World Best Of The Top Three

[Duskbyday]

Venom, Green Goblin or Dock Ock?

Which one is better?

 

[Venom 1988]

Its Doc Ock by the way

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Hmm, all 3 have caused Spidey alot of harm, but the one who has caused the MOST impact on his life was the Green Goblin.

 

[Arcturus]

I'm going to vote for Green Goblin, he is the greatest of the three, he is Spidey's archnemesis. I think he's had the biggest impact on Peter Parker. Doctor Octopus is also another heavy hitter in this issue.

But Venom is still my personal favorite.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Seriously, I say Ock, followed very closely by Goblin. Venom doesn't evne come close to qualifying.

 

[Duskbyday]

Ock is my fav, he is so nefarious but Goblin is Spidey's archnemesis in my mind and has caused most harm and tragedy in his life out of the three. I still prefer Ock

 

[Hobgoblin]

Goblin.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I'm going to vote for Green Goblin, he is the greatest of the three, he is Spidey's archnemesis. I think he's had the biggest impact on Peter Parker. Doctor Octopus is also another heavy hitter in this issue.

But Venom is still my personal favorite.

How so? Yes, he tried to marry Aunt May but she got over it. Yes, he beat up Black Cat, but she got better. Yes, he slapped Spidey around after their first battle but then Ock was afraid of him for a while.

 

[Jick]

Better what?
Villain? For me?
Venom. He is the greatest.
Now...better...as worst Spidey enemy? That's Goblin.

 

[Mutagen]

Venom is Spider-man's opposite. Doc Ock is the eye candy. The Green Goblin is Spider-man's Arch-Nemesis. It's always going to be that way, it's how it's been written. Anyone says different, it's considered an opinion.

 

[Arcturus]

How so? Yes, he tried to marry Aunt May but she got over it. Yes, he beat up Black Cat, but she got better. Yes, he slapped Spidey around after their first battle but then Ock was afraid of him for a while.

I'll leave it up to you to figure it out.

 

[The Joker]

How so? Yes, he tried to marry Aunt May but she got over it. Yes, he beat up Black Cat, but she got better. Yes, he slapped Spidey around after their first battle but then Ock was afraid of him for a while.

Ooooh Demo, are you asking for a war?

You're also leaving out Capt Stacy's death, putting Aunt May in hospital with a stroke, pushing Spidey to his limits in Master Planner arc, founding the Sinister Six, making Spidey a fugitive, curing Spider-Man of a life threatening illness so he could kill him himself etc. And he didn't just beat up Black Cat. He shot her and put her in hospital for open heart surgery.

Venom would give his left nut to accomplish half of this. Does the fact that Spidey and his friends managed to eventually recover from these traumas lessen the crimes Ock has committed against Spidey? Of course not.

Just like how he managed to get over Gwen and move onto MJ [in about 4-5 issues too] doesn't lessen the fact that he lost her and still misses her. All of Ock's villainous triumphs still haunt the wall crawler. Even the wonderful ***** slap:

And you ask how he's a heavy hitter? Shame on you, Demo. SHAME!

Venom is Spider-man's opposite. Doc Ock is the eye candy.

Swap those two descriptions around and you got it right. Venom is the eye candy, Ock is the Peter Parker opposite. He's got much more in common with Parker than Eddie Brock. And that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Watch the Ockumentary on the Spider-Man 2 DVD features. Even the Marvel writers call Ock the Peter Parker gone bad. The only thing Venom has in common with him is physical appearance and powers. Physical attributes. He's the eye candy villain.

Here read what Sam Raimi said about the character:

I had never read Venom in the comic books, since they came after my time. Because of that, I didn't have a natural inclination toward him. And when I read those comics, at [producer] Avi Arad's urging, I didn't understand where Venom's humanity was. I know that kids think he looks cool, and they think he's a good villain for Spider-Man. I actually didn't. What was it about Peter's own makeup that this villain represented some weaker or darker side to? Just looking like a dark version of him is not enough for me. The more I read [Venom stories], the less interested I became.

Link: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20035285_20035331_20037557,00.html

Raimi saw Venom for the weak villain he is.

