@Stormborn has done a great job of replying to a number of your points. I don't usually write responses of this length but I feel that your assertions require it, as they are largely unsupportable (and you ignore key facts and events in the films).
Usually, I'd just say " We must agree to disagree" but in this case I simply find myself unable to.
Given the tone of your replies, I seriously doubt that anything I write will be able to change your mind - but nonetheless I invite you to consider the logic of the following:
Don't forget all of the harm Captain America has caused.
Cap's decision to "protect" Bucky by hiding the fact that Barnes killed the Starks from Tony directly led to the destruction of the Avengers, which in turn facilitated Thanos' acquisition of the Infinity Stones.
Cap didn't tell Tony about his parents' murder because he was avoiding his own guilt.
Your statement that this lead to the destruction of the Avengers is debtable.
Your statement that this decision facilitated Thanos acquiring all 6 stones is simply unsupportable.
Those folks on this forum who know me will know that I very rarely say to anyone that they are wrong, but when it comes to your assertion that Cap facilitated Thanos' acquistion of the stones, you are demonstrably
wrong about the first 4 stones, arguably wrong about the time stone, and very likely wrong about the mind stone.
Thanos acquired the power stone by attacking Xandar - nothing to do with Cap
Thanos acquired the space stone by thrashing Thor and Hulk, killing Loki and blowing up the refugee ship - nothing to do with Cap
Thanos acquired the reality stone by killing the Collector - nothing to do with Cap
Thanos acquired the soul stone by extorting the location from Gamora via blackmail and then sacrificing her - totally Cap's fault......oh wait. I apologise for the sarcasm, but you get my point
So there's Thanos with 4 stones, and Cap not even being on the same planet for any of them.
The time stone was in New York, with Dr Strange. Did Cap, Tony or any of the Avengers know it was there ? No.
Banner was in space with Thor when Thanos attacked - he still would have been sent to Earth by a dying Heimdall. Banner warns Dr Strange who warns Tony.
Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian take on Tony, Dr Strange, Wong and Spider-Man and get away with Dr Strange and the stone.
Hulk was powerless so he's out of the equation. Thor's still in space. You're suggesting that somehow if the Avengers were still together and that Cap, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Falcon, Scarlet Witch and Vision had just happened to be there at the time, they might have prevented Maw escaping with the stone. Maybe. But that assumes they were within sufficient distance to arrive before Maw escapes
That is a possibility - but, lets say that Cap had signed the Sokovia accords, and not protected Bucky ( and, as you will see, I disagree that he is completely to blame for breaking up the Avengers - but if we act on the assumption that he was, then signing and abandoning Bucky were the only way he could have personally ensured the Avengers stayed together).
Well, now the Avengers can only act if a UN panel allows them - that might cut into their response time a bit. Also we know that the Avengers take on missions in groups ( e.g. Cap, Witch, Falcon and Widow's mission to Lagos). There's no guarantee the rest of the Avengers would be on hand or able to react in time to prevent Maw's escape.
I'm sure the UN panel would react quickly to the appearance of another alien ship over NYC, but that still might not be fast enough.
If Maw escapes then Thanos still has 4 stones and can overwhelm the Guardians, Tony, Strange and Spidey and obtain the time stone - So Thanos obtains 5 stones and Cap was not to blame for that.
Once Thanos had 5 stones he was too powerful for all the Avengers he faced at the end of the film (which includes Cap, Sam and Wanda, who were among the Avengers who broke away to join Cap).
Cap allowed himself to be deceived by Zemo, who made sure that Bucky was programmed to tell Cap about the five frozen "super-soldiers" in Siberia.
Actually, there's nothing to suggest that Bucky was programmed to tell Cap about the 5 other super soldiers - very much the opposite. The Bucky who tells Cap about the 5 appears to be the real Bucky (again, he has access to memories about Cap that only he would have).
Cap does not allow himself to be deceived - rather he misunderstands Zemo's objective. Knowing nothing about Zemo, other than he asked Bucky about the location of the Siberian base, it is a reasonable assumption that Zemo intends to gain control over them.
Cap is wrong here, no question about that. Is it a reasonable mistake ? Absolutely. Zemo is a master of intelligence/counter intelligence he plants information in order to misdirect his foes, which works on Cap, Tony and T'Challa equally well.
That caused Cap to drag Scott Lang and Hawkeye into the debacle in Germany.
Falcon recommends Scott in the first place. Hawkeye frees Wanda from confinement at the Avengers complex , which is what he means when he says "I owe a debt" (remember that her brother sacrificed himself to save Clint).
