Batman Forever: Scene by Scene

[Thebumwhowalks]

......this describes every. single. one. of your posts.

A while ago, like, maybe about 7 or 8 months ago, I too had it pointed out to me that I should use more paragraphs, and I took that onboard, so , as you can see, on this very thread, where I typed up a lot, I have taken care to place spaces amongst the text.

edit: and even back then, I didn't put up walls of text, I still left a lot of gaps at the end of sentence, which, on paper, constitute paragraphs.

 

[Homer J. Fong]

I split the long paragraph on Nygma into two, but I can't promise there won't be long paragraphs to come. When they're long, it's because I don't think they're separate enough ideas for more than one paragraph.

6. GETTING UNDER HIS CAPE

(Running time: 0:16:34 - 0:19:52)

The dynamic between Batman and Chase is totally different from the one between Bruce and Vicki, or the one between Bruce and Selina, or the one between Batman and Catwoman. That's not just because it’s a love triangle with only two people, but because there’s an attempt throughout this film to have a snappy, film noir- or screwball comedy-style banter between the two. There are some good lines/exchanges, mostly in this scene (Batman: Are you trying to get under my cape, Doctor?; Chase: My life’s an open book. You read it?; Chase: I’ll bring the wine. You bring your scarred psyche; Batman: Try firemen. Less to take off), but it's not successful ultimately. This scene does have a slinky, sexy, amusing air about it. Chase comes on strong, but that’s okay, and it’s enjoyable to watch her throw Batman off his guard. My problem isn't how forward she is throwing herself at Batman, it's that she's never presented as the ace criminal psychologist she's sort of meant to be. It's the "Dr. Christmas Jones syndrome."

It’s interesting to consider an alternate version of this movie that has Michael Keaton and Rene Russo in these roles, because it’s so difficult to imagine Keaton’s Batman exchanging flirtatious quips with a woman who wants him and whom he wants back. His Batman was not one for the verbal sparring. It works with Kilmer and Kidman; they’re pretty good together, but Kilmer is especially good in his comic timing. He’s funny with her, but he remains believable (until&#8230. He rejects her advances, but it’s no use denying his attraction to her.

Remember when I said that the fetishization would get worse? Well, it's getting worse. I'd rather Batman never be sexualized at all - Chase proclaiming Batman to be "the wrong kind of man," comparing his black rubber suit to motorcycles and leather jackets as she caresses his sculpted chest makes me cringe a bit every time - but what am I going to do, criticize the very notion of a love interest (who isn't Catwoman) who's turned on by Batman? That would be sort of silly. There's nothing innately wrong about that, even if it doesn't sit quite right with me.

Other notes
-A trap door entrance to the Batcave hidden under Bruce’s office chair. Neat!

-The cape of this Batsuit has a great flow to it, moves really nicely.

-“You called me here for this? The Batsignal is not a beeper.” Not dated at all.

-“It’s the car, right? Chicks love the car.” That is just barely acceptable.

-“You like strong women. I’ve done my homework. Or do I need skintight vinyl and a whip?” Okay, that’s a nice reference.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I split the long paragraph on Nygma into two, but I can't promise there won't be long paragraphs to come. When they're long, it's because I don't think they're separate enough ideas for more than one paragraph.

Thanks. But aye, I think it's ok to bend the rules when they are getting in the way of making your work readable/easy on the eyes. Like, I will just split up a paragrpah on the same subject if I feel it is getting wall-y, and hard on the eyes.

After all, here, we are reading from electronic screens which emit a lot of light, which are not as easy on the eyes as reading from paper.
When the rules were made up for writing, this method of reading did not exist.

 

[El Payaso]

I truly believe that scene between Batman and Chase must be one of the worst ever in a bat-movie.

Chase is portrayed as an air-headed bimbo and that fake-sounding sarcasm sounds both forced and doesn't suit her.

Add to that a Batman that feels intimidated by this bimbo and that usually walks away when she comes close.

It's a shame.

