Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by MAKAVELI25, Nov 19, 2012.
Motivation - Joker(would be Bane until Talia made the reveal, because, while I don't view Bane as some 'lapdog', Joker was on his own)
Characterization - Both
Impact - Joker during his time and after; Bane only during his time of reign
Skills/Talents - Has to be Bane because of his training; Joker didn't really have any skills except to **** with your head and magic tricks
Motivation - Joker
Characterization - Joker
Impact - Joker
Skills/Talents - The only thing Bane has over the Joker is his physical strength but other than that, the Joker still has this.
Motivation - like the Joker more even though in theory I like Bane more because it's more personal, but the way things were executed - I like Joker's motivation more.
Characterisation - This is kinda tough for me. I like the Joker more because I like villains who are more independent (not to say that Bane wasn't)but then I also like villains who are mercenaries, military-minded and more physical. I think I'll give this one to the Joker but then again, I think this is kinda unfair because I wasn't expecting anything from Joker (or anything from the film at all) but with Bane I had so many preconceived notions so I dunno.
Impact - This may be kind of unfair because Joker had far more impact but then I'd never seen many films before that time, so it'd be a given that I would be blown away.
Skills/Talents - I loved that Bane had brawn and brains - great fighter with tactical mind. An incredible mix. I like these kind of characters so I'll go with Bane here, but the Joker's talents were insane and he survived through so much without the skills that Bane has - so I'm not really sure with this one.
These will probably change tomorrow
Seeing as everone knew this was gonna be the last film in the trilogy when making it Bane was merely just a device to allow Bruce to move on IMO if they had intentions to make another I think the outcome of this film would have been a hell of a lot different. With The Joker they had a lot more freedom I feel.
The Joker for every single category. His motivation, characterization, and impact were all better than Bane's.
As for skill, Joker climbed up from being a common bank robber to the top man in Gotham's underworld, he destroyed Harvey Dent, he killed Rachel, turned Gotham into chaos, and he turned all of Gotham against Batman. He did all of that without inheriting a global organization like the LOS and it's resources and knowledge.
I must agree with your post 110%
Joker in all aspects. Bane has the physical strength over Joker, but Joker's talents are different. He's able to get inside your head and bring you to his lever. He will take your advantage and turn it around on you to balance out the fight. He takes you out of your comfort zone, and I'll take that over brute strength any day.
If you had a category called "which one sounded more like Sean Connery in a gas mask", then that would be the only one Bane would win.
Joker all the way.
(what kind of motivation is blowing up everything for no reason at all?).I know a lot of Batman fans crap on Hush(rightfully) and some other villains for bizarre motivations but at it's core Joker's motivation is simply stupid,saved only by good execution.
Joker(Ledgers performance is magical).
Bane easy,the OP is'nt asking how each of them got said skills,Bane's training puts him above the Joker.
Oh you. Sean Connery. Howd you come up w that??!?! Laugh riot. Ha ha.
Motive; Joker wants to break Gotham's soul, bring in a better class of criminal, and exposes the morality of good people as a bad joke. Win.
Bane wants to fulfill the legacy of a guy who kicked him out of his gang, and it contradicts Ra's ideals cos Ra's only wanted to waste Gotham when it was full of crime and corruption not during a peace time. Fail.
Characterization; Joker all the way. Ledger out acted muzzle voiced Bane. Joker was his own man doing his own thing. Bane was a LOS servant doing it cos he loves Talia.
Impact; The J-Man did things to Bruce that can never be changed like killing Rachel. Ya can heal from a broken back but ya can't bring back the dead.
Skills; Joker needed no army to wreak chaos on Gotham. Give him a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets and he's got citizens rioting in the streets and the National Guard being called in. That's skill.
I'm not even close to the first person to think this.
Motivation: Bane, because Joker has no motivation. He just does things. Having a philosophy about humanity is not the same as a motivation. We don't know what makes Joker tick at the end of the day and why he is the way that he is. Bane is more human, Joker is a pure monster.
Characterization- Joker. I love Hardy's Bane so much, but Heath's Joker is probably the best "thing" in the entire trilogy.