Cap asks for their help, no question. They agree to come along of their own free will. Cap explains the risks to Scott, who still agrees to come along. Tony points out that Clint has a family and should have known better - he's right. In fact it's Clint who says " In order to win this one, some of us might have to lose it." They understand the risks, but follow Cap anyway.
That misadventure leads to them being incarcerated in the Raft, separated from their families and eventually with criminal records and home detention. Wanda and Sam also ended up imprisoned and later on the run for years due to Cap's bad leadership.
Simply, no. You write as if Cap is making decisions for them. He isn't. They trust him, but ultimately they decide whether to go along or not.
You left out the part where Cap is also the one who frees them from the Raft.
Tony offered to help bring Bucky in as peacefully as possible and get him psychological help, remember, but Cap rejected that, ostensibly because Tony had Wanda on lockdown.
Again, no. While I applaud your use of "ostensibly" Tony was there to arrest Cap and Sam and Bucky - not just Bucky- Ross gave him specific orders. Cap refused to go with Tony because his objective was to get to Siberia to stop Zemo gaining control of the 5 super soliders.
But Tony was obviously protecting Wanda from Ross and international outrage over the incident in Nigeria which was Cap's fault.
Cap could have ended all the controversy over Wanda's powers by going before the public and admitting that it was his inaction that allowed Crossbones to detonate his bomb and that Wanda had actually saved more people on the ground than died in the explosion. He didn't admit his guilt. of course, leaving Wanda to twist in the wind.
Actually, the Wakandan deaths were Rumlow's fault. He chose to detonate a bomb in a crowded area. If he had not been stopped he'd have killed himself, Cap and most of the people in the market. Cap did hesitate for a couple of seconds - there are about 1.5 seconds between Rumlow saying "and you're coming with me" and him pulling out and pressing the trigger (I'm watching it now). What would have lead Cap to believe Rumlow was suicidal to begin with ? The explosives on his body aren't obvious. Was there enough time for Cap to stop Rumlow detonating the bomb vest ?
Unlikely, but maybe, maybe not. Was it a mistake ? Yes. However, the fault is on Rumlow - your argument is related to the argument that because Batman does not kill the Joker, he is responsible for the deaths the Joker causes. This is wrong, the Joker is responsible for the deaths the Joker causes.
Is Wanda at fault ? Wanda tries to stop the explosion and throw Rumlow clear of the market. She almost makes it, but doesn't. She makes a mistake too, but you are right that she probably saves many more lives in the process ( 11 Wakandans vs the market place full of people).
Cap tells Wanda he feels responsible and should have spotted the bomb vest - to ease her guilt. Who else is he meant to admit his error to, and what difference does that make ? A public admission was likely to do what ? The fear of Wanda's powers isn't linked to her inability to stop that bomb, it is linked to the fact that she has them in the first place, and appears to use them without regard for collateral damage - which is about the media putting a spin on a story. The truth is that Rumlow caused the catastrophe and Wanda's response wasn't perfect - but that doesn't sound as good.
It's not fake news, but it's a spin on the facts.
As for mistakes you will find that heroes making mistakes is a common feature of many narratives in heroic tales - without them the stories tend to be a bit less interesting.
The battle in Germany and the imprisonment Cap's team was all for naught because, of course, he had followed info planted by Zemo to lead him and Stark to Siberia.
Tony was drawn to Siberia by the same misinformation - something that was part of Zemo's MO ( and probably came from his training and experience from being a Colonel in Sokovian Intelligence who ran covert kill missions and was a master of subterfuge ).
Most of the Avengers were already jailed criminals by that point, and Zemo's revelation of Barnes' assassination of the Starks dealt the final blow to the team. Zemo achieved his goal, the destruction of the Avengers, and universe's only real hope of stopping Thanos was destroyed along with the team. Tony fought to save the Avengers because he knew a threat like Thanos was on the way, but Steve was willing to destroy the team in his obsessive desire to keep Bucky safe.
Tl;dr: If Cap had not insisted on disassembling the Avengers, the team would have been together and possibly able to stop Thanos.
First, with regards to the bold text, what you have written asserts that Cap's goal was to disassemble the Avengers. This is not correct. Cap's goals were to prevent Bucky's death and prevent the 5 super soldiers from falling into Zemo's hands. I will deal with the assertion that the Avengers could have stopped Thanos later on in this post.
Second, it's actually Zemo who's responsible for the destruction of the Avengers as he puts the entire plan to split them apart into action - in fact it's his only goal, which he says in the film, so much so that he's willing to kill himself once he succeeds.