 

[Hobgoblin]

And you ask how he's a heavy hitter? Shame on you, Demo. SHAME!

Shame? Whats that?

I guess I would appreciate Ock more if Peter seemed to care more about him. I dont see him getting maudlin over Capt Stacy. He forgets Ock's crimes as soon as he is locked away.

Excellent article, btw. Sam pretty much said what many of us have been saying and voiced our suspicions that he likes Peter more than Spider-Man.

Ready for some sermonizing with your popcorn? You'll get plenty in Spider-Man 3, a summer action flick that aims to enlighten. Directed and co-written by Sam Raimi (with his brother Ivan, a longtime collaborator, and Oscar-winning screenwriter Alvin Sargent), the movie weaves cautionary bromides about the evils of pride and vengeance into all its big action scenes. Just as he finished the film and prepped to launch into a marathon of round-the-world premieres, Raimi told EW about his love-hate feelings for the villain Venom, his affection for Peter Parker over Spider-Man, and how turning Parker to the dark side in this movie kept him awake at night.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Are you a little Spidey'ed out right now?
SAM RAIMI: I've been working on these films since 1999. It's refreshing not to be working on the next one — just to be focusing on the completion [and promotion] of this film.

What's different the third time around?
It's the most ambitious of the three movies, in the sense that it takes on more story and more characters.

One of those characters, Venom, is a newer villain in the comic books. He's from the '80s and '90s, as opposed to Sandman, who hails way back to issue 4 in the 1960s. Why the new baddie mixed in with such an old one?
I had never read Venom in the comic books, since they came after my time. Because of that, I didn't have a natural inclination toward him. And when I read those comics, at [producer] Avi Arad's urging, I didn't understand where Venom's humanity was. I know that kids think he looks cool, and they think he's a good villain for Spider-Man. I actually didn't. What was it about Peter's own makeup that this villain represented some weaker or darker side to? Just looking like a dark version of him is not enough for me. The more I read [Venom stories], the less interested I became. But then Avi said, ''Look, you've got to be less selfish. You've got to learn what it is these kids love about Venom.'' So I tried to open my mind up. Then Alvin developed a character that I did understand, and did appreciate.

The Spider-Man movies are often described as being romantic soap operas interrupted by occasional action. There's an implication that your heart's not as much in the big action stuff as the relationship stuff. Is that how you see it?
It's always Peter Parker that I love best. Not really Spider-Man, if you must know the truth.

You lay on the problems for Peter in this movie. Trouble with Mary Jane (Kirsten Dunst), the rivalry with Harry Osborn (James Franco) turning really violent, a black alien goo that attaches itself to Peter and turns him evil and sullen before it moves on to another host... Why such heavy weather?
As much as I love Peter, I've noticed that audiences love to watch him getting his butt kicked. They're weird that way. I've seen their faces in the theaters. The best time they have is when Peter is miserable, I think. So I do like to torment the characters, but it's because the audience likes it.

You also seem very suspicious of superhero motives in this movie.
Peter Parker is really still acting on very immature impulses. He's dressing up in this costume. He's a vigilante, making a choice that he's right and others are wrong, and he's tying them up and acting outside the law. He must have a very high opinion of himself. He holds himself above others. But in fact, he's a sinner. These people aren't so foul, and he's not so pure. The kid's out of control.

But aren't some of the things he's done in the first two pictures genuinely heroic?
What he's really acting out as an impulse is, I should have stopped that guy that killed my Uncle Ben, but I didn't. So, I'm gonna stop every next guy, and bring them down. A better lesson might be to understand those that commit wrongs, and aspire to a higher relationship with them. Which might perhaps be forgiveness.

You push Peter pretty far, having him do really hurtful things to Mary Jane and others. Does that create a risk of turning off the audience?
I was in conflict, and had many miserable nights about making this character go bad. I didn't want kids to watch Spider-Man do bad things. They come into the theater and because he's wearing this very cool outfit and has heroic music behind him, they look up to him as a hero. But then I thought, He's on the way to learning a lesson. He's got to do bad things and make mistakes to learn.

