World Breaking down Spider-villains

[Chris Wallace]

In this thread I'd like to discuss specific traits that we like about Spidey's foes, from Green Goblin to Demogoblin & beyond.

 

[Ziggyman]

I like how both Carnage and Venom are flipping badass!

 

[Hobgoblin]

Excellent idea, Chris. From the Green Goblin Appreciation Thread:

Ok, I just gotta geek out over how much I love the Goblin.

He's perfect. The psychology. The dynamic between Norman and Harry. There is a reason he's the Green Goblin. Green is the color of greed, jealousy. Norman's ambition was his strength and his weakness. He was already rich, but he wanted more. He was willing to make a deal with the devil by joining with the mobs by killing an innocent man.

His motivation wasnt a "typical super villain's" motivation: it was all psychological. His father had lost a fortune and Norman became obsessed with regaining wealth and power. He tried to instill the necessary ruthlessness into Harry, but it just didnt take with the kid. Norman's thirst for power made him a monster in how he treated others and especially his own son. Now thats human drama.

Harry of course wanted to please his distant father and he became a monster to do so, just like Norman. Again, Green. Jealousy. Much as he loved Peter, he hated Spider-Man even more. This was a trauma to Peter as well. Just read the first few pages of "Shrieking." Peter's anguish over Harry's death and betrayal to please his bastard of a father is palpable. And the Legacy of the Goblin didnt just taint the Parkers, it destroyed the Osborn family. Liz started drinking and Harry physically took out his anger on Norman Jr, just like Norman Sr took out his anger on Harry by beating the snot out of him. Thats how you tell a good story: real, human consequences,not deals with the devil.

The Osborns could have been plenty impressive had they never put on the costume. Perhaps some people are turned off by the Goblin costume. I love it. The gothic, Halloween feel really gets me. Norman was a little off his rocker when he came up with the idea to dress up that way, and thats why I love it. He was willing to go all out. He embraced the darkness in himself. He wasnt an accident like Doc Ock or Venom. Yes, the Goblin Formula was an accident, but he made a conscious decision to become the Goblin. In a way, I think of him as a modern day Dracula:a rich lord (lets face it, a CEO of a major chemical business is a modern day medieval lord) with a dark side. And how regal is it to come screaming out of the sky hurling flaming pumpkins on a giant bat glider? Corny to some, damned beautiful to me.

He may be crazy, but the man is a genius. Yes, he's a scientist and a businessman but he's a brilliant tactician as well. He is always two steps ahead of Spider-Man. Spidey thinks he's got Norman right where he wants him and Gobby is already laughing at how he fell into the plan so well. He torments Peter. Period.

Who else could have masterminded the destruction of his enemy's life from a halfway around the world? Venom? Please. He's all brute force. Subtle as a bulldozer. He's Norman without the brains, the attention to details. Doc Ock? Certainly. But he isnt interested in Spider-Man. He wants the bug out of his way, but furthering his name in science (granted, at any cost) is his obsession. Where is the sadism? The personal aspect? The fun? Norman torments Peter every way he can. He's a cat playing with a mouse.Kill your girlfriend right in front of you? Goblin. Torment your best friend while making him kiss your ass? Goblin. Murder your enemy's newborn daughter as "payback" for your son's death (which, face it, you practically drove him to)? Goblin again.

Maybe some see Norman's cycle of tormenting Peter (and Harry) to be tedious, but for me, its what makes the character. As far as I'm concerned its modern Shakespeare.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ Very Cool! I absoloutely love how interesting each Spidey Villian is. From Norman osborn's double personality and basically being a maniac to Eddie Brock losing everything, becoming Venom, losing the Symbiote, and gets put in a hospital. Doc Ock is also very interesting because of so many things such as his menacing attitude and his smart brain. He knows when to strike and when not to strike. Hell, every Spidey Villian is interesting. (Not counting Hypno-Hustler, etc, lol.)

 

[Chris Wallace]

THere are many things I like about the Goblin. He and Ock are like flipsides of Spidey. Like him, they are freak products of experiments gone awry. But while Spidey sees his power as a burden, Ock & GG reel in their newfound power, seeing only the possibilities that it brings.

