Best President of the 20th Century
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SuperFerret
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And yet, that has nothing to do with what photo was talking about at all.
PhotoJones
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HAHAHA....i literally laughed out loud!
you're calling ME predictable, and you're the conservative that's schooling me on "the art of war"?!
that's rich man.
seriously, though...you are a walking cliche. the conservative who is well versed in history and war strategies.
it's like you guys have it so ingrained in your head that the solution to any type of conflict is war. instead of reading books on battle techniques, why not be a little progressive?
instead of thinking about how we won world war II, you should be thinking about how it could have been avoided. same with this current war.
you're all the same. keep drinking that kool-aid.
HAHAHA....i literally laughed out loud!
you're calling ME predictable, and you're the conservative that's schooling me on "the art of war"?!
that's rich man.
seriously, though...you are a walking cliche. the conservative who is well versed in history and war strategies.
it's like you guys have it so ingrained in your head that the solution to any type of conflict is war. instead of reading books on battle techniques, why not be a little progressive?
instead of thinking about how we won world war II, you should be thinking about how it could have been avoided. same with this current war.
you're all the same. keep drinking that kool-aid.
Im sure you did.
It doesn't speak well of you.
I don't believe the solution to every conflict is war, however Im also not dumb enough to beleive its never the solution.
And somehow I don't feel bad trusting the wisdom of a 5000 year old book that been in near continuos print the entire time over some wannabe wiseman on a message baord.
BTW we could have easily avoided WW2, as long as we were willing to allow japan to rape asia, the germans to slaughter the jews, and the cripples, and the gays, and the gypsies.
Other than that they weren't all bad thoguh right?
Im sure you think Pol Pot was a nice guy too, just misunderstood right?
There are times war is necessary, there are times its an option, and there are times when you have no other choice than to bow, or stand.
Guys like you like to bow, I prefer to stand.
And uh I find it even more telling that you think being versed in history is a negative. All though it does explain how you can support many of your positions.
PhotoJones
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i don't view history as being negative.
but don't you think it's better to look towards the future and think of new ways to better mankind? instead of looking at a 5,000 year old book and learning new ways keep us stagnant?
i do.
and allowing WWII to continue on, is not what i meant, but nice job on making it seem that way.
call me a idealist, bleeding heart, liberal...whatever you want to call me, it's fine.
i'm proud of where i stand.
and you know what? if you are, too; then good for you. as long you're standing for something, right?
I find that undescribably sad.
I don't mean that as an insult, I really do.
Personally I belive that as a truly wise man once said "A man who has never found anything he will die for, doesn't have anything to live for"
I would also point out, that as one of our greatest and most colorful generals said " The point of war isn't to die for your country, its to make the other poor dumb bastard die for his"
And so I respond with a passage from one of my favorite books, "Johnny Got His Gun" by Dalton Trumbo.
Lying on your back without anything to do and anywhere to go was kind of like being on a high hill far away from noise and people. It was like being on a camping trip all by yourself. You had plenty of time to think. You had time to figure things out. Things you'd never thought of before. Things like for example going to war. You were so completely alone on your hill that noise and people didn't enter in your figuring of things at all. You figured only for yourself without considering a single little thing outside yourself. It seemed that you thought clearer and that your answers made more sense. And even if they didn't make sense it didn't matter because you weren't ever going to be able to do anything about them anyhow.
He thought here you are Joe Bonham lying like a side of beef all the rest of your life and for what? Somebody tapped you on the shoulder and said come along son we're going to war. So you went.
But why? In any other deal even like buying a car or running an errand you had the right to say what's there in it for me? Otherwise you'd be buying bad cars for too much money or running errands for fools and starving to death. It was a kind of duty you owed yourself that when anybody said come on son do this or do that you should stand up and say look mister why should I do this for who am I doing it and what am I going to get out of it in the end? But when a guy comes along and says here come with me and risk your life and maybe die or be crippled why then you've got no rights. You haven't even the right to say yes or no or I'll think it over. There are plenty of laws to protect guys' money even in war time but there's nothing on the books says a man's life's his own.