What do you mean, you had miserable nights?
Sleeplessness. Agitation. It was very hard for me, going through days and days of writing and shooting scenes where he's affected by his dark side. Tobey felt the same thing. It was hard for us, because we love the goodness within that character. [Pause] We probably should have used more restraint. [Laughs]

Well, it worked for George Lucas and Anakin Skywalker. You sound unsure about what people will make of the story.
Who knows if people will like the picture? It's so unknown. This one's really a step in a different direction. We'll see. We'll see if people want to let their hero go to the dark side.

Posted May 02, 2007 | Order Article Reprints

 

[The Joker]

I guess I would appreciate Ock more if Peter seemed to care more about him.

He does. Good example in the scan posted above. You don't have to shag Gwen Stacy and spawn a bunch of Goblin rip off characters to make Spidey pay attention

I dont see him getting maudlin over Capt Stacy.

You missed alot of stories then.

I bet you also missed that it was supposed to be the flip side of Uncle Ben's death, too. Peter did act against the villain, and his actions resulted in the loss of a father figure.

He forgets Ock's crimes as soon as he is locked away.

That's true of all the villains. But he remembers the personal crimes committed against him.

Even the OTT Ock attempting to marry May is still referenced these days.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I see the point, but he still leave me kinda cold. And I admit, I had no interest in the "Death of the Stacys" story.

I cant put my finger on it, but Otto just doesnt appeal so much to me. He lacks a certain electricity. Not crazy enough, I guess.
Yes, he's crazy but not dress up in a ridiculous costume crazy. He's so...typical.

 

[The Joker]

I see the point, but he still leave me kinda cold. And I admit, I had no interest in the "Death of the Stacys" story.

Oh Demo, you've gone down in my estimations. I thought you were a man of good taste.

Tsk tsk

I cant put my finger on it, but Otto just doesnt appeal so much to me. He lacks a certain electricity. Not crazy enough, I guess.
Yes, he's crazy but not dress up in a ridiculous costume crazy. He's so...typical.

Mmmmm, yeah trying to blow up a whole city just to prove a point is as sane as they come. Dressing in green spandex and orange boots, that's not crazy, that's the fashion. Not as trendy as purple elf boots, a nightcap, and a handbag full of pumpkin bombs, of course t:

 

[Hobgoblin]

Oh Demo, you've gone down in my estimations. I thought you were a man of good taste.

Tsk tsk



Mmmmm, yeah trying to blow up a whole city just to prove a point is as sane as they come. Dressing in green spandex and orange boots, that's not crazy, that's the fashion. Not as trendy as purple elf boots, a nightcap, and a handbag full of pumpkin bombs, of course t:

Well, thats an unfair standard to hold himself up to.

I guess its the fact that Gobby always got away from Spidey that first attracted me. Ock was sort of the typical "villain of the month" who got caught at the end of the issue. And before you say "Gobby always got away because he ran away" ( ) just remember he was up against the Hulk unexpectedly in issue 14. Otto wouldnt have fared well against Hulkster either.

And I still dont see any scans of Peter shaking in his boots around Ock, either. Yes, I'm being a git today.

 

[The Joker]

I guess its the fact that Gobby always got away from Spidey that first attracted me. Ock was sort of the typical "villain of the month" who got caught at the end of the issue. And before you say "Gobby always got away because he ran away" ( ) just remember he was up against the Hulk unexpectedly in issue 14. Otto wouldnt have fared well against Hulkster either.

Well, it's true. He did run away. Although in fairness to the early stories, Stan did it that way because he wanted to keep Goblin's identity a secret for a while.

As for the Hulk, Goblin didn't fight the Hulk in that issue

And I still dont see any scans of Peter shaking in his boots around Ock, either.

You want scans? I can post some if you like. Or do you want some reference issues?

Yes, I'm being a git today.

It's ok. I'm enjoying pwning you

 

[Hobgoblin]

Well, it's true. He did run away. Although in fairness to the early stories, Stan did it that way because he wanted to keep Goblin's identity a secret for a while.

As for the Hulk, Goblin didn't fight the Hulk in that issue

I thought your memory for details was better. Remember how Goblin drew Spidey out to Hollywood with the Enforcers? They ran into the Hulk by accident in a cave.

