Man of Steel was Dawn of the Dead. Then Man of Steel turned out well (for me). Throw out Pa Kent (even though I really like Costner) and redo the last fight and you've got a great film. But you know, Superman was back and they'll hit it out of the park with the next one...

We have to add Batman? Really Warners? Wonder Woman? Ok, that'll be cool to finally see. I really just would've liked Man of Steel 2 though.

Then sometime shortly before BvS, I read that article about the supposed reaction at Warners not being good. Mix that with all the commercials and trailers showing the same footage again over and over. Remember, if the advertising shows the same thing over and over again, nine times out of ten that movie is garbage.

As a Superman fan first and Batman fan second, I also wasn't a big fan of the shot in all of the advertising with Batman stopping Superman's punch. I understand why that's there, but as a character after Man of Steel, Superman was hardly on his own two feet in the public eye. He was back but not triumphantly. It felt more like Warners was like, "Hey, you all love Batman right? Now watch him kick Superman's ass!" instead of propping both of them up. I know it's a versus movie, but it was also supposed to be a sequel to Man of Steel (in hindsight, that's a load of ****...Superman has what, 42 lines in the theatrical version?).

Then they just flat out revealed Doomsday. Smarrrrrrrt.

Then the movie came out and for all I cared they could've burned that universe to the ground right then and there. That's when it failed (the first time...we still have at least two more movies).

I'm glad they ultimately didn't burn it to the ground because we eventually got Wonder Woman and a watchable (for me) Justice League, but of course we had to go through Suicide Squad first which is only marginally better than BvS.

 

[Deck Rickard]

My points have already been mentioned, but...

Initially I was worried when Snyder was hired. He seemed to be the only one who wanted the job, and the only movie I liked of his prior to Man of Steel was Dawn of the Dead. Then Man of Steel turned out well (for me). Throw out Pa Kent (even though I really like Costner) and redo the last fight and you've got a great film. But you know, Superman was back and they'll hit it out of the park with the next one...

We have to add Batman? Really Warners? Wonder Woman? Ok, that'll be cool to finally see. I really just would've liked Man of Steel 2 though.

Then sometime shortly before BvS, I read that article about the supposed reaction at Warners not being good. Mix that with all the commercials and trailers showing the same footage again over and over. Remember, if the advertising shows the same thing over and over again, nine times out of ten that movie is garbage.

As a Superman fan first and Batman fan second, I also wasn't a big fan of the shot in all of the advertising with Batman stopping Superman's punch. I understand why that's there, but as a character after Man of Steel, Superman was hardly on his own two feet in the public eye. He was back but not triumphantly. It felt more like Warners was like, "Hey, you all love Batman right? Now watch him kick Superman's ass!" instead of propping both of them up. I know it's a versus movie, but it was also supposed to be a sequel to Man of Steel (in hindsight, that's a load of ****...Superman has what, 42 lines in the theatrical version?).

Then they just flat out revealed Doomsday. Smarrrrrrrt.

Then the movie came out and for all I cared they could've burned that universe to the ground right then and there. That's when it failed (the first time...we still have at least two more movies).

I'm glad they ultimately didn't burn it to the ground because we eventually got Wonder Woman and a watchable (for me) Justice League, but of course we had to go through Suicide Squad first which is only marginally better than BvS.

That pretty much sums up my feelings. Of all the bad choices they made in BvS, I think the most egregious was minimizing Superman in such a way that it feels as though the audience is supposed to root against him. Yeah, I know people had issues with the final battle in MoS. But hey, let’s make it 10 times worse and show everyone that people were DEFINITELY getting killed while Superman duked it out with Zod. And then let’s make Superman’s introductory scene in BvS one where he has no dialogue and puts a guy through a wall, presumably killing him. And then let’s just have him mope for the rest of the movie.

