Atheism : Love it or Leave it?

[Super Kal]

The bad thing about that logic is that some people think they can constantly do bad and just ask for forgiveness every night or visit their local priest to confess.

it's depressing to see Christians use that as a excuse to say "I can get away with anything."

 

[Gilpesh]

Actually I ahve done quite a bit of religious reading on my path. I regard Judaism and Islam (in its non suicide bombing form) to be equally wise in helping folks navigate the world.

That's cause... christianity, judaism and islam are what people refer to as the Abrahamic religions... meaning they all stole from each other to make three 'different' religions.

I am Christian and I am not certain the Devil exists as a person. I think for the most part people do bad things all on their own. They were given a choice and they chose to do what they did.

So you're smart, not just a christian.

I kid the christians.

 

[The Senator]

If you had to be perfect to get into Heaven, no one would have a ticket. Jesus saved the murderer on the cross to his side. Sin is sin and no matter what you do, if you truly feel bad for your wrongs and you sincerely ask for forgiveness and try to make yourself better from it...then through Jesus you can get into Heaven. The bad thing about that logic is that some people think they can constantly do bad and just ask for forgiveness every night or visit their local priest to confess.

I'm not saying that people should be perfect to get into heaven. I'm saying that it strikes me a bit odd that God would overlook every single atheist (or Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Universalist, Scientologist, etc, for that matter) who lived a normal, serene and admirable life in favor of someone who raped and murdered a child, or some other heinous criminal act. It strikes me as shocking and entirely hypocritical. People follow Christ's example but don't necessarily declare themselves a Christian; does that make them worthy of eternal damnation? There are atheists who are better Christians than Christians themselves. It strikes me as disturbing that entry into heaven depends on accepting Christ and apologizing for all the wrongs you've done; not living a good life and setting an example for others to follow.

 

[squeekness]

That's cause... christianity, judaism and islam are what people refer to as the Abrahamic religions... meaning they all stole from each other to make three 'different' religions.

Yes. Their particular logic system for the most part (but not entirely) agrees with me.

So you're smart, not just a christian.

I kid the christians.

Well, you see, it isn't correct to say that all Chrsitians believe exactly the same way. I say I am a Christian because I can agree with the majority of what Christ had to say. BUT I see things differently than MovieFan does and other Christians I have spoken to. I am not going to get up say who is right and who is wrong because I cannot, I only know what my heart tells me. It is not my job to convert anyone to anything. They are free to believe what they believe. I think it important, though, to recognize not all of us think exactly the same way and lump us all together.

 

[Gilpesh]

I'm not saying that people should be perfect to get into heaven. I'm saying that it strikes me a bit odd that God would overlook every single atheist (or Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Universalist, Scientologist, etc, for that matter) who lived a normal, serene and admirable life in favor of someone who raped and murdered a child, or some other heinous criminal act. It strikes me as shocking and entirely hypocritical. People follow Christ's example but don't necessarily declare themselves a Christian; does that make them worthy of eternal damnation? There are atheists who are better Christians than Christians themselves. It strikes me as disturbing that entry into heaven depends on accepting Christ and apologizing for all the wrongs you've done; not living a good life and setting an example for others to follow.

As Kant says, it's not what you do or the outcome, it's your mindset and how you feel.

 

[The Riddler]

atheism is ignorance.
religion is baseless.
agnosticism is practical.

 

[Bubonic]

personally, I don't believe in the whole "6 day creation"... I won't deny that through God power, it is possible, but it also says that one day to God is like a 100,000 days to us, so take it as you will

Well that works out to 600,000 days, which works out to about 1500 years, which is still preposterous by any well researched accounts. This is not me trying to disrespect you, but take the time to research a little geology or something.

Actually I ahve done quite a bit of religious reading on my path. I regard Judaism and Islam (in its non suicide bombing form) to be equally wise in helping folks navigate the world. I cannot be absolutely sure about anything because there is no absolute proof of things.