Of course a lot of guys were ashamed. Somebody said let's go out and fight for liberty and so they went and got killed without ever once thinking about liberty. And what kind of liberty were they fighting for anyway? How much liberty and whose idea of liberty? Were they fighting for the liberty of eating free ice cream cones all their lives or for the liberty of robbing anybody they pleased whenever they wanted to or what? You tell a man he can't rob and you take away some of his liberty. You've got to. What the hell does liberty mean anyhow? It's just a word like house or table or any other word. Only it's a special kind of word. A guy says house and he can point to a house to prove it. But a guy says come on let's fight for liberty and he can't show you liberty. He can't prove the thing he's talking about so how in the hell can he be telling you to fight for it?
No sir anybody who went out and got into the front line trenches to fight for liberty was a goddamn fool and the guy who got him there was a liar. Next time anybody came gabbling to him about liberty- what did he mean next time? There wasn't going to be any next time for him. But the hell with that. If there could be a next time and somebody said let's fight for liberty he would say mister my life is important. I'm not a fool and when I swap my life for liberty I've got to know in advance what liberty is and whose idea of liberty we're talking about and just how much of that liberty we're going to have. And what's more mister are you as much interested in liberty as you want me to be? And maybe too much liberty will be as bad as too little liberty and I think you're a goddamn fourflusher talking through your hat and I've already decided that I like the liberty I've got right here the liberty to walk and see and hear and talk and eat and sleep with my girl I think I like that liberty better than fighting for a lot of things we won't get and ending up without any liberty at all. Ending up dead and rotting before my life is even begun good or ending up like a side of beef. Thank you mister. You fight for liberty. Me I don't care for some.
Hell's fire guys had always been fighting for liberty. America fought a war for liberty in 1776. Lots of guys died. And in the end does America have any more liberty than Canada or Australia who didn't fight at all? Maybe so I'm not arguing I'm just asking. Can you look at a guy and say he's an American who fought for his liberty and anybody can see he's a very different guy from a Canadian who didn't? No by god you can't and that's that. So maybe a lot of guys with wives and kids died in 1776 when they didn't need to die at all. They're dead now anyway. Sure but that doesn't do any good. A guy can think of being dead a hundred years from now and he doesn't mind it. But to think of being dead tomorrow morning and to be dead forever to be nothing but dust and stink in the earth is that liberty?
They were always fighting for something the bastards and if anyone dared say the hell with fighting it's all the same each war is like the other and nobody gets any good out of it why they hollered coward. If they weren't fighting for liberty they were fighting for independence or democracy or freedom or decency or honor or their native land or something else that didn't mean anything. The war was to make the world safe for democracy for the little countries for everybody. If the war was over now then the world must be all safe for democracy. Was it? And what kind of democracy? And how much? And whose?
Then there was this freedom the little guys were always getting killed for. Was it freedom from another country? Freedom from work or disease or death? Freedom from your mother-in-law? Please mister give us a bill of sale on this freedom before we go out and get killed. Give us a bill of sale drawn up plainly so we know in advance what we're getting killed for and give us also a first mortgage on something as security so we can be sure after we've won your war that we've got the same kind of freedom we bargained for.
And take decency. Everybody said America was fighting a war for the triumph of decency. But whose idea of decency? And decency for who? Speak up and tell us what decency is. Tell us how much better a decent dead man feels that an indecent live one. Make a comparison there in facts like houses and tables. Make it in words we can understand. And don't talk about honor. The honor of a Chinese or an Englishman or an African negro or an American or a Mexican? Please all you guys who want to fight to preserve our honor let us know what the hell honor is. Is it American honor for the whole world we're fighting for? Maybe the world doesn't like it. Maybe the South Sea Islanders like their honor better.
For Christ sake give us things to fight for we can see and feel and pin down and understand. No more highfalutin words that mean nothing like native land. Motherland fatherland homeland native land. It's all the same. What the hell good to you is your native land after you're dead? Whose native land is it after you're dead? If you get killed fighting for your native land you've bought a pig in a poke. You've paid for something you'll never collect.
And when they couldn't hook the little guys into fighting for liberty or freedom or democracy or independence or decency or honor they tried the women. Look at the dirty Huns they would say look at them how they rape the beautiful French and Belgian girls. Somebody's got to stop all that raping. So come on little au' join the army and save the beautiful French and Belgian girls. So the little guy got bewildered and he signed up and in a little while a shell hit him and his life spattered out of him in red meat pulp and he was dead. Dead for another word and all the fierce old bats of the D.A.R. get out and hurrah themselves hoarse over his grave because he died for womanhood.