 

[Jick]

good idea.
for now, the three main symbiotes:

Venom - is the perfect nemesis of Spider-Man. not only his dark side, but also stronger, faster...superior in almost every way. just loses in brain power. but when brain power fails, brute force prevails. he is a stalker, but a good one. he doesn't trigger the Spidey sense. and as a matter of fact, he defeated Spidey many times. but "who villain didn't?", you might ask.
with him is different, Spidey not only was defeated, as he many times ran away from Venom, tried to hide or went asking for help. he is scary of Venom. and we can see, after all of this, all of his fights, that Venom is one of his greatest foes. and, besides this, I must say...he is the "coolest". but what makes him that cool, differently from the other Spidey villains?
his costume (who wouldn't **** in the pants if you see a white smile, big white eyes and a white creepy symbol in the dark of an alley? it's like seeing an alien), his dark sense of humor and his superiority.
Venom didn't get one of the best motives to go after Spidey, but this will stop him from being a great villain? no. look at Dr. Doom, for instance. Reed warned him to stop his experiments because it could be dangerous. but Doom heard? no. Doom stoped? no. Doom suffered because of his own ego? yes. and who he blames for his misfortunes? Reed. what the hell did Reed has to do with it? nothing. it's the opposite, Reed tried to help. a lame reason to become a villain, but he is today one of the greatest villains ever.
a villain can become great...despite it's origins and motives. those who say Venom is a waste of character because of his motives are totally close minded.


Carnage - besides being superior to Spidey and Venom? he is that evil force that can't be stoped. Carnage's bad reputation comes from his bad stories, and there are more bad than good. but he is an interesting character who was lead to the wrong direction. when a writer tried to put him on track again, came others smashing him to the ground, writing bad stories such as Maximum Carnage. he suffered the same problem of Venom - he was overused, and in a bad way, that is worse. but what's interesting about him is that he represents all the evil in the world. he is that guy in the line that you crosses because you were in a hurry. he is the woman that lost her child to thugs and wants blind revenge. he is the betrayed man. he is that person that you hurt, without caring, to fulfill your objectives. he is all the depression, the hate, the savagery, the revenge...all the bad in the world merged into one. but the difference is that Cletus has the power of a God. he received the symbiote, so he can do more than any other simple serial killer. all the villain were once good or just didn't want to hurt people. but Carnage was always bad. bad to the bone. he is that villain who won't become a good guy or think twice before killing you. he won't bargain, he won't make agreements, exchanges and demands like the other villains do. this is what makes him the most dangerous Spidey villain. not the best, but the most dangerous. he will show you his vision of hell, but first will scare you to death.
that being sais, can't we give a chance to him? can't Spidey have a villain like that? or must all of his villains be doctors or intelligent guys who turn bad?

 

[Chris Wallace]

HOnestly, I'm not a big fan of Venom. I used to be, but I've gotten bored with him, & the more I saw of him over the years, the less interesting he became. And I've come to find him very unoriginal.
Warped mirror image of the hero? We've seen that before.

Villain that can mimic Spidey's powers and can negate spider-sense?

Villain who can easily counter all of Spidey's attacks?

Villain who knows everything about Spidey & can come at him through his loved ones? Not only was this done before, but far more effectively than any of Venom's scare tactics.

Which is another thing; in all his years, Venom has never really accomplished anything. Plus, he contradicts himself at every turn, & nothing about him makes sense. I think they should have played up the "jilted lover" aspect of the symbiote more; had her make more attempts to force Parker to take her back. I think that would've been more interesting than the route they went, trying to make Venom a hero. What really kills me is Spidey's illogical fear of Venom. He's never backed down from a fight with anyone, but he runs & hides from Venom. This same guy who took down Firelord with his bare hands. Who got his @$$ handed to him by Doc Ock, then whupped him in a rematch. This man who, despite being hopelessly outmatched, found a way to take down JUGGERNAUT-is gonna cower like a p****y at the sight of a guy who he can take out by banging two trashcan lids together?
As for Carnage-a by-product of all the Venom hype. Again, I've seen his schtick before, & it was done better the first time.