Might be my inner sceptic, but I find it more then mere coincidence that you'd find faith in the religion that predominates your day to day life, which has probably always been present in your life, and which your parents and friends probably have a easier time accepting.

Its no wonder you find Judaism and Islam equally wise, as Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, and Islam was one of Christianity. But there are many more religions out there, what was wrong with them? You figure they're practitioners are doomed?
Can you deny your society did not predetermine the path you followed?

 

[Bubonic]

atheism is ignorance.
religion is baseless.
agnosticism is practical.

My understanding of agnosticism is that it is sort of the fence sitting position between the two.
You give equal probability to their being a God as to there not being any. Even though it doesn't seem to be a 50/50 case anyways.

I don't understand how atheism can be construed as being ignorance.
The motivating factor to atheistic thought is knowledge.

 

[squeekness]

Might be my inner sceptic, but I find it more then mere coincidence that you'd find faith in the religion that predominates your day to day life, which has probably always been present in your life, and which your parents and friends probably have a easier time accepting.

Its no wonder you find Judaism and Islam equally wise, as Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, and Islam was one of Christianity. But there are many more religions out there, what was wrong with them? You figure they're practitioners are doomed?
Can you deny your society did not predetermine the path you followed?

Do I deny it ? No. But at the same time I also find it hard to believe that only those of my faith would be saved. I think our actions determine our fate. If a man is a good man, but he doesn't believe in God, I find it hard to think God would just toss him like he means nothing. God supposedly created us all and supposedly loves us all. I think sometimes people think he judges us too harshly because it's the easiest way for some people to cow others into doing what they want.

I see the logic in being a civilized person, I see the logic in people caring for other people. I felt this way before I converted, I converted because I found that Jesus said most of the same things my non-religious mom did when it came to morality. My conversion was easier than I had ever expected. My struggles come mainly from the church, not from what Jesus had to say.


(BTW Islam is not an offshoot of Christianity. While they agree Christ was a wise man, they do not believe he was the Messiah.)

 

[squeekness]

My understanding of agnosticism is that it is sort of the fence sitting position between the two.
You give equal probability to their being a God as to there not being any. Even though it doesn't seem to be a 50/50 case anyways.

I don't understand how atheism can be construed as being ignorance.
The motivating factor to atheistic thought is knowledge.

Yeah, I am going to agree with you there. I fail to see how atheism is ignorance also. Most folks I know who are atheists seem to have really thought it through and not come to that conclusion lightly.....

 

[The Riddler]

My understanding of agnosticism is that it is sort of the fence sitting position between the two.
You give equal probability to their being a God as to there not being any. Even though it doesn't seem to be a 50/50 case anyways.

I don't understand how atheism can be construed as being ignorance.
The motivating factor to atheistic thought is knowledge.

because there are simply questions that cannot be answered.

the existence of the first matter, the creation of the limitless space we live in; something must start from somewhere, and it is only practical that we know we will likely never understand it.

in addition, religion is baseless, and i think it's obvious enough i don't need to elaborate.

 

[BMM]

Do I deny it ? No. But at the same time I also find it hard to believe that only those of my faith would be saved. I think our actions determine our fate. If a man is a good man, but he doesn't believe in God, I find it hard to think God would just toss him like he means nothing. God supposedly created us all and supposedly loves us all. I think sometimes people think he judges us too harshly because it's the easiest way for some people to cow others into doing what they want.

I see the logic in being a civilized person, I see the logic in people caring for other people. I felt this way before I converted, I converted because I found that Jesus said most of the same things my non-religious mom did when it came to morality. My conversion was easier than I had ever expected. My struggles come mainly from the church, not from what Jesus had to say.

Well said.

 

[The Chairman]

Do I deny it ? No. But at the same time I also find it hard to believe that only those of my faith would be saved. I think our actions determine our fate. If a man is a good man, but he doesn't believe in God, I find it hard to think God would just toss him like he means nothing. God supposedly created us all and supposedly loves us all. I think sometimes people think he judges us too harshly because it's the easiest way for some people to cow others into doing what they want.