Now it might be that a guy would risk getting killed if his women were being raped. But if he did why he was only striking a bargain. He was simply saying that according to the way he felt at the time the safety of his women was worth more than his own life. But there wasn't anything particularly noble or heroic about it. It was a straight deal his life for something he valued more. It was more or less like any other deal a man might make. But when you change your women to all the women in the world why you begin to defend women in the bulk. To do that you have to fight in the bulk. And by that time you're fighting for a word again.
When armies begin to move and flags wave and slogans pop up watch out little guy because it's somebody else's chestnuts in the fire not yours. It's words you're fighting for and you're not making an honest deal your life for something better. You're being noble and after you're killed the thing you traded your life for won't do you any good and chances are it won't do anybody else any good either.
Maybe that's a bad way to think. There are lots of idealists around who will say have we got so low that nothing is more precious than life? Surely there are ideals worth fighting for even dying for. If not then we are worse than the beasts of the field and have sunk into barbarity. Then you say that's all right let's be barbarous just so long as we don't have war. You keep your ideals just as long as they don't cost me my life. And they say but surely life isn't as important as principle. Then you say oh no? Maybe not yours but mine is. What the hell is principle? Name it and you can have it.
You can always hear the people who are willing to sacrifice somebody else's life. They're plenty loud and they talk all the time. You can find them in churches and schools and newspapers and legislatures and congress. That's their business. They sound wonderful. Death before dishonor. This ground sanctified by blood. These men who died so gloriously.
They shall not have died in vain. Our noble dead.
Hmmmm.
But what do the dead say?
Did anybody ever come back from the dead any single one of the millions who got killed did any one of them ever come back and say by god I'm glad I'm dead because death is always better than dishonor? Did they say I'm glad I died to make the world safe for democracy? Did they say I like death better than losing liberty? Did any of them ever say it's good to think I got my guts blown out for the honor of my country? Did any of them ever say look at me I'm dead but I died for decency and that's better than being alive? Did any of them ever say here I am and I've been rotting for two years in a foreign grave but it's wonderful to die for your native land? Did any of them say hurray I died for womanhood and I'm happy see how I sing even though my mouth choked with worms?
Nobody but the dead know whether all these things people talk about are worth dying for or not. And the dead can't talk. So the words about noble deaths and sacred blood and honor and such are all put into dead lips by grave robbers and fakes who have no right to speak for the dead. If a man says death before dishonor he is either a fool or a liar because he doesn't know what death is. He isn't able to judge. He only knows about living. He doesn't know anything about dying. If he is a fool and believes in death before dishonor let him go ahead and die. But all the little guys who are too busy to fight should be left alone. And all the guys who say death before dishonor is pure bull the important thing is life before death they should be left alone too. Because the guys who say life isn't worth living without some principle so important you're willing to die for it they are all nuts. And the guys who say you'll see there'll come a time you can't escape you're going to have to fight and die because it'll mean your very life why they are also nuts. They are talking like fools. They are saying that two and two make nothing. They are saying that a man will have to die in order to protect his life. If you agree to fight you agree to die. Now if you die to protect your life you aren't alive anyhow so how is there any sense in a thing like that? A man doesn't say I will starve myself to death to keep from starving. He doesn't say I will spend all my money in order to save my money. He doesn't say I will burn my house down in order to keep it from burning. Why then should he be willing to die for the privilege of living There ought to be at least as much common sense about living and dying as there is about going to the grocery store and buying a loaf of bread.
And all the guys who died all the five million or seven million or ten million who went out and died to make the world safe for democracy to make the world safe for words without meaning how did they feel about it just before they died? How did they feel as they watched their blood pump out into the mud? How did they feel when the gas hit their lungs and began eating them all away? How did they feel as they lay crazed in hospitals and looked death straight in the face and saw him come and take them? I! the thing they were fighting for was important enough to die for then it was also important enough for them to be thinking about it in the last minutes of their lives. That stood to reason. Life is awfully important so if you've given it away you'd ought to think with all your mind in the last moments of your life about the thing you traded it for. So did all those kids die thinking of democracy and freedom and liberty and honor and the safety of the home and the stars and stripes forever?