And Toxin-being pretty much a hero-doesn't even have a place in this thread.

 

[Arcturus]

In this thread I'd like to discuss specific traits that we like about Spidey's foes, from Green Goblin to Demogoblin & beyond.

Venom is my favorite villain from the Spider-Man mythos, and here's why.

Just so I don't have to type it all out again.

But Green Goblin & Doctor Octopus are excellent, top notch, central characters. Norman Osborn, what can you say that hasn't been said? He's so evil and menacing, and manipulative, the things he's put Parker through. Doc Ock is such a smug, arrogant genius that you must bow in his presence. Also, I've always had a place for Electro, I find him very interesting.

 

[BizarroAids]

Ok, I'll go against the others and pick a not commonly used villian.

Electro.

Here you have this normal average dude, that gets electricuted at work. So what does he do?? Becomes a villian. Typical right? But, one of the more interesting things that happended to him in the 80s I believe and that was somewhat touched upon in the last few years, especially New Avengers. It's his ability to pretend to be a hard ass.

Yeah, he's got awesome powers. But, there were times, I guess to make the character more relatable, that he would wuss out. Sure, when he fights Spidey, he knows he got the upper hand. But when villians like Ock, have confronted him, or Kraven, he would literally chicken out and try to talk his way out.

For some reason he thinks he can take out Spidey, but when it all boils down to it, he's really not the best fighter and won't stand up to anyone else.

I like this about him, because back then it made him funny. It showed how vulnerable he was, and also that he wasn't always one of the top choices when it came to villians going to him for plans.

 

[Jick]

Warped mirror image of the hero? We've seen that before.
Villain that can mimic Spidey's powers and can negate spider-sense?
Villain who can easily counter all of Spidey's attacks?
Villain who knows everything about Spidey & can come at him through his loved ones? Not only was this done before, but far more effectively than any of Venom's scare tactics.

true, but Venom is all of that merged into one, man. that's why he's the best for me. but I can understand why you don't like him.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I think I'd like him more had he not been so overused in the 90's.
I enjoy the powers of the likes of Electro & Sandman. THey present a seemingly insurmountable obstace & really work Spidey. I like the animal themes of Vulture, Rhino & Lizard-as they are superior creatures to the spider. This makes you actually worry about SPidey in a fight.

 

[Arcturus]

I think the Lizard is also another great villain. He developed a serum to grow his lost arm back, but there was a price to pay.

 

[Chris Wallace]

See, to me the best villains are those that are similar in some way to the hero. 2/3 of the original Sinister Six are the freak results of experiments gone awry. One of the remaining 2 is a gifted scientist. It's like Spidey looks at them & sees where, but by the grage of God, etc.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Well, Demogoblin was a cool looking villain but thats about it. He could have been interesting as a Moon Knight or Spawn villain.

 

[Chris Wallace]

You forget Ghost Rider. Maybe Blade.

 

[Hobgoblin]

You forget Ghost Rider. Maybe Blade.

Any "magic" themed hero would have been fine, but throwing him against Spidey was a giant WTF.

 

[UA-Archangel]

If you want to break them down, use hydrochloric acid.

 

[Jick]

I made a review some time ago from one of the best Rhino issues, and I also say what I think about this character, so I thought I'd post here:

I read The Agony of Defeat last night. what an amazing issue.
it shows that Rhino is such a formidable foe.
Spidey was slapped by Ock? Spidey ran away from Venom? pff. this doesn't compare with the humiliation that he've been through in this issue. the entire city was mocking him for his defeat. Spidey was humiliated, defeated in what must be one of his biggest loss. like Spidey said, "without a question, he's a prime cut above the other grow man playing dressed-up, that's for sure. oh, there's no doubt that we've met many times before. I even came out victorious on some of those occasions. but in all honesty...I was lucky".
and Spidey's condition?
"my shoulder feels like a piece of dental floss. leg's gimpy. vision's blurry. and I can't feel my face. yep, I'd say it's official: I'm getting my butt handed to me out here."
"physically, I shouldn't even be able to stand up straight like this. but I'm so mentally wounded that any bodily pain I ought to be in has been rendered numb. for every bruise in my face, there are ten times as many on my self-esteem, and each of those stings considerably more."
"for the first time in years, I feel helpless. disabled. inoperative. broken. incomplete. lost."

