BABYLON 5 REMASTERED: A Retrospective and Rewatch Thread!

[moviefreak]

IMO, season 5 story suffered because of "rushed" writing especially compared with the latter half of season 4. However, Jurasik & Katsulas both elevated their scenes.

Of course the final episode is my all-time favourite & #1 for a series finale for any TV series. It was meant to be the series finale at the end of season 4.

 

[InCali]

As far as S5 E11 goes

Spoiler

Lyta + ByronGood riddance

 

[flickchick85]

As far as S5 E11 goes

Spoiler

Lyta + ByronGood riddance

AMEN.

 

[DKDetective]

As far as S5 E11 goes

Spoiler

Lyta + ByronGood riddance

AMEN.

Yep.

Spoiler

I never liked Byron as a character or his commune, but I get what JMS was trying to do. Season 5 gets so much better with them gone.

 

[flickchick85]

On S5 episode 19. These last few have been another great run.

Spoiler

I know that at this point I'm supposed to be feeling sorry for Londo and find his story oh so tragic now, but...I'm afraid the tears ain't coming. He's living in exactly the hell he deserves.

I did suspect the Drakh would be behind all this, considering we pretty much hadn't seen anything from them since their grand entrance, but I didn't know what their motivation would be. Nice callback to Morden's threat.

Waiting for Lennier to betray the Rangers for Delenn somehow, cuz we all know that's coming, lol.

 

[InCali]

On S5 episode 19. These last few have been another great run.

Spoiler

I know that at this point I'm supposed to be feeling sorry for Londo and find his story oh so tragic now, but...I'm afraid the tears ain't coming. He's living in exactly the hell he deserves.

I did suspect the Drakh would be behind all this, considering we pretty much hadn't seen anything from them since their grand entrance, but I didn't know what their motivation would be. Nice callback to Morden's threat.

Waiting for Lennier to betray the Rangers for Delenn somehow, cuz we all know that's coming, lol.

I was going to finish last night but had to go home instead. Oh well. It’s nice to be home.

 

[DKDetective]

I was going to finish last night but had to go home instead. Oh well. It’s nice to be home.

What episode are you on?

 

[flickchick85]

Just finished. Beautiful finale.

 

[DKDetective]

Just finished. Beautiful finale.

I know, right? As @moviefreak also said, it has got to be my favourite series finale of all time. It is perfect. A wonderful character piece and epilogue. Just pitch perfect. Not some big bombast or rushed climax, but instead a chance to take it all in one last time and say goodbye to characters we love.

Spoiler

I don't know if you noticed who threw the switch powering off Babylon 5 for the last time:

It was the Great Maker himself. The man who went from solid brown hair at the start of the series to pure white at the end.

Now that you are done the series, you can enjoy this wonderful retrospective musical suite they did on the season 4 DVDs:


Sorry, been busy with work and have not had a chance to discuss your comments on late season 4/season 5 in depth, but the loss of Ivanova was due to contract squabbles when TNT rescued the series from cancellation about the cast's pay cut for the final season and Claudia wanting clauses in her contract allowing her time off for movies. There are different stories about whether it was Claudia or the network's fault.. All we know is that JMS was innocent since it ****ed up his story plans big time and he very much wanted Claudia back and was willing to accommodate her other roles off the books if need be as he always did for the main cast.

The Byron story probably would have worked better if Ivanova was the female lead in it as intended with the natural tensions between her love for Byron and sympathy for telepaths and duties as military governor of B5.

 

[Snow Queen]

Surprise Julia Nickson G'kar hadn't made too much of an impression on me yet outside of a few funny moments, but he was killing me left and right during Parliament of Dreams. Mind War was quite good as well, so a nice duo tonight. One of the things I'm quite enjoying at the moment is that the show seems to have a sense of humour about its characters that I can appreciate. It doesn't seem afraid to make fun of them, even if giving them dramatic material - but never really undercuts the latter.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, I really, really liked the last two. You can feel the show feeling itself out, which makes sense, it's early. That it has been getting better and better is a nice sign. G'kar killed me Parliament of Dreams. Every time he got freaked out, I died. The ending was also rather good. I wasn't expecting something legitimately poignant like that. Mind War was a bit more of a serious episode, and worked a lot better then I expected.