You're goddamn right they didn't.
They died crying in their minds like little babies. They forgot the thing they were fighting for the things they were dying for. They thought about things a man can understand. They died yearning for the face of a friend. They died whimpering for the voice of a mother a father a wife a child They died with their hearts sick for one more look at the place where they were born please god just one more look. They died moaning and sighing for life. They knew what was important They knew that life was everything and they died with screams and sobs. They died with only one thought in the minds and that was I want to live I want to live I want to live.
He ought to know.
He was the nearest thing to a dead man on earth.
He was a dead man with a mind that could still think. He knew all the answers that the dead knew and couldn't think about. He could speak for the dead because he was one of them. He was the first of all the soldiers who had died since the beginning of time who still had a brain left to think with. Nobody could dispute with him. Nobody could prove him wrong. Because nobody knew but he.
He could tell all these high-talking murdering sonsof*****es who screamed for blood just how wrong they were. He could tell them mister there's nothing worth dying for I know because I'm dead.
There's no word worth your life. I would rather work in a coal mine deep under the earth and never see sunlight and eat crusts and water and work twenty hours a day. I would rather do that than be dead. I would trade democracy for life. I would trade independence and honor and freedom and decency for life. I will give you all these things and you give me the power to walk and see and hear and breathe the air and taste my food. You take the words. Give me back my life. I'm not asking for a happy life now. I'm not asking for a decent life or an honorable life or a free life. I'm beyond that. I'm dead so I'm simply asking for life. To live. To feel. To be something that moves over the ground and isn't dead. I know what death is and all you people who talk about dying for words don't even know what life is.
There's nothing noble about dying. Not even if you die for honor. Not even if you die the greatest hero the world ever saw. Not even if you're so great your name will never be forgotten and who's that great? The most important thing is your life little guys. You're worth nothing dead except for speeches. Don't let them kid you any more. Pay no attention when they tap you on the shoulder and say come along we've got to fight for liberty or whatever their word is there's always a word.
Just say mister I'm sorry I got no time to die I'm too busy and then turn and run like hell. If they say coward why don't pay any attention because it's your job to live not to die. If they talk about dying for principles that are bigger than life you say mister you're a liar Nothing is bigger than life There's nothing noble in death. What s noble about lying in the ground and rotting. What's noble about never seeing the sunshine again? What's noble about having your legs and arms blown off? What's noble about being an idiot? What's noble about being blind and deaf and dumb? What's noble about being dead. Because when you're dead mister it's all over. It's the end. You're less than a dog less than a rat less than a bee or an ant less than a white maggot crawling around on a dungheap. You're dead mister and you died for nothing.
You're dead mister. Dead.
Addnedum with all due respect, I cant even describe how much I pity you. Maybe you really think thats what life is, and maybe you agree that whats liberty is. I know better. I've seen what happens when people don't have it, I've seen what it does to thier characters, to thier spirits, and for lack of a better word, to thier souls. I've seen men and women afraid to speak within thier own homes even 20 years after the men they fear were dead, because the habit of a lifetime is hard to break. I've seen women with dead eyes and dead hearts, who fear the thought of making thier own choices, because they have never had to. I've walked through countries ruined by small men with great power, and seen entire generations of a people who have no spirit. They have thier lives, and they have some hope thier children will be different, but thier own sprirts are dead.
I would ratehr die a thousand times that see my children live in a world like they did. And I feel sorry for you that you think so little of how lucky you are, to be able to sit on the internet and post words from a book of fiction, and to look at this as a dry intellectual matter, becasue you have never had to to see it, or experience it first hand.
I suggerst you do some traveling, and see just how damn lucky you are to be able to sit there in you cycnicism and to think thats theres nothing worth dying for. I suggest you take a tour of Auschwitz, and of Darfur, I suggest you live in a country which has been under the thumb of a regime that takes mens liberty, and speak to the men who grew up without, and ask them if its "an empty bill of sale"
I pity you, all the more so becasue you don't have any clue just how damn lucky you are to have the luxury of being that damn ignorant.
I also wonder why you would have a quote by jefferson in your sig, when he would look upon you as the lowest of the low for what you seem to belive.