I see the logic in being a civilized person, I see the logic in people caring for other people. I felt this way before I converted, I converted because I found that Jesus said most of the same things my non-religious mom did when it came to morality. My conversion was easier than I had ever expected. My struggles come mainly from the church, not from what Jesus had to say.


(BTW Islam is not an offshoot of Christianity. While they agree Christ was a wise man, they do not believe he was the Messiah.)

This goes without saying, but I completely agree.

 

[Bubonic]

Do I deny it ? No. But at the same time I also find it hard to believe that only those of my faith would be saved. I think our actions determine our fate. If a man is a good man, but he doesn't believe in God, I find it hard to think God would just toss him like he means nothing. God supposedly created us all and supposedly loves us all. I think sometimes people think he judges us too harshly because it's the easiest way for some people to cow others into doing what they want.

I see the logic in being a civilized person, I see the logic in people caring for other people. I felt this way before I converted, I converted because I found that Jesus said most of the same things my non-religious mom did when it came to morality. My conversion was easier than I had ever expected. My struggles come mainly from the church, not from what Jesus had to say.


(BTW Islam is not an offshoot of Christianity. While they agree Christ was a wise man, they do not believe he was the Messiah.)

Sounds like a humanist to me.
God isn't all that nice in the bible, non-believers are routinely had them slaughtered. He had Joshua slaughter several tribes of peoples, he drowned the world, etcetera.
The 10 commandments where originally exclusive the Jews, so thou shalt not kill another Jew, but everyone else is fair game.
So the grace of God doesn't seem to extend too far.
But if your selectively picking out the good stuff as guidelines, all the power to you if the end result is that your living a good life and being kind to others.

offshoot
1 a: a collateral or derived branch, descendant, or member : outgrowth b: a lateral branch (as of a mountain range)2: a branch of a main stem especially of a plant

For all I know, I still understand Islam as an offshoot of Christianity, or heavily influenced by the workings of the Bibles even if it goes off in its on direction and has its own particular message.

 

[Super Kal]

Well that works out to 600,000 days, which works out to about 1500 years, which is still preposterous by any well researched accounts. This is not me trying to disrespect you, but take the time to research a little geology or something.

lol, it's just a metaphor... try not to take it literally.

who knows how much the difference of time is for God... for all we know, it could be ten million days or even a billion days... the point is, evolution through the work of God is probable.

 

[Bill]

because there are simply questions that cannot be answered.

the existence of the first matter, the creation of the limitless space we live in; something must start from somewhere, and it is only practical that we know we will likely never understand it.

in addition, religion is baseless, and i think it's obvious enough i don't need to elaborate.

Atheism doesn't make any definitive conclusions without evidence, although an atheist might do so. The atheist isn't (read: shouldn't be) saying that there is no god, but rather I don't see any evidence supporting the existence of a god; therefore, I lack the belief in one.

 

[Bubonic]

Atheism doesn't make any definitive conclusions without evidence, although an atheist might do so. The atheist isn't (read: shouldn't be) saying that there is no god, but rather I don't see any evidence supporting the existence of a god; therefore, I lack the belief in one.

QFT

 

[The Riddler]

Atheism doesn't make any definitive conclusions without evidence, although an atheist might do so. The atheist isn't (read: shouldn't be) saying that there is no god, but rather I don't see any evidence supporting the existence of a god; therefore, I lack the belief in one.

ignoring the possibility that there may be a higher power is ignorant, despite the fact one may not think there is evidence for it.

the existence of unanswerable questions should be reason enough to at least acknowledge the possibility there is a higher power instead of simply dismissing it by citing a lack of belief due to lack of concrete evidence.

 

[Bill]

ignoring the possibility that there may be a higher power is ignorant, despite the fact one may not think there is evidence for it.