A few fun things:
- Snow trying to act like she knew who Julia Nickson was before I made her watch the Rambos is embarrassing.
- I now know how DK prepares dinner.
- I also now know how DK gets down at work dinners.
- My brother finally figured out who G'kar looks like. Ivan Ooze.
- The old Narn with the reading glasses was strangely adorable.
- I was waiting for QAnon to show up in that line at t he end of Parliament of Dreams.
- The biotic looked like a tiny Muhammed Ali.
- Chekov showing up was a nice surprise. His hot fellow cop dying was not.
- All the Mass Effect parallels hit me like a ton of bricks, in a good way. Even got the elevators this time around.

 

[Snow Queen]

- Snow trying to act like she knew who Julia Nickson was before I made her watch the Rambos is embarrassing.

Stop living in the past, focus on the now.

 

[DKDetective]

Surprise Julia Nickson G'kar hadn't made too much of an impression on me yet outside of a few funny moments, but he was killing me left and right during Parliament of Dreams. Mind War was quite good as well, so a nice duo tonight. One of the things I'm quite enjoying at the moment is that the show seems to have a sense of humour about its characters that I can appreciate. It doesn't seem afraid to make fun of them, even if giving them dramatic material - but never really undercuts the latter.

Yep, the show has a great sense of humour and is never afraid to poke fun at the characters. There is a famous humourous Mass Effect moment that is literally stolen straight out of B5. Can't wait until Darth sees it.

G'Kar is such a great character and Katsulas is a great actor. He played the stock Romulan baddie on TNG and was the One Armed Man in The Fugitive with Harrison Ford.

Yeah, I really, really liked the last two. You can feel the show feeling itself out, which makes sense, it's early. That it has been getting better and better is a nice sign. G'kar killed me Parliament of Dreams. Every time he got freaked out, I died. The ending was also rather good. I wasn't expecting something legitimately poignant like that. Mind War was a bit more of a serious episode, and worked a lot better then I expected.

A few fun things:
- Snow trying to act like she knew who Julia Nickson was before I made her watch the Rambos is embarrassing.
- I now know how DK prepares dinner.
- I also now know how DK gets down at work dinners.
- My brother finally figured out who G'kar looks like. Ivan Ooze.
- The old Narn with the reading glasses was strangely adorable.
- I was waiting for QAnon to show up in that line at t he end of Parliament of Dreams.
- The biotic looked like a tiny Muhammed Ali.
- Chekov showing up was a nice surprise. His hot fellow cop dying was not.
- All the Mass Effect parallels hit me like a ton of bricks, in a good way. Even got the elevators this time around.

With respect to the ending of Parliament of Dreams, yeah, that is a great moment. It's interesting how great JMS is at writing religion considering he is an atheist himself.

If you think things are getting good and settling in now, well the next three episodes are on another level. Speaking of which, if you are looking for Qanon/Trump supporters, just wait for the next episode.

As I told @flickchick85 or @InCali, because I grew up with B5 and TOS was moreso on rereuns, I actually think of Koenig as Bester first and Chekhov second.

Of course, the loss of Bester's partner upsets you... You have such a type!

Yeah, the Mass Effect parallels will continue adding up like bricks in a wall until well... We will see what conclusions you draw.

Which ones specifically are you noticing now?

 

[metaphysician]

With respect to the ending of Parliament of Dreams, yeah, that is a great moment. It's interesting how great JMS is at writing religion considering he is an atheist himself.

