Bush refuses to debate Iran leader

[maxwell's demon]

Here are a few of my favorite quotes (direct quotes) from the leader. You be the judge of if we are dealing with a guy in his right mind:

--The Iranian nation is a learned nation. It is a civilised nation. It is a history-making nation... You know and we know: you need us far more than we need you.

-my translation. all but the last sentence can easily be seen as true. And on that last sentence? he's not crazy. he's sly like a fox. the last sentence is about oil.

--As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map.

I heard this was mistranslated. regardless he recently said the opposite.

--They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets.

to me this is highly inflmamatory. agreed. But that's a far cry from saying the guy is "crazy".

--There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world, ... The World without Zionism. Anybody who recognises Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nations' fury [and] is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world.”

same as before. And i'll point you back to stuff Bush has said , which i referred ot in my previous post.
Much of this has to do with the cultural differnces you noted. the terms like "Fire" are rhetorical- not meant to be taken literally, and would likely not sound so "scarey" to people in that culture.

--The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world.

"democracy cannot be held back! it will free the world!" does that sound scarey to you? of course not. but it might to someone from another culture, eh?

--Iran is ready to transfer nuclear know-how to the Islamic countries due to their need.

due to their need. nuclear-knowhow. i see energy talk, but the suspicious see a veiled weapons-threat.


-So, in short. Is the guy in his right mind? I don't know. But based on those statements he merely sounds like every other politican on the planet.

so hey....i guess maybe he IS crazy.

 

[sinewave]

I don't think we need to give Bush anymore opportunities to speak publicly than he already gets. It's too painful to watch.

 

[tomahawk53]

-my translation. all but the last sentence can easily be seen as true. And on that last sentence? he's not crazy. he's sly like a fox. the last sentence is about oil.

Agreed...but still it's very arrogant to say this. As if he was some one who could care less what people think of him.

-I heard this was mistranslated. regardless he recently said the opposite.

I heard he meant what he said then bc of the back lash said the opposite.

-to me this is highly inflmamatory. agreed. But that's a far cry from saying the guy is "crazy".

If that was the only 'crazy' thing he said it would still make me wonder if he was all there or not.

-same as before. And i'll point you back to stuff Bush has said , which i referred ot in my previous post.
Much of this has to do with the cultural differnces you noted. the terms like "Fire" are rhetorical- not meant to be taken literally, and would likely not sound so "scarey" to people in that culture.

How do you know they are rhetorical? Even so the words 'Burn in the Fire' when he's talking about 'the Islamic nations' fury' sounds way to much like a threat of physical violence...taken rhetorically or literally.

-due to their need. nuclear-knowhow. i see energy talk, but the suspicious see a veiled weapons-threat.

I'm of the opinion that I don't ever want to know if it was or wasn't a weapons threat...are you really willing to take the chance?

 

[Matt]

If Bush is so confident America in the right, then he should haveno problem with this.

 

[Caliber]

I don't think we need to give Bush anymore opportunities to speak publicly than he already gets. It's too painful to watch.

Its painful to think believe and voted for him.

 

[Caliber]

No. The only purpose of this debate would be to enhance the reputation of the Iranian leader without doing anything productive.

It's a standard ploy by politicians who won't lose anything by doing a debate knowing that the public won't remember anything that is said other than the guy who has the most to lose.

But it could also work for Bush since he has low popularity in the world and by just saying he will debate would show something.

 

[maxwell's demon]

Tomahawk,
as i said, there are cultural divides. What you have to do is try putting yourself in their shoes before you draw conclusions. It'd help you understand their perspective as it applies to their own words, and also their perspective as it applies to the things we say about them.

Did the quote about the "axis of evil" give you some frame of reference?
How about the one about "democracy spreading"?
It's hard to imagine "democracy" as anything but good, wholesome, and desirable. But that's because we also equate it with baseball, apple pie, and any number of american "Dreams". It's an embodiment of everything we "know" and "love".
However, might it not be POSSIBLE that to other cultures democracy is just a word. Or moreover, a word connected not to 'apple pie' or 'baseball'... but
instead to "bombings". "massacres". "collateral damage".
If you can entertain this POSSIBILITY...then again look at that aforementioned quote.

And then step back, and wonder:
Is it possible that 'Islam' could be connected to the middle-Eastern equivalents of 'apple pie' and 'baseball' over there?

It's when we stop doing that....that's when we stop being a civilized society.

 

[tomahawk53]

Tomahawk,
as i said, there are cultural divides. What you have to do is try putting yourself in their shoes before you draw conclusions. It'd help you understand their perspective as it applies to their own words, and also their perspective as it applies to the things we say about them.