Third , you are completely ignoring the fact that the Sokovia accords were forced on the Avengers by external agencies (the UN).
That little presentation that Ross gives them comes across a little differently when you add a little context (which is something that annoyed me during the film).
"New York" .... when you were repelling an alien invasion bent on the conquest of Earth (and the slaughter of half the population)
"Washington DC" .... when you were defeating a spy agency gone rogue and preventing the slaughter of 2 million people.
"Sokovia".... when you were preventing the extinction of the human race.
"Lagos" .... when you were preventing the release of a biological (disease) weapon in a densely populated area ( Nigeria has a population of 190 million people).
Because Cap is a soldier who spent a lot of time on battlefields he knows that battle is a fluid situation in which plans seldom go perfectly, and collateral damage occurs.
Did he make a mistake in Lagos, yes, did he create the threat in the first place. No.
Fourth, you place the responsibility for the break up of the Avengers solely on a decison by Cap.
This too is demonstrably wrong. It takes at least 2 parties to have a dispute. Cap is one party to the dispute, but you are arguing as if none of the other parties have made any decisions.
The other key decision maker is Tony whose primary motivation for signing the accords is his sense of guilt over the death of Charlie Spencer. He is also a realist who is willing to compromise - whereas Cap is more of an idealist (which is why he helped destroy the corrupted Shield) who does not compromise. I understand Tony's point of view - he wants to try and work with the UN, but is unrealistic about the limitations that the accords are going to place on the Avengers. I feel that Cap is right, because he knows that once control of the Avengers passes out of their hands serious problems are going to arise:
"What if this Panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us? "
Tony too could have chosen to refuse to place the Avengers immense power in the hands of politicians (because politicians never send military forces or start wars unnecessarily, or stand by and allow slaughter to occur......yes, that's sarcasm) but his guilt overpowers him.
Vision, Rhodes and Widow chose to sign the accords. Widow later relents and joins team Cap, Vision ends up secretly visiting Wanda and Rhodes expresses regret about signing and refuses to arrest Cap and company.
Tony also makes the decision to intern Wanda at the compound - Cap lived through a time when internment was a reality, and he's against it for very understandable reasons. To me Tony is in the wrong here.
Tony also chooses to bring an untested teenager into a battle - it's more luck than anything else (and a lot of restraint by Cap) that Peter doesn't get seriously hurt.
When Cap's group and Tony's group confront each other at the aiport, either group could have made the decision to back down - but neither does. This makes Cap partially responsible for the end of the Avengers, but then he's not the only combatant - everyone else has to take some blame.
You are also ignoring that despite the fight in Siberia, Cap sends Tony that final message that if he needs him (and his allies) he'll be there. So the Avengers aren't really totally destroyed after all, are they.
Fifth even with the Avengers mostly in one piece (remember no Hulk, no Thor), do you seriously believe they could stop Thanos ? When Thanos attacks in Wakanda he has 5 infinity stones and he effortlessly takes out everyone who stands in his way. Even with 4 Infinity stones he's way too much for the Guardians, Tony, Dr Strange and Spidey.
It's Cap, not Tony who ensures that the final battle is fought in Wakanda, because he is the one who takes Bucky to T'Challa and builds a relationship with him, such that they can take Vision to Wakanda: the most advanced and well defended spot on Earth.
If the Avengers were still togther, then Thanos' attack would have arrived wherever Vision was. If he had sent his army first, as he did in Wakanda, who knows what loss of life would have occurred.
You're right about Cap knowing Zemo (posing as the doctor) was behind everything after confronting the man outside Bucky's cell. I had forgotten that. But before that point, when Cap was trying to stop the special forces team from capturing Bucky, he didn't know that.
No. Cap is trying to stop the team from killing Bucky, and stop Bucky from killing anyone, (until Bucky tells him that he's not going to kill again).
However, he did know that Bucky had killed a lot of other people, including Tony's parents, and that Barnes was an extremely dangerous assassin on the loose. The last time Steve had seen Bucky, the latter beat him almost to death. He had no reason to believe that Barnes hadn't been following his HYDRA programming and killing others while on the run those two years, either.
You've forgotten something else. The last time Steve saw Bucky, Bucky couldn't bring himself to kill him he could not finish him off.
Remember the exchange:
Steve "You're my friend"...
Bucky "You're my mission"
Steve knows beyond a doubt that Bucky had broken free of the programming at that time because he (Steve) is still alive. The next thing Bucky does is save Steve from drowning - something he would not have done if still following his mission.
Steve has every reason to believe that Bucky is not following his Hydra programming.
