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Discussion in 'DC Comics Films' started by Kevin Smith, Apr 3, 2013.
Alright fandom, who did you prefer?
okay, I guess now everyone won't get their panties in a knot.
anyways, it's obvious that Schumacher loses this "battle" .
as for burton and Nolan, I think there's much to love about both interpretations. Nolan's more year one/gotham central-esque "grit " and "realism " (although I think he kinda lost that once TDKR came around ) and burton's fantastical gothic "weirdness " ( actually 89 wasn't very tim burton-esque at all. returns almost feels like an entirely different movie ) . I think 89 was closer to the comics that it was made in at the time than returns was ( which is funny considering burton never even read a comic book), but I still love the look and feel of returns . and everyone gives bale crap for his "cookie monster " voice but he did a damn fine job with the role, particularly in batman begins . I look at it this way : bale perfected bruce wayne, but didn't pull off his "batman " side quite as well. whereas Keaton was a great and badass batman , but a terrible bruce wayne (in my opinion anyway ) . I mean , Keaton outside of the costume was still fun to watch and charming in his own "quirky " way... but it wasn't "bruce wayne " charming.
I think the perfect batman movie would include the best of both worlds : the "grittiness " of Nolan's films combined with the "gothic " feel and look of burton's.
Schumacher.... obviously dropped the ball, but batman forever is still slightly watchable, much more so than.... you know... that other movie....and I bet if you gave him the chance to do a more Nolan-esque "serious " batman film he could do a very good job with it, considering his other movies (falling down is a good example ). of course if they even dared to let Schumacher direct another batman movie the fanboys would set the dogs on him. lol
Overall Nolan. He ticked more of the right boxes than the other two did, IMO. He nailed Batman's origin, the Batman/Gordon relationship, the Joker was utterly amazing, loved Harvey Dent/Two Face's arc, Ra's Al Ghul was great, Hathaway was delightful as Selina Kyle, and the supporting cast like Alfred, Lucius and of course Gordon were the strongest of any comic book movie.
I love how all three movies are peppered with comic book influences like Year One, The Long Halloween, The Killing Joke, Knightfall, and No Man's Land.
Burton did read comics or at least look at them for production on Batman 89, he held up a copy of Dark Knight Returns and said "this is what I want". The Kevin Smith thing was an exaggeration in a heat of the moment exchange between the two.
But I agree, I love the look and tone of the 89 Batman. It isn't a Tim Burton-esque movie, it's a Batman movie, IMO, Batman Returns on the other hand feels claustrophobic in set and very much like a Tim Burton movie; Batman Returns is a Tim Burton movie, Batman 89 is a Batman movie, the way I see it. I really hope someone goes back to the tone of the 89 film at some point, I really loved it. I mean that is Batman's world, although I didn't mind the look of TDK...the city looked nice shot with those cameras, but it isn't Gotham, it's Chicago circa 2007, which is cool in its own way, but not my ideal Gotham City haha.
Here are my thoughts and preferences on the Batman live action films so far (Burton and Nolan of course, although as a young kid I did enjoy Batman & Robin, Batman Forever has always been my least favorite Batman movie, I know that's weird for a lot of people):
Here are things I liked better about Burton's Batman:
- The score (definitive Batman, fellas)
- The batmobile (and I'll add the batplane, and even the batboat from Returns up there as well)
- the batsuit (It looks like a creature, like the actual BATMAN, Batman in the Nolan film always looks like a guy dressing up as Batman instead of a creature, hence the armor/mechanical look)
- the batcave. It was just awesome and all around cool looking. Exactly what I think of when i think of Batman. Nolan's was pretty mundane throughout every movie, I kept expecting them to improve as they went along, but they didn't.
- Keaton was a better Batman. There. I said it. His Batman voice is awesome and he looked cooler, and he kept his cool. He was like the Batman of the comics. He never flew off the handle or became a screaming maniac. There is a reason why people make fun of Bale's (or Nolan's) Batman on youtube/college humor so much, doing the voice/character that way lended a lot of ridiculousness to it.
- Gotham city. Anton Furst got academy award cred for his Gotham City. That's how Gotham should like, not too far from reality but it should be its own world
- permawhite Joker WITH laughing gas. Laughing to death is still 100 times more terrifying to me than a dude slashing my face. It's a contrast, which is what the Joker is. I think Nicholson and Ledger are neck and neck, but I knew Nicholson could do it since he is the Joker in the flesh in many ways in real life (too perfect for the part some might say, but I love him), Ledger was kind of a shock for me, so that definitely makes me hold his performance in a higher regard in one sense, although I will say they are equally as good at the end of the day.
