Breaking News: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead! - Part 3

[StorminNorman]

Just for argument's sake (and not necessarily my own view point), doesn't outing the Taliban involve setting into place a functioning democracy with the capacity to prevent the Taliban from returning to power after we leave?

No. You could have easily allowed non-Taliban warlords to rule the country as they see fit. Forcing a democracy on Afganistan was social engineering and an extention of the same failed foreign policy we have had since Wilson. Democray is not in itself a good and it is not proper for every society and culture.

 

[SuperFerret]

I still feel dirty...

Why? George W. Bush was a man. He did some things wrong, he did some things right, just like any one else. Demonizing or beatifying someone never gets the whole picture.

 

[SuperFerret]

No. You could have easily allowed non-Taliban warlords to rule the country as they see fit. Forcing a democracy on Afganistan was social engineering and an extention of the same failed foreign policy we have had since Wilson. Democray is not in itself a good and it is not proper for every society and culture.

This illustrates the point I was making to Marx well.

StorminNorman and I agree on something. Funny how that works.

 

[StorminNorman]

Agreed. I mean hell, how can one feel "dirty" about defending Bush and then have no problem defending Obama? In terms of foreign policy, Obama and Bush are essentially the same. Bush got involved in Iraq while engaged in Afghanistan - Obama got involved in Libya while engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But at least Obama is anti-Gitmo.

 

[StorminNorman]

That's two in a role!

 

[Marx]

I think some are missing the point...oh well.

 

[SuperFerret]

The point is that you disagree with Bush on somethings and thus feel bad about agreeing with him, or defending his position at least, when discussing someone else.

It's feelings like that that make me feel foolish for once wishing I could figure out "what" my feelings on politics were.

 

[DACrowe]

DRONE ATTACK IN PAKISTAN KILLS AT LEAST 8 "MILITANTS" IN HOUSE DURING ANTI-AMERICAN PROTESTS
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/06/us-binladen-pakistan-protest-idUSTRE74516H20110506

It's the first drone attack in Pakistan since April 22 and more intriguingly since Osama bin Laden's death on May 1. Is this related to the treasure trove of intel we discovered in bin Laden's house? Were these members of al-Qaeda leadership like the two who got a missile to the car in Yemen yesterday? I hope so. Time will tell.

 

[Kelly]

*sighs*...reaping the benefits of the intel. Feels good......

 

[DACrowe]

No. You could have easily allowed non-Taliban warlords to rule the country as they see fit. Forcing a democracy on Afganistan was social engineering and an extention of the same failed foreign policy we have had since Wilson. Democray is not in itself a good and it is not proper for every society and culture.

Perhaps democracy is the wrong word (after all Karzai is not the image of democratically elected, is he?). But a central government that has the organizational ability to starve off an insurgency of terrorism perpetrated by the Taliban and its supporters in theory would be necessary. War lords and tribal states making up Afghanistan is dysfunctional and easy for the Taliban to slowly take over (they did it once before). However, it seems clear the US picked the wrong partner in Karzai almost a decade ago and wasted countless resources and lives for seven of the last ten years by allowing Afghanistan to tread water in chaos while we went off nation building in Iraq. Iraq having an infrastructure in place responded better to COIN than Afghanistan ever would, however we have run out of time, patience, money and most of all human life in Afghanistan to draw it to a close now that we've allowed the Taliban to literally reassert itself in the region, in my opinion.

 

[Kelly]

DA there will always be a problem of ANY KIND of centralized government in this region. Why? Because of the Nationalistic tendencies that prevail throughout these countries as well as countries of Africa. People are more loyal to their clans, tribes, ethnic groups than they are to the central government....that is not going to change, and therefore any type of centralized government in these regions is screwed before it starts....

 

[DACrowe]

Agreed. I mean hell, how can one feel "dirty" about defending Bush and then have no problem defending Obama? In terms of foreign policy, Obama and Bush are essentially the same. Bush got involved in Iraq while engaged in Afghanistan - Obama got involved in Libya while engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But at least Obama is anti-Gitmo.