I think the importance difference is that, unlike a lot of sci-fi writers ( or showrunners, cough Roddenberry cough ), JMS doesn't hold the very idea of religion in contempt. He's fascinated by it, and what it can reveal about the human condition. Thus, he writes much more interesting religious science fiction than your standard "human have left behind their superstitions" or "humans being superstitious and suffering for it" stories.

 

[DKDetective]

I think the importance difference is that, unlike a lot of sci-fi writers ( or showrunners, cough Roddenberry cough ), JMS doesn't hold the very idea of religion in contempt. He's fascinated by it, and what it can reveal about the human condition. Thus, he writes much more interesting religious science fiction than your standard "human have left behind their superstitions" or "humans being superstitious and suffering for it" stories.

To quote Londo: "You got it in one, Mr. Garibaldi."

Boy, do I miss JMS working on space operas. He was such a master of the genre. I would love to see him totally bury Kurtzman and Goldsman era Star Trek...

So sad that TNT sabotaged Crusade right from episode 1. Can you imagine if we had actually gotten JMS' take on a classic Trek style exploration series starring this man:

 

[OutOfBoose]

Binge watched the first season. It took a few episode to get used to the increased resolution and 4:3.

I forgot how devilishly likable Koenig as Bester is. One of my favorite supporting characters.

G'Kar is such a great character and Katsulas is a great actor. He played the stock Romulan baddie on TNG and was the One Armed Man in The Fugitive with Harrison Ford.

G'Kar has incredible dramatic scenes in the show. Top quality character arc. I was also surprised when I discovered his voice acting work in rather obscure (but good) game from PS2 - Primal. I managed to play it probably a decade after it's original release. He voices Scree the gargoyle there, one of the playable characters. Fantastic work.

 

[InCali]

I think the importance difference is that, unlike a lot of sci-fi writers ( or showrunners, cough Roddenberry cough ), JMS doesn't hold the very idea of religion in contempt. He's fascinated by it, and what it can reveal about the human condition. Thus, he writes much more interesting religious science fiction than your standard "human have left behind their superstitions" or "humans being superstitious and suffering for it" stories.

Funny that they had this little known SciFi writer consulting on the series. I wonder how much influence he had. Dude was a trip.



I finished a few days ago (probably around the same time as @flickchick85; which, I must say is quite the accomplishment) and here's something wanna Fing know...... @DKDetective you prolly know as much as anyone....

Spoiler

What the frell happened with the eye thingys? What about Sheridan's son and that particular gift? Earlier, we saw the future with G'kar and Londo offing themselves. Did that happen? We saw an old Londo viewing the Shadows and imprisoning and releasing Delenn and Sheridan.....clearly that didn't happen. Did they change the future? Was this ever addressed by JMS?

I recognized Katsulas' name immediately when I saw it. Really terrific actor.

 

[DKDetective]

Funny that they had this little known SciFi writer consulting on the series. I wonder how much influence he had. Dude was a trip.



I finished a few days ago (probably around the same time as @flickchick85; which, I must say is quite the accomplishment) and here's something wanna Fing know...... @DKDetective you prolly know as much as anyone....

Spoiler

What the frell happened with the eye thingys? What about Sheridan's son and that particular gift? Earlier, we saw the future with G'kar and Londo offing themselves. Did that happen? We saw an old Londo viewing the Shadows and imprisoning and releasing Delenn and Sheridan.....clearly that didn't happen. Did they change the future? Was this ever addressed by JMS?

I recognized Katsulas' name immediately when I saw it. Really terrific actor.

With respect to Harlan's influence, it is massive. JMS spent his childhood reading Harlan's work and idolizing him. They eventually became friends and Harlan was effectively his mentor during his formative years as a writer. However, I don't think Harlan had any direct involvement other than JMS bouncing stuff off of him like George Lucas did with his friends, Spielberg, Coppola, and De Palma.

With respect to the ending...

Spoiler

Everything with Sheridan, Delenn, their son, and Londo, all happened exactly how we saw in Sheridan's time in the future in War Without End.