- The 89 film is a Batman movie, not a "Burton" film, not a "Nolan" film, not a "crime drama"
- Vicki Vale love interest, I hated Rachel Dawes and she was a terrible character, doesn't help that she doesn't exist in the comics, either
....now here's what I liked better about Nolan's films:
- That Bruce Wayne's parents were killed by a common street thug (Joe Chill) without any ties to future Batman villains. They get the origin right in that respect for the most part. I do wish the Waynes had attended a movie instead of a play (a play about BATS of all things...what the ****, but I get it I guess) I do wish they'd have shown him travelling the world and perfecting his detective/disguise/chmical/skills and athletic prowess more, but maybe next time.
- Gary Oldman as Commissioner Gordon. Perfect casting, the guy was born to play him
- The Batman/Gordon relationship being prevalent throughout the series. This was done perfectly, IMO, exactly how it should have been done and how I always wanted to see it
- Bruce Wayne being a socialite and doing some overall Bruce Wayney things - there isn't much of that in either of the Burton films, or as much I should say. Little things like Bruce being asleep at the meeting in TDK I liked.
- The multiple villains Nolan weaved into TDK without making us notice too much; I liked that the Scarecrow was in every film and Two Face was in TDK - although I think both could carry their own films. People complain that the villains are sometimes given too much spot in the Batman films, but for me, half of Batman has always been his villains.
- Catwoman's portrayal in TDKR - just a petty thief. I may have liked Burton's Catwoman costume better, but let's face it, in no way is Nolan (or many other directors) ever going to be able to touch Burton stylistically, which is both a good and bad thing on some days, although I did not think Catwoman's costume was bad on the whole in TDKR. I liked her portrayal as just a thief better than some freaky woman who was pushed out of a window revived by cats - even though that was cool in its own way, it's very Burtony and NOT Batman, and ultimately not what I want to see in a Batman movie (in addition to his Penguin creation, DeVito was perfect casting, but Burton effed it with having him play his high school creation he called "The Penguin" instead of the actual comic book character of The Penguin, I still enjoy some of DeVito's scenes though)
- That Batman himself does not kill (Depending on the circumstances I can see how this rule being violated as an exception sometimes, however on the whole I believe it should be maintained that the character does NOT kill, ever for the most part)
...having said all that, neither have got it 100% right so far, the best incarnation of Batman is still, to this day Batman: The Animates Series. A movie done with that style and tone is my ideal Batman film, even something along the lines of what they did with the Zorro film by Martin Campbell from the nineties, keep the level of fun/swashbucklerness of it that gets you excited about the character in addition to the dark and the heaviness and the seriousness and mystery and suspense of it, then you got the perfect Batman movie. Along with Elfman's and/or Shirley Walker's Batman score and the 89 or animated series batmobile of course.
Rankings for me:
1.) Batman '89 - 9.5/10
2.) The Dark Knight - 9.4/10
3.) Batman Begins - 6.5/10
4.) The Dark Knight Rises - 5.5/10
5.) Batman Returns - 4.9/10
6.) Batman & Robin - 0.1/10
7.) Batman Forever - 0/10
Yeah, I prefer Batman & Robin to Batman Forever, B & R was at least honest about itself with what it was, Forever tries to make you think it's a good movie when it isn't and it's attempts to engage come off as way over dramatic, I hate watching any of it, B & R I can at least look at and laugh at some of it and accept it for what it is, although I will admit I enjoyed parts of it as a young kid.
Pat Hingle as Gordon never really felt like Gordon . his performance was basically " oh , batman , you saved the day ! thanks batman ! i'm gonna go back to eating my donuts. " Nolan/oldman definitely did a better job with Gordon and his relationship with batman.
everyone gives Nicholson crap because he " just plays Nicholson in clown makeup " . well that's sort of the point ! his twisted devilish charm is the whole reason he was casted for the role in the first place , and I very much enjoy his performance, although it's obvious that heath did a better job with the role and definitely put more effort into bringing the character to life. but this is an argument that has already been constantly brought up , so i'll try not to go further with it. lol
Hathaway vs. pfeiffer however is still a hard choice for me.
both you guys bring up a lot of good points really.
there's nothing I like about the Burton movies more than the Nolan movies.
I can't stand the look of the gothic, set look of Gotham, and although the Elfman score matches the tone of what's going on, I really don't like the tone, and thus the score either.
I don't care if it's 'more batman' than the Nolan 'crime-drama' movies. If that's the case, I like crime-dramas more than classic Batman.
Keaton gave a good performance though. Especially in the first party scene.
If they took the unabashed creativity and epic feel and overall excitement of the original 89 Batman and combined it with the character/story arc of Begins and TDK (not that the 89 film had bad character arcs necessarily) and combined the two with a splash of Batman: The Animated Series, you'd have the perfect Batman movie, IMO.
Nolan didn't read a lot of comics either. It was mostly his brother and David S. Goyer that did the adaptation part of the trilogy. Just want to point that out.