It's not a case of what one does, or doesn't, think. It's a case of scrutiny for the evidence at hand. There is a "possibility" that our universe is encased inside the shell of a string bean. There is no evidence for it. Am I ignorant for ignoring it?

the existence of unanswerable questions should be reason enough to at least acknowledge the possibility there is a higher power instead of simply dismissing it by citing a lack of belief due to lack of concrete evidence.

Fortunately, scientists resist drawing unsupportable conclusions when the answer to a question is vague or unfathomable. You're wanting the atheist to draw an unsustantiated conclusion favorable to you simply because the answer to certain questions aren't readily apparent.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

I just can't believe this. I can't believe that people who accept Christ are immediately freed from sin and are therefore guaranteed a spot in Heaven. That would mean that murderers, rapists, etc. who accept Christ in jail are automatically given a free pass, whereas atheists who live a decent life with few mistakes or 'sins' are overlooked and sentenced to burn. That's essentially what that logic states. That means that Timothy McVeigh is in heaven right now, watching over all of us, while the dozens of atheists obliterated in that bombing are burning in hell for eternity. It seems so one-sided, and so flawed that God, heaven, Christians, and all involved deal with these absolutes.

What helps this to make more sense is realizing that to God, every sin is equal to another. He sees and knows all, and to Him, telling a "white lie", cheating on your taxes, murdering someone in cold blood, raping someone...all of these and more are equal. It's humanity that's invented this "bell curve" going from tiny flaws to pure evil, not God.

In the Father's eyes, every human being has sinned at some point, and that fact alone is enough to warrant eternal separation from Him. Because God is holy and just, He cannot allow an impure individual entrance into His holy Kingdom...period. We, by our fallen nature, deserve punishment and exile from God forever. Think of all the times you've ever lied, no matter how small...or the times when you've cheated on someone, if applicable. How about the times you've ever stolen, no matter what it was?

The transgressions of every person against God are far too long to list, and that is precisely the point. Our sinful ways prevent us from ever earning our way to the Father, and so Christ was sent as the sacrificial Lamb. Because Jesus wasn't conceived through human passions, He wasn't bound to the Eden curse. Therefore, He was able to live a completely sinless life, although I'm sure it still wasn't easy. After all, He was still living in a fallen world, and the Scriptures detail many temptations He suffered. He even warned the disciples at His capture, saying, "Don't you know I could call an army of angels to save me if I wished?"

But above all else, Jesus knew that His life's mission was not His own...and that if He failed, mankind would forever be exiled from God's presence. So, He willingly gave His life as a pure ransom, to satisfy God's perfect justice, and bridge the gap. The Resurrection completed the job, proving God's ultimate power over death itself. Before that happened, humanity's only hope was the offering of burnt sacrifices for sin, and hoping that God would show mercy. But with the debt we all owe now paid, God simply asks is for us to believe in Him, turn away from our sins through repentance, and trust in Christ as our "ticket" to redemption. People who believe they can simply apologize every day for their sins are fooling themselves. Sin is serious to God, and true repentance means leaving your old ways behind. No one is ever perfect (except Jesus of course), but through the Cross, all can find shelter, forgiveness, and love.

 

[The Riddler]

It's not a case of what one does, or doesn't, think. It's a case of scrutiny for the evidence at hand. There is a "possibility" that our universe is encased inside the shell of a string bean. There is no evidence for it. Am I ignorant for ignoring it?

yes, because it is a possibility. is it plausible? of course not. but to ignore or dismiss such a possibility is ignorant because by doing so, you're eliminating a possibility that for all we know may actually be valid.

just because there isn't evidence does not mean something isn't true, especially when the truth likely cannot be revealed.

Fortunately, scientists resist drawing unsupportable conclusions when the answer to a question is vague or unfathomable. You're wanting the atheist to draw an unsustantiated conclusion favorable to you simply because the answer to certain questions aren't readily apparent.

i don't want atheists to come to any conclusions or answers.

the fact of the matter is, scientists resist drawing conclusions because they cannot support them. there are things beyond the realm of our understanding, such as where matter/the universe was originated or created. this isn't philosophical, it is simply the valid question: where did everything begin?

a question like this is arguably unanswerable.

for this reason, atheists are ignorant because they choose to be unaware of a possibility that perhaps there is a higher power.

agnosticism is practical because belief is not vested in either extreme (belief there are, for sure, higher powers/gods or for sure there aren't) but in the one inarguable viewpoint: there may or may not be a higher power and that we may never know.

