Discussion in 'Marvel Films' started by HammerDown, Nov 28, 2018.
Well to be fair Thor has caused as much, if not more than Iron man.
I'm not sure for sure, but I think I'll go with Nat.
I think after Avengers 4 Ant-Man is going to get a major popularity boost.
Nowhere near and not as directly as Iron Man. The only thing Thor did was wage war on the Frost Giants a billion movies ago and he could've prevented Thanos from doing the snap but he had no idea Thanos could even do that.
Yes he did know that. Thor was there when Gamora said Thanos could snap his fingers and erase half the universe. He knew full well he had that power.
Well I stand corrected, how about that.
I think Thor was so overcome with rage and thirst for vengeance that he didn't go for an instant kill or think to sever Thanos' arm. He wanted to mortally wound Thanos and remind him of his promise as he died. Under the circumstances an understandable tactical error.
Um, the destruction of the New Mexico town was because of him, and so was the New York invasion. Indirectly because of him.
I would agree that the poor New Mexico town's was definitely related to Thor being there. However, I think that the NYC invasion is a bit remote - yes, Thor deposed Loki, who then fell from Bifrost and signed up with Team Thanos, but Thanos' business is going around conquering/decimating worlds ( although decimating isnt really the right word).
IMO, Loki's invasion was really part of Thanos greater plan to retrieve the stones - pissing off Thor by attacking his home away from home was a happy coincidence.
If we blame Thor for NYC do we also blame him for the aether/reality stone being stored on Nowhere because Thor made that possible by destroying Malekith ? IMO that's a bit absurd.
Who's to blame for bringing Loki to Earth? If Thor hadn't been banished and Loki didn't follow, would Earth been on his radar to conquer it? I know he went looking for the Cosmic Cube later, but would he have wanted to conquer it if Thor wouldn't have gotten attached to the planet?
Yeah, actually the three main Thor characters, Thor, Odin and Loki are all responsible in one way or another for massive destruction on Earth and their own planet. Odin for hiding the cosmic cube on earth and having the Red Skull seek it out and cause destruction, then Loki and Thanos seeking it causing more destruction. Then the whole Hela thing and the destruction of Asguard. Thor for being arrogant and caused destruction on Earth. And Loki for being Loki.
You can't blame Thor for Loki coming to earth, it's not like controlled Loki's mind and made him come. Loki and Odin are two different individuals Thor isn't to blame for anything they do.
Again, this is going too far IMO. Do you blame Odin for having a daughter who grew up to be a monster ?
Do we blame Thor for Loki joining team Thanos? Thor's banishment had the unintended consequence of bringing Loki to earth the first time, but it was Loki's decision to find new friends and come back.
This is a question of causation and remoteness. I mean we could just as easily blame Laufey for abandoning Loki as a baby, but that doesn't mean that Loki's choices weren't his own.
It's kind of blaming the guy who invented boats for the Titanic disaster. Sure, if man had never gone to sea, the Titanic would never have sunk, but thats ignores the iceberg and ship design as the more proximate causes of the tragedy.
In the same way Thanos' invasions of Earth can be blamed on Thor and Odin, but that's ignoring the more proximate cause of his quest for universal balance and the stones.
Sorry I was at work when I typed what I said, let me make it clearer, I blame those three separately for the destruction they caused earth. Each of them, in one way or another, in their own way, are to blame.
As far as Loki, ok, I see your point. Good analogy.
Thank you Sir, that's kind of you to say. While you and I disagree on this issue I respect your opinion.
Without knowing more about Thanos, and his age, and how long he'd been on his mad quest for, it's hard to say if he was on Odin's radar, in terms of being a threat. Otherwise, Odin's decison to place the tessaract on Earth does seem questionable.
I still struggle to place much blame on Thor, but Loki and Odin can certainly wear some, mostly Loki.
I voted Cap btw.
I couldn't agree more!
He did. Gamora told him point blank. Thor's "noooo" right as Thanos raised his hand validates this. He definitely knew Thanos could do that. That's Thor failing though (as everyone did), it isnt something he caused.
That said, Thor hasn't caused much issue at all
Yeah someone already reminded me.
Sorry to pick up on this comment that doesn't really have much to do with the actual topic at hand, but uh... yeah? Of course Hela ultimately chose to become the evil killing machine that she did, but to say that Odin had nothing at all to do with how she turned out is more than a bit off-base. He's the one who actually raised her, made her his executioner and taught her everything that she knows. She became exactly what he raised her to be, and when he all of a sudden had a change of heart, he threw her into a prison instead of taking responsibility for what he'd done and trying to actually reform her and teach her the error of their previous ways. Odin was a terrible father, he constantly played favourites and his solution to all of his wayward children was to wash his hands of them and basically give up and banish/imprison them.