 

[lordofthenerds]

I truly believe that scene between Batman and Chase must be one of the worst ever in a bat-movie.

Chase is portrayed as an air-headed bimbo and that fake-sounding sarcasm sounds both forced and doesn't suit her.

Add to that a Batman that feels intimidated by this bimbo and that usually walks away when she comes close.

It's a shame.

And to add to that, this horny bimbo was also supposed to be an acclaimed psychiatrist.

 

[OutRiddled]

I truly believe that scene between Batman and Chase must be one of the worst ever in a bat-movie.

Chase is portrayed as an air-headed bimbo and that fake-sounding sarcasm sounds both forced and doesn't suit her.

Add to that a Batman that feels intimidated by this bimbo and that usually walks away when she comes close.

It's a shame.

She is the only sexually confident woman in all the Batman movies.

Vicki - damsel in distress
Selina - psychotic
Poison Ivy - needs a plant toxin to seduce
Julie Madison - eh...
Rachel - stuck up *****

The only chick who just wants to f..k Batman.

 

[lordofthenerds]

She is the only sexually confident woman in all the Batman movies.

Vicki - damsel in distress
Selina - psychotic
Poison Ivy - needs a plant toxin to seduce
Julie Madison - eh...
Rachel - stuck up *****

The only chick who just wants to f..k Batman.

As cheesy as a character that was, I'd definitely say this one was sexually confident.

 

[El Payaso]

And to add to that, this horny bimbo was also supposed to be an acclaimed psychiatrist.

AGH. Yes. It's just absurd. She's a 30 something acclaimed psychiatrist still dealing with her teenage fantasies and taking them for valid and real. The character was just so stupid.

She is the only sexually confident woman in all the Batman movies.

If for "sexually confident" you mean "horny" or "that still uses her body as a sexual tool of self-gratification so she can compensate her lack of maturity" then okay.

 

[OutRiddled]

As cheesy as a character that was, I'd definitely say this one was sexually confident.

I thought she was portrayed more as a nerd that got transformed by chemicals..

If for "sexually confident" you mean "horny" or "that still uses her body as a sexual tool of self-gratification so she can compensate her lack of maturity" then okay.

Women get horny too, so I heard.

 

[El Payaso]

Women get horny too, so I heard.

So you don't know?

Yeah, anyways you don't confuse that and being sexually confident.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Recent interview with Val kilmer, where he talks about BF, and the Burton/Schumacher films in comparison to the Nolan flicks:

http://www.batman-on-film.com/misc-bat-news_Val-Kilmer-talks-FOREVER_4-20-12.html

 

[El Payaso]

Link's not working...

 

[Cain]

I'm interested but I don't visit Jett's site so I'll wait for it to pop up elsewhere.

 

[BatSpider]

I really wish OP kept going on with the next scenes of the movie

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Hey what happened with the movie descrip? This is my fav Batman and Bruce Wayne. I feel Val was the only only who played Bruce as a person, not as a characture like in the Nolan films or an enigma like in Burton's.

 

[Homer J. Fong]

7. TERMINATING STICKLEY

(Running time: 0:19:53 - 0:24:48)

Batman Forever may have a new director, an almost entirely new cast and crew, and a very different tone and aesthetic, but it’s not all fresh; here we have the third Batman in a row in which an overbearing boss plays a key part in the creation of one of our villains. Each has done something different with that: Jack Napier was having an affair with boss Grissom’s mistress, and, once Grissom found out, he sent Jack on a suicide mission – or what he thought was a suicide mission. Good ol’ Jack got the last laugh, though, and, in his first act as The Joker, gleefully shot Grissom – a lot. Yhe next in this line, Max Shreck, was an oppressive force to his secretary, Selina Kyle; after treating her as less than worthless, Shreck pushed her out a window once she had too much information. Unlike with Jack, we sympathize with her, and we never forget that Shreck is the real villain of the piece. In BF, Fred Stickley is the overbearing boss to Edward Nygma, but he’s no more than a cartoon, with barely the one dimension; he may as well be Mr. Spacely shouting at George Jetson. He neither arranges Edward’s death nor serves as a tyrannical force to engender our sympathy for the impending supervillain. He’s a first victim of The Riddler, but, more importantly – and the reason he is The Riddler’s first victim – a figure to stand in between Nygma and Bruce Wayne.