 

[Bubonic]

And what happens to those "unfortunate" enough to find themselves believing in heathen Gods?

Tribesman who do not believe in Gods, but force of all living creatures.
Or us poor misguided atheist who try to do some enlightening of our own?

You are an obviously very pious person, and all the power to you I suppose, dedicating all those passages and teachings to heart, and I'm sure such close an observance will lead to a good life.

Do you read up on natural selection, geology, cosmology, to enrich your understanding of your perceived God's creation?
You take some hard science like that, and read up on history, sociology, psychology and I can't see how one still buys into the scam.

I understand how they did, and I understand how it perpetuates itself, but I still figure it wouldn't be beyond people to break away from it and just lead a good life without all the fairy tales.

Moviefan2k4, do you have plans to have kids, or already have some?
Because I wonder if you'll give them a choice in the matter.
Kids should be allowed to make up their own minds without the pressure of familial shame and tradition weighing in on how they'll view the world.

 

[Tally Man]

What helps this to make more sense is realizing that to God, every sin is equal to another. He sees and knows all, and to Him, telling a "white lie", cheating on your taxes, murdering someone in cold blood, raping someone...all of these and more are equal. It's humanity that's invented this "bell curve" going from tiny flaws to pure evil, not God.

Unless of course your Catholic in which case sins come in a variety of different flavors.

As far as atheism goes I'm perfectly fine with it and I wish it wouldn't get as much of a bad spin as it seems to get in the U.S. I mean really what have atheists in the U.S. done to get such a level of distrust?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

And what happens to those "unfortunate" enough to find themselves believing in heathen Gods?

The Egyptians followed so-called "gods", and Pharoah's army was drowned in the Red Sea. You figure it out...

You are an obviously very pious person, and all the power to you I suppose, dedicating all those passages and teachings to heart, and I'm sure such close an observance will lead to a good life.

I actually don't consider myself pious at all. I have my own issues to deal with, but I find some comfort in knowing that I don't fight this battle alone.

Do you read up on natural selection, geology, cosmology, to enrich your understanding of your perceived God's creation? You take some hard science like that, and read up on history, sociology, psychology and I can't see how one still buys into the scam.

Well, I'm definitely no science major, but I believe that nature largely works in ways that God originally intended. Any extreme differences I chalk up to human intervention or the effects of the Fall.

I understand how they did, and I understand how it perpetuates itself, but I still figure it wouldn't be beyond people to break away from it and just lead a good life without all the fairy tales.

What you're missing is the point that to God, a "good life" simply isn't enough, because no matter how "good" we are, we can never be perfect on our own, and that's God's standard. We'll always fall short, until we accept Christ's sacrifice as payment for our sins. It's all very simple; it just takes faith to accept it.

Moviefan2k4, do you have plans to have kids, or already have some? Because I wonder if you'll give them a choice in the matter.

At the moment, I am not married, I have no children, and I have no current intentions to be a father any time soon. I'm just not ready for that kind of responsibility yet, and I don't know if I will ever be. that being said, if I did ever father a child, I'd teach them about God, and His Word to us all. If they asked questions about other religions, I'd answer them as best I could, and ultimately leave the choice to them. But if that choice were to go against God (heaven forbid), they'd be in my every prayer.

Kids should be allowed to make up their own minds without the pressure of familial shame and tradition weighing in on how they'll view the world.

We're all partly shaped by our upbringing; there's no denying that. But in the end, a choice for or against God must be both individual and personal.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Unless of course your Catholic in which case sins come in a variety of different flavors.

Once again, yet another of my issues with the Catholic Church.