You want scans? I can post some if you like. Or do you want some reference issues?

Scans are fine, thank you.

It's ok. I'm enjoying pwning you

I think you need to have a rest. You're obviously delusional.

 

[The Joker]

I thought your memory for details was better. Remember how Goblin drew Spidey out to Hollywood with the Enforcers? They ran into the Hulk by accident in a cave.

I know that. But Goblin never battled him. Spidey did.

Scans are fine, thank you.

Scans from three different stories from three different decades coming right up, just to give you some variety

I think you need to have a rest. You're obviously delusional.

Hehehehe, we'll see.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I know that. But Goblin never battled him. Spidey did.

The big green guy being there was enough. Much as I hate to say it, pumpkin bombs dont mean snuff against gamma radiation.

Scans from three different stories from three different decades coming right up, just to give you some variety

Much obliged.

Hehehehe, we'll see.

I'll have my yawns ready.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I bet you also missed that it was supposed to be the flip side of Uncle Ben's death, too. Peter did act against the villain, and his actions resulted in the loss of a father figure.

Gwen's death was the flip side of Ben's death. It was played to much greater emotional effect. Who can deny that Gwen's death has had a greater toll on Peter than Capt Stacy's?

 

[The Joker]

The big green guy being there was enough. Much as I hate to say it, pumpkin bombs dont mean snuff against gamma radiation.

You're so right, it takes real talent to beat the Hulk, like the way Ock did in Revenge of the Sinister SIx

Much obliged.

Believe me, the pleasure is all mine

I'll have my yawns ready.

You do that. It'll make my victory all the more sweeter

Gwen's death was the flip side of Ben's death. It was played to much greater emotional effect. Who can deny that Gwen's death has had a greater toll on Peter than Capt Stacy's?

Because Gwen didn't die because of Peter's actions. Peter acted against Ock and Captain Stacy died because of it. In Uncle Ben's death, Peter didn't act against the bad guy, and he lost a father figure.

Yeah, obviously he felt Gwen's death more because he was in love with her. Nobody disputed that. Gwen died because Norman wanted to punish Peter.

 

[Hobgoblin]

You're so right, it takes real talent to beat the Hulk, like the way Ock did in Revenge of the Sinister Six

Adamantium tentacles would give someone an unfair advantage like that. Sort of like how Norman cleaned Otto's clock in MKSM. Just like how Gobby would have a harder time with Otto if he hadnt been doped up, Otto couldnt have beaten the Hulk without the adamantium tentacles.

Because Gwen didn't die because of Peter's actions. Peter acted against Ock and Captain Stacy died because of it. In Uncle Ben's death, Peter didn't act against the bad guy, and he lost a father figure.

Yeah, obviously he felt Gwen's death more because he was in love with her. Nobody disputed that. Gwen died because Norman wanted to punish Peter.

Peter didnt act when Gwen died?
*thwip*
*snap*
Peter: Uh oh...

 

[The Joker]

Adamantium tentacles would give someone an unfair advantage like that.

Unfair advantage? Why? Because Ock upgraded his tentacles that makes it unfair? If the Hulk was all that, he'd have beaten him anyway.

Sort of like how Norman cleaned Otto's clock in MKSM.

You're getting desperate now, mate Two things you already know about that story:

1. Ock was drugged and brain washed in that. As Spidey said "Ock is not on his true top form"
2. Norman didn't beat Ock. They both got struck by lightning and fell into the ocean.

But you knew this already

Otto couldnt have beaten the Hulk without the adamantium tentacles.

But he did have adamantium tentacles. Ock used his smarts and upgraded his tentacles and beat Hulk fair and square. He even anticipated Hulk sneak attacking him from behind.

You can't say Ock being clever enough to upgrade his tentacles is unfair. It's smart.

Peter didnt act when Gwen died?
*thwip*
*snap*
Peter: Uh oh...

Ok Demo, what's up with you today? Why are you acting silly? Again you know that's not how she died:

Goblin: "Fool! She was dead before your webbing reached her. A fall from that height would killed anyone".

Now if we're going to continue with this, at least use some proper arguements.