and why is this issue so good?
besides showing that one of the more underestimated villains is formidable and one of the biggest (now my third favorite), Peter remembers from his time in college, when Flash and his friends used to bully Peter, to spank him and mock him. and Peter was helpless and defenseless. he thought this version of Peter Parker, the nerd, awkward and weak one had died a long time ago. but it's still part of who he is. and like he said, "...no costume, super-powers or mask will ever be able to erase him". "the best I can hope to do is try to keep him from re-emerging, and the way I see it, there's only on way to accomplish that. keep on trudging ahead, and if you should happen to fall at some point along the way, Pete-- get up, dust yourself off. don't look back...and try even harder the next go 'round."
it teaches that, whenever we lost, whenever we suffer from a defeat, the best we can do is prepare to battle again, to show how strong you are and how stronger and more capacitated you can be. never lower the head. always raise it and show everybody that you're a fighter and won't give up of your goals and your battles.

 

[BizarroAids]

Any "magic" themed hero would have been fine, but throwing him against Spidey was a giant WTF.

QFT!!!

Oh, and congrats on making mod. You deserve it.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I love the fact that Spidey Villians are mainly caused by freak accidents. That's one of the things that makes them so interesting.

 

[The Joker]

Doctor Octopus

If you think Spider-Man is the geek turned hero, then Octavius is the geek turned villain. But it goes alot deeper than that. This can make for the best kind of villain. So many similarites between protagonist and antagonist.
Peter Parker was a lonely science geek with big round glasses, who was bullied in school, had no real friends, lost his parents at a young age, and was unpopular with girls. He grew up in middle class New York, and was raised with love by his Aunt and Uncle. Otto Octavius was also a lonely science geek with big round glasses, who was bullied, without any friends, unpopular with girls, lost a parent when he was young, grew up in middle class New York, but he did not have a loving upbringing. His father chastised him for being weak, and constantly told him a man was measured by his strength and power. Kind of like the anti-thesis of 'With great power comes great responsibility'. Otto's mother was an overbearing woman, who told him he was genius and better than everyone around him.

Both of them were endowed with their powers thru the very science they love. But while Peter chose to use his great power with great responsibility, thanks to his Uncle's influence and tragic death. Octavius went to the other extreme, and used his power for his own selfish gain, because he believed he was better and above everyone else. He felt no responsibility to anyone but himself. The world was there to serve him. Again, this was due to his upbringing, much like how Peter turned out to be the kind of person he was because of his.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ Very well said!

 

[Hobgoblin]

QFT!!!

Oh, and congrats on making mod. You deserve it.

Ok, I'm a moron. Whats QFT?

And thank you. Its a jungle out there, man. People are nuts.

JokerBoth of them were endowed with their powers thru the very science they love. But while Peter chose to use his great power with great responsibility, thanks to his Uncle's influence and tragic death. Octavius went to the other extreme, and used his power for his own selfish gain, because he believed he was better and above everyone else. He felt no responsibility to anyone but himself. The world was there to serve him. Again, this was due to his upbringing, much like how Peter turned out to be the kind of person he was because of his.

Otto Octavius. The original Anti-Spider-Man.

 

[Venom 1988]

Ok, I'm a moron. Whats QFT?

Quote For the Truth

 

[Hobgoblin]

Quote For the Truth

Gotcha.

I've become more of a Mysterio fan over the years. He really is an under appreciated foe. People look at the costume (which, yes, we all know about the costume) and write him off. In reality, Mysterio is the psychological threat to Spider-Man.

The mind gives us preconceived notions, notions which can trip us up. We mistake what we see and jump to conclusions. Quentin Beck realized this. He is, IMO, Spider-Man's answer to the Scarecrow. Maybe he doesnt play with your fears, but he can muck with your head. Yes, the spider sense can alert Peter to an illusion, but Beck created the spider sense dulling gas for that little problem. Spider sense nullifying gas + 100% convincing illusions = big problem.