Impact- I'll say Joker, since we know his actions had an impact on the next 8 years of Gotham. Bane's actions were on a much larger scale and far more devastating, but in terms of Bruce's story Joker probably did more psychological damage.
Skills- Bane, easy.
Overall, Joker was the perfect villain for a second film. Bane was the perfect villain for a third film, in terms of how they relate to Bruce's journey.
Warning...totally diplomatic answer incoming.
Joker was the perfect villain for a second film. Bane was the perfect villain for a third film.
You'd think so, but there will be some who will disagree and bash on Bane's appearance in TDKR, lol.
Which leads me to believe that they would have crapped on the movie regardless of Talia.
I think The Joker is a lot better than Bane in all of these categories. The Joker had a motive. He wanted to break Gotham's soul. I find that more interesting than Bane duplicating Ra's Al Ghul's work.
A goal or a philosophy is not the same thing as a motive. Ultimately Joker didn't have a motive, or if he did, we're not privy to it. Hence why he tells the multiple choice version of his origin.
Bane was quite good and I'm liking him more after rewatches, though The Joker has this in all categories. He does that to pretty much everybody.
Well said. I'm sure Joker would mix things up with Bane's plans, where strength and muscle size began to mean little.
"You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you. Noooo, you need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey"
"I'll show you, when the chips are down these civilized people, they'll eat each other"
Joker's philosophy is his motive. Just as Ra's philosophy about justice and balance was his motive.
His multiple choice origin story is the nod to the comics where Joker is so insane that he remembers his past differently.
I was more into Bane's desire to prove himself superior to Ra's Al Ghul and the Batman. His plan was also far grander than the Joker's. More widespread. However the Joker's plan had a greated personal impact on Batman/Bruce Wayne, I think.
Therefore, for me, Bane takes 3 of your categories while Joker takes impact. The revolution was, afterall, built on the aftermath of Joker's actions.
edit: Joker's speeches about his past left me with the impression that he'd went to the Law for assistance and was either beaten/punished by corrupt cops or handed over to the gangster pulling the Law's strings.
I'm just going to wing it, without over-thinking it for right now:
Motivation - Joker
Characterization - Joker
Impact - Joker
Skills/Talents - Bane
Well, I would agree that if we had to put a motive on The Joker, it would be his philosophy. I just don't like to think of it that way. That's like saying Batman's motive to do what he does is to stop crime and defend Gotham because its citizens are basically good and deserve saving. Yes, it's technically kind of true but it misses the full scope of why he chooses to do it in the particular way that he does it. I feel there's something inherently "unknowable" about The Joker's evil and that's part of his lasting appeal as a character, and that's why they included that nod to The Killing Joke in TDK. All of the villains in this series have a philosophy. But we don't get to know a single thing about where The Joker came from like we do with Two-Face, Bane, Ra's and Talia. We know what his worldview is, but not what shaped it or how it came to be. Same with Crane. We know how he views fear and its power over the mind, but not what caused him to be like that. With The Joker we don't even know why he went with the clown motif. It just is...and that's awesome.
How the Joker came to be the way he is has nothing to do with the fact that he DOES want to do something specific. The Joker has a specific goal and agenda. He has beliefs and ideals, and he spells them out in great length in the movie.
People reference his line to Harvey about him not being a schemer and just doing things, and completely miss the point that Joker was conning Harvey to break his mind and corrupt him in this scene. He was trying to claim that just because he was locked up in Gordon's cell at the time of what happened to Rachel and Harvey that meant he wasn't to blame for it. He wanted Harvey to go and kill the others, "the schemers" like Gordon, his Cops, the mob. The ones trying to control their little worlds. And it works. Harvey tells Maroni Joker is just a mad dog, and he wants the ones who let Joker off the leash.
How he came into the frame of mind that Gotham's morals and codes are all "a bad joke" and must be torn down is the mystery element of the character. You're right, it's awesome. That was Nolan's intention. Joker was to be an absolute. But he has a motive and an agenda. We just don't know how he came to have these crazy ideals.
But just listening to his two possible back stories, it's not hard to imagine how he got such a warped view of the world.