That gift that London gave John and Delenn for their son to be opened on his 18th birthday had a keeper in it just like the one controlling Londo.

London wanted to prevent it, which is why he so badly wanted to get drunk with John on Minbar when he gave it to them. He wanted to warn them, but without alcohol to put his Keeper to sleep he could not.

So what happens is David opens it as planned, falls under the Drakh's control and goes to their place of power, Centauri Prime. John and Delenn chase after him and are captured, but David is saved. Londo saves them by getting drunk to put his Keeper to sleep, releasing them, and then asking G'Kar to kill him before it awakens. It awakens and they kill one another as foretold, but it is a mutual sacrifice for the greater good and to save Sheridan, Delenn, and their son.

As Lady Mirella foretold for London's three chances at redemption:
1. Save the eye that does not see - He failed to protect G'Kar from Cartagia.
2. Do not kill the one is already dead. - He failed here by giving into his vengeance and killing Morden. Killing Morden and destroying the Shadow base caused the Death is seek retribution.
3. Surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing it will destroy you - Londo finally got redemption by giving into the dream of his death, saving Sheridan and asking G'Kar to kill him.

It's also confirmed by the images of Londo and -G'Kar used in their last moments in the finale. The end credits show both characters' first appearances and their last ones. For G'Kar and Londo it is their deaths as shown in War Without End.

There is also a Canon continuation novel trilogy by Peter David about Centauri that goes into depth about all this. The other two canon novel trilogies are about the Telepath War and the Technomages.

Also, if you want some more answers on this. Watch the B5 tv movie, In the Beginning. It is about the Earth-Minbari War from the perspective of B5 characters, but it's framing story is from shortly before Sleeping in Light.

 

[InCali]

With respect to Harlan's influence, it is massive. JMS spent his childhood reading Harlan's work and idolizing him. They eventually became friends and Harlan was effectively his mentor during his formative years as a writer. However, I don't think Harlan had any direct involvement other than JMS bouncing stuff off of him like George Lucas did with his friends, Spielberg, Coppola, and De Palma.

With respect to the ending...

Spoiler

Everything with Sheridan, Delenn, their son, and Londo, all happened exactly how we saw in Sheridan's time in the future in War Without End.

That gift that London gave John and Delenn for their son to be opened on his 18th birthday had a keeper in it just like the one controlling Londo.

London wanted to prevent it, which is why he so badly wanted to get drunk with John on Minbar when he gave it to them. He wanted to warn them, but without alcohol to put his Keeper to sleep he could not.

So what happens is David opens it as planned, falls under the Drakh's control and goes to their place of power, Centauri Prime. John and Delenn chase after him and are captured, but David is saved. Londo saves them by getting drunk to put his Keeper to sleep, releasing them, and then asking G'Kar to kill him before it awakens. It awakens and they kill one another as foretold, but it is a mutual sacrifice for the greater good and to save Sheridan, Delenn, and their son.

As Lady Mirella foretold for London's three chances at redemption:
1. Save the eye that does not see - He failed to protect G'Kar from Cartagia.
2. Do not kill the one is already dead. - He failed here by giving into his vengeance and killing Morden. Killing Morden and destroying the Shadow base caused the Death is seek retribution.
3. Surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing it will destroy you - Londo finally got redemption by giving into the dream of his death, saving Sheridan and asking G'Kar to kill him.

It's also confirmed by the images of Londo and -G'Kar used in their last moments in the finale. The end credits show both characters' first appearances and their last ones. For G'Kar and Londo it is their deaths as shown in War Without End.

There is also a Canon continuation novel trilogy by Peter David about Centauri that goes into depth about all this. The other two canon novel trilogies are about the Telepath War and the Technomages.

Also, if you want some more answers on this. Watch the B5 tv movie, In the Beginning. It is about the Earth-Minbari War from the perspective of B5 characters, but it's framing story is from shortly before Sleeping in Light.