As for whose take I prefer the most, I would have to go with Nolan's despite the fact that I was heavily dissapointed with TDKR and all the messages in it that I find to be very anti-Batman (the line "Anyone can be Batman", Bruce giving up the mantle of Batman and passing it to a rookie cop and go party with a hot chick despite Batman being the most motivated superhero there is, etc. BUT that is a topic for a different thread). However, I absolutely loved BB and TDK and I think they hit every aspect of Batman that I love except for Batman's intelligence and detective skills. That's really my biggest complaint with the entire trilogy. They never showed Batman's genius intellect though I admit I kinda gave it a pass in BB and TDK because 1) it was still Year One Batman and 2) it was nothing you couldn't easily fix in the sequel. But other than that, I think BB and TDK nailed pretty much every other aspect of the character more or less.
.....Nolan. Really, the only things I enjoy about the Burton and Schumacher series are Nicholson, snow in Returns and Batman & Robin as a comedy. It's a horrible movie but I enjoy watching those (like The Room).
I agree with just about every criticism there of the Nolan trilogy, I really wish they'd have shown his genius level intellect more in it, and more of him being the uber detective he is in the comics. The one other criticism I have with the Nolan films, good as they are, is Batman doesn't have much of a "cool" factor to him. There's not a lot of "there" moments with his Batman. I remember seeing tv spots for TDK where Batman jumps down with his cape spread and getting all excited like "omg! There IS a Batman movie coming out!", his series needed more moments of that, IMO, because to me, that's half the character. If they'd only up that I'd say his movies would probably be damn near perfect.
Haha well I knew it would come down to Burton or Nolan, however the votes aren't public so if someone DOES vote Schumacher they aren't like "shamed" here on the boards, but the Schumacher option is on there because ya just never really know - it was a last minute decision of mine at the time I created this thread, thought it'd be fair. t:
In my opinion, BB and TDK would be absolutely perfect if they did a better job at showing his genius intellect. Instead, they're just very close to perfect. I personally think the "cool" factor was there though I can understand why you think it wasn't. I think that goes back to the intelligence thing though. Batman being the badass detective he is would've brought a lot of that in. I also think Bale's voice is part of the reason why some people feel that way. Batman should sound deep and scary but also very intelligent and calculative in his voice just like how Kevin Conroy does. Bale doesn't really have that IMO and I think the intelligence not being felt in his voice is also why the little detective work he does do in the trilogy (and yes, he does do some) gets overlooked.
Also, Batman in BB and TDK was still the Year One Batman. If you've read Year One, Batman wasn't that super cool Batman that can take down the JL in that book. It was him at the beginning of his career so that didn't bother me that much (even Superman and Spider-Man weren't the heroes they are today that they were in their very early career). That's also why Nolan's Batman doesn't have a lot of "He's the Goddamn Batman!" scenes. Though he does have that badass scene towards the end when he takes down Joker's men and multiple swat teams while protecting an entire building of hostages and does so using his tactics and the sonar machine that he himself made. That was so badass t:.
voted Schumacher for the lulz .
I like Burton Batman.
I don't like Schumacher Batman. I don't mind Nolan Batman, especially in the first two films.
I think I would choose Nolan Joker over Burton Joker though. But, I would definitely choose Burton Catwoman over Nolan Catwoman.
Am i the only one that doesn't hate Schumacher Batman? I loved them too much as a kid to hate them now. even though i can acknowledge the cheese and camp, I still thoroughly enjoy those movies. I like the Burton, Nolan, and Schumacher movies for different reasons, but honestly love all of them for what they are.
Michelle Pfeiffer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>............................................................................................................anne hathaway.
Nolan, please. No question at all for me. I've always loved Batman, but he elevated the character and that world to a whole new level for me.
Then Burton, as a very distant (but still and always much loved) second. The one that introduced me to Batman in the first place.
I can't deny that I loved them as a kid too. i think someone said on the other thread that it's comparable to watching the room in a "it's so bad/cheesy it's entertaining " kinda way, and i agree with that. atleast with batman and robin. batman forever did have some legitimately good moments in my opinion. jim carrey and tommy lee jones were fun as hell to watch, even if it seems as if Schumacher basically told them to act like joker clones rather than the characters they were casted for. i think it would've been better if tommy lee jones just straight up played a resurrected joker or something instead of two face, because he certainly didn't act like the latter nearly as much as the former. and jim carrey was great as a "campier " riddler, and i think he could do a great job if they gave him another shot at the role, this time a more serious approach.
I personally enjoy Batman Forever. So no, you're not the only one.
I'll take Batman Forever or even Batman and Robin over Batman Returns. I can't even sit through that one.
Are we talking as a series, or Batman the character?
Either way, Burton and Nolan trade off pros and cons.
I would say Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are handily the better films, but there's more to it than that in terms of interpretation.
When it comes to interpreting Batman himself, Nolan's nails elements Burton was missing, and Burton nailed elements that Nolan severely neglected. That one is tough for me.
The series, but as "characters" is not off topic either.
That's exactly how I see it.
See, ya stopped complaining and instead decided to do something far more productive with your life and made your own poll.
Good job, I'm proud of ya