I would ratehr die a thousand times that see my children live in a world like they did. And I feel sorry for you that you think so little of how lucky you are, to be able to sit on the internet and post words from a book of fiction, and to look at this as a dry intellectual matter, becasue you have never had to to see it, or experience it first hand.
I suggerst you do some traveling, and see just how damn lucky you are to be able to sit there in you cycnicism and to think thats theres nothing worth dying for. I suggest you take a tour of Auschwitz, and of Darfur, I suggest you live in a country which has been under the thumb of a regime that takes mens liberty, and speak to the men who grew up without, and ask them if its "an empty bill of sale"
I pity you, all the more so becasue you don't have any clue just how damn lucky you are to have the luxury of being that damn ignorant.
I also wonder why you would have a quote by jefferson in your sig, when he would look upon you as the lowest of the low for what you seem to belive.
PhotoJones
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ouch.
Like I said addendum, Count yourself lucky that you can be that ignorant.
And that was lucky for you. Most of the places in this world you could have been born would have made you face that choice in life, not just in thought. Many of the places in the world you could have been born would have taught you, first hand, just how ignorant you are.
PhotoJones
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i can think of at least 10 countries i'd have rather been born in than this one.
Mr Sparkle
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PhotoJones
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MMMMMM! Terroristy!
but he will never realize this. that's what's really scary.
And I can think of at least 100 you wouldn't have been.
The rest of the world aint a very nice place. Never has been. Most of its a sad, brutal, barbaric, murderous place.
I've wacthed boys and girls sold in slave markets for less than I spend on a pack of ciggarettes. I've seen tenagers who were intentionally criplled so they could make more money begging for thier masters. I've seen woemn who were raped because thier husbands protested the government, and children left without parents becasue they had the audacity to ask for more than thier ration of milk. I've met members of tribes that no longer exist becasue they were the wrong color, or religon, or beacuse someone got bored. I've met children who were drafted at the age of 8, and men who have watched thier wives killed because they made a joke.
You can say whatever you want about this nation, thats a right men better than me have died to protect, and you can complain all you want about the politics of the moment, or the idiocy of our leaders. The fact is we have it better than 75% or more of the wolrds population. Here we argue about whether abortion should be legal to those who want it, try living in a country where you get one whether you want it or not. Here we ***** that our vote doesn't matter, try travelling to a place where you're told who to vote for, and executed if you don't. We complain that people don't make a living wage, try being a man who works because he will be killed if he don't. In this country we argue about whether or not gays should be allowed to marry, try living where homosexuality is a capital offense. We complain about women being opressed, true opression is when a womans husband owns her as he does his cattle, and values her even less.
Thats why I cant stand it when people who are as spoiled and as god damned lucky as we are ***** and moan incessatnly about every little inequity, I've seen real inequity, and it doesn't exist in America.
None of you who grew up here has ever faced true opression, you've never been truly hungry, even our homelss don't know what its like to be truly poor. You've never hidden in a hole hoping the rape squads would ride by, or begged for your grandmothers life as 13 year old kids who have been irrevocably twisted by men more evil than you can comprehend have tortured and killed her. You never had to wacth you neighborhood bruned to the ground as the men were killed, the women raped and killd, and the children forcibly drafted into the same force that left them orphans.
You are lucky that you have the luxury to call this jingoism, that you have the freedom and the safety to dismiss what I'm saying. And I hope to god you will never know just how lucky you really are.
PhotoJones
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1. canada
2. united kingdom
3. france
4. japan
5. australia
6. new zealand
7. germany
8. switzerland
9. sweden
10. iceland
do you want more?
1. canada
2. united kingdom
3. france
4. japan
5. australia
6. new zealand
7. germany
8. switzerland
9. sweden
10. iceland
do you want more?
Its pretty sad how far you missed the point by.
And how ignorant you are even of the countries you mention.
In japan for example there is no "innocent untill proven guilty", its actually guilty untill proven innocent. Less than 10% of those charged ever are.
France has a similar system, no jury trials, just a panel of judges, and a presumption of guilt.
Germany, Sweden, and iceland all have total tax liabilities in excess of 75 cents on the dollar.
Germany aint too bad, unless you want to be able to get a job, or defend yourself from thugs. Same with the UK. Not to mention more cameras per sqaure mile than anywhere int he world, a police force that can lock you up for 30 (or is it 60 now) days without a trial, or access to a lawyer on the suspicion that you engaged in terrorist activities, or abetted them.