So that all happened between E21 and 22?

Spoiler

We just didn't see it? Also, I thought Londo was old when he saw the Shadow vessels, but they were gone by then. I might be misremembering his age though. It' explains why you don't see Londo and G'kar in E22

 

[DKDetective]

So that all happened between E21 and 22?

Spoiler

We just didn't see it? Also, I thought Londo was old when he saw the Shadow vessels, but they were gone by then. I might be misremembering his age though. It' explains why you don't see Londo and G'kar in E22

Him seeing...

Spoiler

The Shadow vessels over Centauri Prime is what happened at the start of season 4 when he was recalled to be an advisor to Cartagia. If you go back and watch the vision, he is young and wearing his purple coat in it (ie. Not yet Emperor). The vision of him becoming Emperor in said vision is also him young.

JMS actually wrote in that scene of London not being able to find his dark navy coat due to cleaning to explain him wearing his original purple jacket again, so that it would match the vision as filmed in season 2.

Yeah, they are both dead as foretold, which is why during the Last Supper, Vir is Emperor and when go around toasting absent (ie. Dead) friends, Vir and Garibaldi respectively name Londo and G'Kar.

 

[InCali]

Spoiler

got it. Makes sense now. There was a time lapse between 21 and 22

 

[DKDetective]

Spoiler

got it. Makes sense now. There was a time lapse between 21 and 22

Time lapse...

Spoiler

You don't say!

In all seriousness, the lapse is 19 years from the end of season 5 proper. Sleeping in Light functions as an epilogue. There is a voiceover at the start of the episode explaining it, but you might have missed it since I know you have care obligations while you were watching.

 

[moviefreak]

I didn't watch much of Star Trek Discovery, so this youtube vid prompted me to ask myself how much Kurtzman & co really cribbed from Babylon 5. lol

The uniforms are similar. There were some similar set designs, alien designs & clothing as Minibar. Some similar dialogues & plot elements...

 

[flickchick85]

So now that I've had a few days to process, some general thoughts....

Spoiler

Well it took 4.5 seasons but they finally, FINALLY made Lyta interesting to me in the last stretch. Huzzah! I think @DKDetective is right that the Byron stuff would've been more interesting with Ivanova, but oh well. Better late than never, Lyta!

I was wondering when exactly the future of "War Without End" was set, but DK's explanation sorted it out quite nicely. That was really well-done, imo. And I totally spaced on Londo's "3 chances at redemption" so that was very cool as well. I never became sympathetic toward the character, but I do think his arc was well-handled, and I'm actually glad he didn't get a "happy ending," as it tells me JMS didn't expect me the viewer to forgive everything he did. Showrunners seeming so in-tune with their audience is a very rare quality. Vince Gilligan's the only other one that comes to mind at the moment.

I'm a little sad that we didn't get to meet David, but I guess it wasn't really necessary.

S5 took a little while to get going but once it did, it delivered. I wasn't really feeling DK's love for Sheridan until S5. Before that, he was basically a Hal Jordan without the alcoholism to me - which meant I enjoyed him, as I do Hal - but the way Boxleitner played him seemed a little too into his own myth/greatness to me at times. His OTT speechifying didn't help, lol. BUT he made for a wonderful, thoughtful president of the Alliance, and that helped me finally get the love for him. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's my favorite starship captain in fiction or anything, but a great character, nonetheless.

I'm amazed at how well the finale still worked despite being moved a season later than planned. I know this is the only reason we got to see Ivanova again, but NO finale would've worked for me without her, so I'm very glad for that.

I had no idea what JMS looked like, so no I didn't recognize him as the guy turning off the lights. Neat. That video was also neat.

And now for FC's official rankings of the B5 seasons:

1.) Season 4
2.) Season 3
3.) Season 2
4.) Season 5
5.) Season 1

 

[flickchick85]

- My brother finally figured out who G'kar looks like. Ivan Ooze.

Oh s*** he does.