Still, I don’t think the existence of the Stickley character is justified; I think things would have happened the same way without him standing in between Nygma and Wayne. Stickley’s an obstacle to Edward meeting Bruce, but that slight obstacle is before this story begins. The “evil boss” angle/character is used as a bit of a crutch this time around.

EdwardNygma has snapped when this scene begins, but he’s snapped in the sense that, in his, “You were supposed to understand…I’ll make you understand,” moment, he went from being worshipful toward and infatuated with Bruce to hating him and needing to prove him wrong. He’s not a danger to Gotham but a danger to Bruce. This scene marks a turning point for Mr. Nygma. This invention of his was not meant as a weapon; despite the troubling implications of brain manipulation, he thought of it as a breakthrough in the way people engage with entertainment – “makes the audience feel like they’re inside the show,” he said. In testing it on Stickley, he makes quite the discovery: While the…oh, let’s say “participant” is hypnotized by whatever they’re viewing, he can feed off their neural energy to grow smarter himself. Ah, so now a goal is emerging, and one that threatens GothamCity in addition to Wayne. I wish there were some menace to this scene, but no, all comedy, with Carrey playing game show host, contestant, announcer, and more. The way he “terminates” Stickley is enjoyably maniacal, though.

 

[Jim-El]

Homer, I for one am really enjoying your break down of this underrated movie. I see there are al ot of haters, but it was a very good movie to me. I liked the James Bond start. It is a quick action sequence that helps define the movie. Sure, a lot of the movie is over the top compared to the Nolan Trilogy, but it does not take away from my enjoyment of it. It is simply a fun movie with a great soundtrack that goes along side. The many one liners you have already mentioned I happen to love. The exchanges between Chase and Batman were humorous and memorable to me. Carrey was hilarious as he always is. Tommy Lee's role is also underrated. My favorite line........Batman: "It's the car right? Chicks love the car." I know many hate it, but not me. I look forward to your new installments to this movie. Thanks again for your great in depth overview.

 

[Homer J. Fong]

8. RIDDLES TO SOLVE

(Running time: 0:24:49 - 0:29:05)

It seems to me that, between The Riddler and Two-Face, the more compelling origin clearly belongs to Two-Face. It probably doesn’t even matter how those origins are adapted for the specific film, if the fundamentals remain, Two-Face has the more interesting creation story. The evolution of Harvey Dent into Two-Face – which is no evolution at all – is treated in a perfunctory way, seen in a mere newscast recap – okay, that’s fine, but you can’t help but want more . Dent blames Batman for his disfigurement, presumably because not only did Batman not stop Maroni from maiming him, but after the existence of this “six-foot bat” was confirmed, Harvey was one of those who allowed Batman to operate in Gotham, but when push came to shove, Batman didn’t protect him. That’s good conflict, and there’s more involving drama in that “I trusted you, and you failed me” attitude of Two-Face than there is in anything that’s actually in Batman Forever. Luckily, we had the outstanding “Two-Face” two-parter on Batman: The Animated Series to give us that well-rounded origin story, and in 2008, The Dark Knight came along, showing us a beautifully developed version of the character and what his transformation/downfall means to everyone around him. I do also love what was done with Edward Nygma/The Riddler, and the filmmakers obviously had a lot of interest and fun in interpreting him in their own, fresh way. Their choice to explore the creation of The Riddler and start with a fully formed Two-Face is valid, but Two-Face was still underserved.

After being caught up on how Harvey Dent became Two-Face (no word on how the other half went from black to white, though), it’s off to the WayneTech offices, where Bruce, Commissioner Gordon, and the rest learn of Stickley’s “suicide.” Whenever you revisit a movie from the ‘80s/’90s that deals with virtual reality, it’s fun to look back and scoff at how silly it all is, but what we see here isn’t all that unbelievable. I have a problem with a Gordon who would take the forged video and note at face value 100%, declare, “Yep, definitely suicide,” and call it a day, but that was the character in these movies at this point. At least Bruce isn’t buying it.