Maybe they got off on the wrong foot with Superman in MOS, but in BvS, they ran him into the ground. It makes me kinda wish the Siegel and Shuster heirs had won that legal battle and sold the character to another studio.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Snyder hasn't directed many good movies throughout the entirety of his career, though. He certainly doesn't have any films as good as SM1 or SM2 to hang his hat on. I suspect he'll be greeted warmly by fans of MOS and BVS, but the larger DC fanbase will continue to dislike him, or, over time, simply become indifferent to him.

WB being incompetent didn't/hasn't helped Joel Schumacher's reputation any and his resume is a lot stronger than Snyder's.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Yeah, but if you were around on boards like these post SM3 in 2007 all of his Spiderman films were bashed by a certain group of fans, and by others ,he received the sole blame for SM3.

Fans have forgotten how much flack he and Maguire got from fanboys for all three films post SM3 back in 2007 through 2012. It basically didn't turn until after ASM 2 when fanboys stopped bashing him and realized Sony was largely responsible for missteps in the franchise.

Then again, had the ASM films been excellent and well received among critics, fanboys and the GA he might still be bashed today.

You are giving too much weight to a few loud fanboys. Look at the critic and general audience reaction. Spider-Man 2 in particular, never stopped being on best CBM lists and the like. Even here it was largely the same few loud posters (harryoscop, Spider-Knight, etc.) blasting Raimi all of the time. Unlike with Snyder, there was nothing to suggest a significant portion of the audience did not like at least the first two Raimi films (SM3 is more debatable).

Basically Raimi was the victim of Shiny New Toy Syndrome, whereas certain fans of whatever is current will always bash what came before it in order to prop up their newer version. That's not at all what has happened with Snyder's films. They were disliked when they were current. The reactions to his films have far more in common with Schumacher or The Last Stand/Wolverine Origins or Superman III/IV than with Spider-Man 1 & 2.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Any Zack Snyder fans here ?

Yep!

I actually think history may ironically look kindly on Zack Snyder if WB keeps screwing up their films post JL. At that point, it would become apparent the problem is more of the execs and the studio than it is the filmmakers.

I think that is a possibility.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

After Spiderman 3, Raimi really took a beating from fanboys for a long time. Then the fiasco with the ASM films happened, and the Sony hack revealed their incompetence and meddling which ruined a successful franchise.

Lmao. Let's say for argument's sake that Spider-man 3 is Raimi's BVS. What's his MOS? His Sucker Punch? His Watchmen?

Exactly. Snyder has a storied history of making divisive or bad comic book films. History won't be kind to Snyder's movies.

I actually think history may ironically look kindly on Zack Snyder if WB keeps screwing up their films post JL. At that point, it would become apparent the problem is more of the execs and the studio than it is the filmmakers.

They did screw up, by hiring and rehiring Zaddy. I don't know why the two things must be separated.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I highly doubt in 20 years that the anger or divisiveness around him will still remain even among those who hate him now, let alone younger generations who may not even be born yet.

Or love and devotion.

It goes both ways.

 

[Frodo]

Lmao. Let's say for argument's sake that Spider-man 3 is Raimi's BVS. What's his MOS? His Sucker Punch? His Watchmen?

Exactly. Snyder has a storied history of making divisive or bad comic book films. History won't be kind to Snyder's movies.

You're missing my point. My point was that ALL of Raimi's Spiderman films were bashed by a segment of fanboys after SM3. You may not have been around for it but it did happen. Now he's praised for them and he's been cut alot of slack for SM3 and Sony is blamed.

As far as history goes, we'll see. Its only been a few years. Come back in 20 and we'll talk.

 

[Frodo]

Or love and devotion.

It goes both ways.

Oh yeah, which is my point. Fanboys who think that younger generations will carry the same anger and hang ups about Snyder or love for that matter are gonna be in for a rude awakening.

The next generation who'll come of age when all this stuff is a distant memory aren't gonna care as much or be as emotionally invested in these versions of the characters or Zack Snyder . Fanboys don't like to hear that but that's what's gonna happen like it or not. That's how life is.