Im done here jones, you have no idea what you're talking about, and don't even have the sense to try and find out. You can keep thinking there are utopias somewhere out there, or that theres a nation that is truly better than ours. But there isn't. Some are about the same, most are much much worse. Some have different phiolosophies you may think are better,but I doubt if you lived there you'd agree. Like I said before, I just hope you never have to find out just how truly ignorant you are. Somehow I don't think you have the strength to survive it if you did.
PhotoJones
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the things that i value and think are important are all reflected in those countries.
and you know the kicker? they're not hated by the rest of world like we are. i'm sure foriegn opinion is not going to something you hold in a high regard, but i think it speaks volumes.
Mr Sparkle
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I like how mwm1331 always tries to sound worldy.
I specifically liked this:
"You've never hidden in a hole hoping the rape squads would ride by, or begged for your grandmothers life as 13 year old kids who have been irrevocably twisted by men more evil than you can comprehend have tortured and killed her"
I'm guessing he has.
and I also love how when he is unable to badger someone into agreeing with him he is always done with people.
like the Queen of England or something.
"away with ye!"
again. I can sput random facts about countires doesn't mean that the quality of life in those countries is Bellow the US.
infact, last I checked ,the US isn't even #1 when it comes to quality of life in the world anymore.
so.
yeah.
I specifically liked this:
"You've never hidden in a hole hoping the rape squads would ride by, or begged for your grandmothers life as 13 year old kids who have been irrevocably twisted by men more evil than you can comprehend have tortured and killed her"
I'm guessing he has.
and I also love how when he is unable to badger someone into agreeing with him he is always done with people.
like the Queen of England or something.
"away with ye!"
again. I can sput random facts about countires doesn't mean that the quality of life in those countries is Bellow the US.
infact, last I checked ,the US isn't even #1 when it comes to quality of life in the world anymore.
so.
yeah.
PhotoJones
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I like how mwm1331 always tries to sound worldy.
I specifically liked this:
"You've never hidden in a hole hoping the rape squads would ride by, or begged for your grandmothers life as 13 year old kids who have been irrevocably twisted by men more evil than you can comprehend have tortured and killed her"
I'm guessing he has.
and I also love how when he is unable to badger someone into agreeing with him he is always done with people.
like the Queen of England or something.
"away with ye!"
again. I can sput random facts about countires doesn't mean that the quality of life in those countries is Bellow the US.
infact, last I checked ,the US isn't even #1 when it comes to quality of life in the world anymore.
so.
yeah.
HAHAHA!
that's my favorite post of the day.
So because my parents and the parents of some others were on "American soil" when we popped out of our mothers means that we aren't able to disagree with certain policies and/or actions done by our government, or even disagree with a war?
Bull****.
t:
You forgot that he gives a dollar a day to the "feed-the-children" organization, so he knows all about life in third world countries. He read the newsletter they send him each month.
"This is N'Guadley. He is only 5 years old, and he's hungry. Every day he wakes up at 5:30 in the morning with a thrashing, goes off to the fields to work 35 hours a day, and arrives back home to eat only a handful of dirt and then back to sleep at 5:00 in the morning to start it over again."
Bull****.
I like how mwm1331 always tries to sound worldy.
I specifically liked this:
"You've never hidden in a hole hoping the rape squads would ride by, or begged for your grandmothers life as 13 year old kids who have been irrevocably twisted by men more evil than you can comprehend have tortured and killed her"
I'm guessing he has.
and I also love how when he is unable to badger someone into agreeing with him he is always done with people.
like the Queen of England or something.
"away with ye!"
again. I can sput random facts about countires doesn't mean that the quality of life in those countries is Bellow the US.
infact, last I checked ,the US isn't even #1 when it comes to quality of life in the world anymore.
so.
yeah.
t:You forgot that he gives a dollar a day to the "feed-the-children" organization, so he knows all about life in third world countries. He read the newsletter they send him each month.
"This is N'Guadley. He is only 5 years old, and he's hungry. Every day he wakes up at 5:30 in the morning with a thrashing, goes off to the fields to work 35 hours a day, and arrives back home to eat only a handful of dirt and then back to sleep at 5:00 in the morning to start it over again."
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