What works about this brief scene is the dark comedy of Edward going from a (convincing imitation of a) grieving wreck to a cunning maniac covering his tracks. From the bit at WayneTech to the bit in his apartment – aN overstuffed set that’s just perfect for his character – Carrey’s doing great work mixing the funny, menacing, and pathetic aspects of this guy.

Most importantly, this scene features the appearance of the first riddle: “If you look at the numbers on my face, you won’t find 13 any place.” It’s not especially intriguing or difficult to solve, but this one’s not meant to be; the focus right now is just that someone has started sending Bruce Wayne riddles, and who would do that?

Other notes
-“He was like my father, my brother…or a cousin that visits all the time.”

-“I found this in my cubicle. You’ll find the handwriting matches his exactly, as does sentence structure and spelling.”

-Standing behind Bruce and Gordon, off to the far left, in two shots, is Happy Hogan himself, Jon Favreau.

-The song playing during the segment with Edward in his apartment creating his next riddle is “Bad Days” by The Flaming Lips.

 

[kewlmatto]

Most importantly, this scene features the appearance of the first riddle: “If you look at the numbers on my face, you won’t find thirteen any place.” It’s not an especially intriguing or difficult to solve, but this one’s not meant to be; the focus right now is just that someone has started sending Bruce Wayne riddles, and who would do that?

Even if I put aside my reservations about Carrey's ridiculously campy Riddler and go with it, I still find the riddles very disappointing in this film. If they made these a little better that might have been enough to salvage the character somewhat.

I know they all combine to one larger riddle, but they are all so simple. Then again, the 'psychology' in this film is about as smart as a brick.

 

[Homer J. Fong]

9. NOT EXACTLY WHAT THEY SEEM

(Running time: 0:29:06 - 0:32:52)

Someone's been sending Bruce Wayne love letters.

The delivery of a second riddle – “Tear one off and scratch my head. What once was red is black instead” – has motivated Bruce to consult with Dr. Meridian, but he doesn’t refer to them as riddles, he refers to them as love letters. There is no subtext; Edward is a Bruce Wayne devotee whose crush/devotion could turn deadly. The riddles don’t read as “love letters,” though, so it feels a bit odd that Bruce immediately interprets them as such; it feels more like the movie cutting to the chase (oh crap, no pun intended) because we’ve already grasped that Nygma “may suffer from obsessional syndrome with potential homicidal tendencies.” I wish that the initial appearance of riddles had been more tense and chilling. I also wish that the initial riddles had been somewhat challenging; Bruce and Chase don’t come off impressively smart and quick, the riddles come off as too obvious, like child’s play. Again, the point early on is the strange and troubling fact that anyone’s sending them at all, rather than the intricate nature of the riddles themselves, but there’s a perfect middle ground that the film could have reached where the riddles were more challenging and the impact was more palpable.

With that complaining out of the way, I’ll say this: This scene actually borders on great. There are moments in this scene that excite me still, moments that indicate that this movie will delve into Batman’s psyche in a way that’s more upfront than Burton’s movies, but a way that doesn’t completely blow the mystery about the character: Chase remarking that Bruce “understands more about obsession than [he lets] on”; Bruce looking at the Rorschach on the wall and asking Chase, “You have a thing for bats?” and Chase replying, “That’s a Rorschach, Mr. Wayne, an ink blot. I think the question would be, do you have a thing for bats?”; Bruce’s dodgy reaction after Chase takes note of the way he looks at the “dream warden.” These are compelling moments, hurt because the rest of the film doesn’t follow through on them, but moments that still work. For the critics who felt that the Tim Burton movies didn’t explore what made Bruce tick, this scene must have been an exciting promise this installment would delve deeper. (Even if those critics overlooked how much the Burton movies did explore what made him tick.)