Obama opposes torture is a key difference. Another is that Obama prefers alternative means. In Libya he got real international support to be involved so the US did not bare the brunt of the costs of war and managed to prevent a land invasion which Bush was to happy to do....twice. While unfortunately Libya seems to be a stalemate, regime change was never our endgame, genocide prevention was. We have prevented major killing fields, weakened Gadhafi to the points where he has no more major allies (Turkey abandoned him this week) and most of all have avoided massive American casualties (or any as of yet, thank God) and are not involved in a decade(s) long nation building process.

The similarities between Libya and Iraq are relatively superficial. However, if you wish to say we should be involved in neither that is a fair point worth debate. I'm glad Benghazi and Mistrata are not piled high with dead children, but like Iraq the endgame seems a mystery--albeit few remember Kosovo was a year-long affair. Hopefully Libya will have a similar resolution. Not to pick a fight, I just see the comparisons between Libya and Iraq as inaccurate.

 

[Sloth7d]

Agreed. I mean hell, how can one feel "dirty" about defending Bush and then have no problem defending Obama? In terms of foreign policy, Obama and Bush are essentially the same. Bush got involved in Iraq while engaged in Afghanistan - Obama got involved in Libya while engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But at least Obama is anti-Gitmo.

Isn't that ignoring the circumstances a bit.

 

[Paradoxium]

Call me crazy but maybe Obama should have held off telling the world they killed OBL for a week. So they could use the intel and squash as many terrorists as quickly as possible. I could live with the delay if that was the reason. I fathom tons of people would have been be okay with it.

 

[Marx]

Agreed. I mean hell, how can one feel "dirty" about defending Bush and then have no problem defending Obama? In terms of foreign policy, Obama and Bush are essentially the same. Bush got involved in Iraq while engaged in Afghanistan - Obama got involved in Libya while engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But at least Obama is anti-Gitmo.

Isn't that ignoring the circumstances a bit.

It's ignoring the circumstands a lot.

 

[Paradoxium]

U.S. Boosts Ranks of Elite Forces

This was what I said a day or two ago. They should up this. Looks like it is happening. Good call.

 

[craigdbfan]

No. You could have easily allowed non-Taliban warlords to rule the country as they see fit. Forcing a democracy on Afganistan was social engineering and an extention of the same failed foreign policy we have had since Wilson. Democray is not in itself a good and it is not proper for every society and culture.

But manifest destiny is realz.

 

[Paradoxium]

Ah the ever awesome Democracy schtick. Remember how 1/2 to 3/4 of this forum was cheering on the Egyptian "secular democratic" movement? Nothing but crickets now. The Muslim Brother is projected to take up 75% of the seats and the leading candidate is Amr Moussa, wants to **** and chafe with Israel.

Holding hands, making peaceful chants of democracy my god damn ass.

 

[Raiden]

Call me crazy but maybe Obama should have held off telling the world they killed OBL for a week. So they could use the intel and squash as many terrorists as quickly as possible. I could live with the delay if that was the reason. I fathom tons of people would have been be okay with it.

I doubt people would be understanding if WH held off the announcement of Bin Laden's death for a week, just like they don't understand the reason behind withholding the picture of OBL's corpse.

 

[Paradoxium]

OBL's photo is pure wussy political correctness.

The delayed announcement is for pure strategic logic to wack more terrorists.

 

[redfirebird2008]

*sighs*...reaping the benefits of the intel. Feels good......

Indeed. I figured there was a chance we might get just as much out of the intel as we did out of killing our bogeyman. However, I didn't think he would be stupid enough to have 10 hard drives and 100 other data storage devices (data CD's/DVD's, USB thumb drives, and so forth). I'm sure the CIA is happy as can be right now.

 

[Marx]

CBS News is reporting that some of the information recovered in the raid that killed Bin Laden contains areas where other Al-Qaeda leaders may be hiding.

 

[Kelly]

WTF? WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHY WOULD YOU (our government) LET ANYONE KNOW THAT THEY HAD THAT INFORMATION....good lord.

 

[Marx]

WTF? WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHY WOULD YOU (our government) LET ANYONE KNOW THAT THEY HAD THAT INFORMATION....good lord.

I'm wondering the same thing...

 

[Marx]

UPDATE: AL-QAEDA PLANS AND THREATS BEGIN TO SURFACE
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/06/pakistan.bin.laden/index.html?hpt=T1