Anyway, to get back to the actual topic, of course it's Thor. Like it would ever be anyone else.
Recently I rewatched all 3 of Cap's movies. Have to say that while Iron Man has a better origin film other the other two films in Cap's trilogy are far superior. Cap TFA was actually a lot better the second time around - and the time spent developing Steve as a little guy is really worth it and makes him a lot more relatable and likeable.
I suppose I saw a weakness in the trilogy in that it doesn't really bring an end to Cap's story - and CW while an amazing film, one of my favorite cbms, is more of an Avengers film. However, symbolically there is an ending, in that when Cap throws away his shield he's turning his back ( albeit temporarily) on being Captain America and just going back to being Steve Rogers, best friend of Bucky.
I wouldn't say caused.
Tony's irresponsible decisions - his past as an arms dealer, making extremis possible, creating Ultron - have set events in motion and people died who otherwise would've lived.
Thor hasn't caused harm in the same way, instead he's guilty of failing to stop others (especially Thanos) from doing harm.
Thor was responsible for getting himself banished but he isn't responsible for the attack on New Mexico. That's on Loki for reacting to the news he's a frost giant (something Thor never could've predicted) by seizing power and sending the Destroyer to kill Thor while he was vulnerable.
As for the Attack on New York, that one's definitely on Loki (and Thanos), not Thor. Thor had no way of predicting the brother he thought was dead would attack earth and as soon as he learned he tried to stop Loki.
Stop reaching. Tony had absolutely nothing to do with Extremis. He didn't even want to deal with Killian all those years ago when he left him on the roof.
Just because he made weapons doesn't mean he's responsible for the actions caused by Stane.
Thor getting banished did set motions off that caused destruction on Earth. Had he never been banished, Loki would have never sent the Destroyer to level the town.
1. I notice you haven't denied Tony's responsible for going behind the other Avengers' backs, playing mad scientist with an Infinity Stone, creating Ultron and barely putting any failsafes in place (e.g. not going off to a party and leaving things up set up so that the new AI had access to Jarvis, the Iron Legion and the internet).
2.Tony is partially responsible for extremis. He had a one night stand with Maya Hansen, saw that she was playing around with genetic engineering that led the subject to explode, gave her an improved formula (that later made it possible to weaponise it) and then snuck out of her bedroom and lost track of the incredibly dangerous technology he'd helped enable.
3. It's not just about the weapons Stane gave to the Ten Rings though. The guy spent decades building deadlier and deadlier weapons and earned the nickname the Merchant of Death. Arms dealing's an inherently shady business that contributes to a deadlier world and if the MCU is anything like the real world then Stark weapons would've been used by the US in Afghanistan/Iraq with collateral damage to civilian populations. Stark missiles were also used in the Sokovia Civil War - killing Scarlet Witch's parents - and Tony never denies responsibility for it.
You're blaming the victim here. Loki went mad when he learned he was adopted and tried to have Thor killed. That's on Loki and Thor had no way of predicting it.
And then when Thor - just a human at the time - saw the Destroyer was wrecking the town and endangering innocents he walked right up to the Asgardian death machine and tried to sacrifice himself.
He admits to Ultron. That's the only thing that he's done wrong.
Again, you're reaching, Extremis was created by Maya Henson, Killian and AIM. Tony gave her a formula to reduce the volality of it. He never weaponized it or made those soldiers into literal human bombs.
Yeah, the bad guys call him the merchant of death, the weapons were meant for the bad guys. The country was at war. Whatever wrong he's done, he attained for it. He stopped making weapons and started helping.
You can't say Thor has no way of predictions the consequences of his actions and try to act like Tony did.
same with Scarlett Witch, how many people, fathers, mothers, sons, did she kill when she blew up that building? Oh but let's keep bringing up Sokovia when she was a kid, which had absolutely nothing to with Tony.
Typical fanboy comments, it's ok when the popular characters cause death and destruction (Thor, Scarlett Witch). But let's demonize Iron Man every chance we get.
And, LOL, Thor is no victim here. He and his arrogance attacked the Frost Giants, and he got banished to Earth and brought the destruction with him. Had he never gotten banished here, the town would never had gotten leveled.