Similarly, since Steve knew that Bucky had been programmed/controlled by the "doctor" that very day, he had no rational reason to go rushing off to Siberia Barnes' say-so. For all Steve knew, Zemo had ordered Barnes to tell him about the five super-soldiers to lure them into a trap. And, sure enough, that's what happened.
Steve did not know Zemo's ultimate objective - to destroy the Avengers as a cohesive unit. Neither did Bucky. Once he had the information that the Doctor was after the Siberian base's location, he made an assumption based on incomplete information that turned out to be incorrect. This was a mistake.
He knew that the Bucky he was speaking to was his friend, not the zombie killing machine, as Bucky had access to memories of their youth together ( "you used to put newspaper in your shoes.")
The team pursuing Barnes had orders to kill on sight because he was extremely dangerous and had scores of kills under his belt. Barnes was also - allegedly - still a programmed killing machine with no control of his actions, as far as the soldiers tracking him Store. Why should they approach a man like that with anything less than lethal force? None of those soldiers were super-soldiers.
So what ?
You ignore that Cap is actually there to prevent Bucky being killed and bring him in peacefully, not to assist him in escaping "...because I'm the one least likely to die trying" remember that ?
Bucky was forced to kill the Starks but he admitted to Tony that he remembered them and all of his victims. That statement runs contrary to the idea that Pierce had been able to totally wipe Barnes' memories and reset them, as does his ability to remember Steve. The writers certainly made Barnes' amnesia and level of mind control convenient for where they wanted the plot to go.
Again, so what ? Pierce was only able to suppress Bucky's memories, not remove them entirely - something the entire Jason Bourne film series is premised on.
The point that should not be lost in these details is that Steve Rogers f---ed up, used his influence with members of the team (and Scott Lang) to lead them into disaster and imprisonment based on information from Zemo that was tailored to his obsession with Barnes. Captain America's mistakes and deceptions left Earth and the universe at large vulnerable to Thanos's attack. What he did to destroy the Avengers is definitely on par with and, arguably, worse than, all of the failings attributed to Tony Stark. So Tony created Ultron (under mental influence of Wanda)? Well, Steve broke the Avengers apart, which led (indirectly and directly) to Thanos' decimation of the universe. As much as I love Cap, that is something I can't let slide.
To sum up:
I accept that Steve makes mistakes and withholds information from Tony.
Cap is not solely to blame for Scott, Clint, Wanda ( who Tony had already placed under house arrest) and Sam being imprisonmed, they went with him willingly (Scott deliberately provides the distraction that allows Cap and Bucky to escape) - and of course Cap is the one that frees them (although Clint and Scott make deals because they have families)
The Avengers' dissolution is not solely attributable to Cap's decisions, Tony, Rhodey, Natasha and Vision all make their own decisions.
Does this leave the universe vulnerable to Thanos' attack ? It has no effect on Thanos' genocidal crusade or his acquistion of 4 infinity stones.
Your use of the word "directly" is completely wrong. Thanos' actions are
directly responsible for the decimation (also the wrong word, as decimation means to reduce by one tenth) of universe, because he's the one that actually does it.
Your suggestion that Cap is responsible for indirectly causing the anhillation of half the universe has to rely on the assumption that the Avengers could have actually stopped Thanos from collecting all 6 stones ( again, they had no influence on him acquiring 4 of the stones). Had Civil War not happened the Avengers would have fought Thanos without Wakanda's support (and again no Hulk, and probably no Thor). Would they have been up to the challenge of stopping Thanos ? Well, nothing's for certain, but I suggest the answer is "no" given how easily he defeats them all at the end of IW.
Finally, are Cap's failings worse than Tony's? Both of them share blame for the end of the Avengers (which isn't really over anyway, remember Cap's message).
However, Tony's got another unrelated failing - Ultron, who actually tried to exterminate humanity. And that's on Tony. However, we mitigate that because we know that Wanda played on Tony's fears. Did she control his mind to make him create Ultron ? No. She simply built on the fears and distrust that already existed in Tony's mind.
The one thing Cap is really guilty of is not telling Tony the truth about his parents' death - just when he either figures out or acquires that knowledge isn't clear - still, he chooses to withhold the information. I feel Tony's sense of betrayal after the videotape shows the murders - and I understand Tony's rage and hurt. Did Cap deserve a bit of a beating for that ? Fair enough. However, it still wouldn't have brought Tony's parents back or negated the fact that at the time Bucky was completely under Hydra's control.
I sincerely apologize if any of the above sounds patronizing or condescending, it is unintentional - and for the use of sarcasm.