Did the quote about the "axis of evil" give you some frame of reference?
How about the one about "democracy spreading"?
It's hard to imagine "democracy" as anything but good, wholesome, and desirable. But that's because we also equate it with baseball, apple pie, and any number of american "Dreams". It's an embodiment of everything we "know" and "love".
However, might it not be POSSIBLE that to other cultures democracy is just a word. Or moreover, a word connected not to 'apple pie' or 'baseball'... but
instead to "bombings". "massacres". "collateral damage".
If you can entertain this POSSIBILITY...then again look at that aforementioned quote.

And then step back, and wonder:
Is it possible that 'Islam' could be connected to the middle-Eastern equivalents of 'apple pie' and 'baseball' over there?

It's when we stop doing that....that's when we stop being a civilized society.

Looks like we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this Max.

I really can't think of it from their point of view because the cultural difference is too great to do so. I think it's that way for all of us as well. Meaning either side.

I still don't think the president NEEDS to debate this guy and if he chooses not too I'm ok with that...if he chooses to do it I'll STILL think that it's a mistake.

And I really think that this guy is off his rocker in a major way.

 

[Addendum]

Tomahawk's brain hurts. Give him a break.

 

[maxwell's demon]

Looks like we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this Max.

I really can't think of it from their point of view because the cultural difference is too great to do so. I think it's that way for all of us as well. Meaning either side.

I still don't think the president NEEDS to debate this guy and if he chooses not too I'm ok with that...if he chooses to do it I'll STILL think that it's a mistake.

And I really think that this guy is off his rocker in a major way.

well said. As usual i have no problem disagreeing with you because i know we've both been able to make our cases without throw tantrums when presented with views counter to our own

I'd still like to hear more about why it would be a bad idea to debate. it seems like a no-harm no-foul situation to me, but again, that' just my perspective.

 

[maxwell's demon]

Tomahawk's brain hurts. Give him a break.

uncool

 

[tomahawk53]

Tomahawk's brain hurts. Give him a break.

Hurts???? It freakin Exploded!!!!!

 

[maxwell's demon]

Hurts???? It freakin Exploded!!!!!

cool

 

[War Lord]

But it could also work for Bush since he has low popularity in the world and by just saying he will debate would show something.

The only reason why Bush would need to be concerned about the world's opinion is if he was elected by the world. Since he wasn't, it's irrelevant what the world thinks about Bush.

I don't think Chirac loses much sleep because the rest of the world doesn't think highly of him.

 

[Matt]

The only reason why Bush would need to be concerned about the world's opinion is if he was elected by the world. Since he wasn't, it's irrelevant what the world thinks about Bush.

I don't think Chirac loses much sleep because the rest of the world doesn't think highly of him.

And it certainly doesn't effect you that the rest of the Hype finds you annoying or that Americans debating American policy could care less what a Canadian thinks

 

[maxwell's demon]

it's irrelevant what the world thinks about Bush.

Wow. you really DO think an "american".

you know, by your own logic, it SHOULD BE irrelevant what the world thinks about the leaders of other countries.

like, say....Iran.


just sayin'.

 

[Superman]

I don't think Bush should debate him, That's just dumb, But I do think the US should talk to Iran.

 

[Spider-Bite]

The only reason why Bush would need to be concerned about the world's opinion is if he was elected by the world. Since he wasn't, it's irrelevant what the world thinks about Bush.

I don't think Chirac loses much sleep because the rest of the world doesn't think highly of him.

I hate to say this to you, because I don't have any bad feelings about you as a person or anything like that. But that post is really, really, really, really stupid. Did you care what that those terrorists were thinking when they decided to fly planes into the WTC? They thought about it, and then they did it.

 

[Addendum]

And I don't lose sleep over a Canadian's opion on American policy

 

[tomahawk53]

Those terrorist were Anti-American not just Anti-Bush. They hated Clinton just as much I'm sure. This wasn't some new hatred that just popped up when Bush was elected...it had to have been there for quite a while.

I see what you are trying to say though...but I think you are going about saying it the wrong way.

 

[Spider-Bite]

And I don't lose sleep over a Canadian's opion on American policy

you wont lose sleep but you will lose an ally, which could potentially cost american lives, and if those americans are dead than all they will ever do is sleep.

enjoy your good night sleep that you wont lose

 

[Spider-Bite]

Those terrorist were Anti-American not just Anti-Bush. They hated Clinton just as much I'm sure. This wasn't some new hatred that just popped up when Bush was elected...it had to have been there for quite a while.

I see what you are trying to say though...but I think you are going about saying it the wrong way.

of course they hated clinton. this conflict has been going on since before any of us were even born. I'm saying that we should be adding water to the flame instead of gasoline.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

It's not the US president’s logical position that I'm worried about.

Do you honestly think that he will listen to any logical point Bush would make? Especially since this guy thinks it's 'logical' to wipe Israel off the map.

I think his sense of logic is not working or something...

that's not really the question is it? I already saw your responses to Max, and so we shall agree to disagree, however I will say this.

1.- do you Honestly think that Bush will listen to any logical point HE has to make, especially since he is in a military disadvantage when compared to the US.

2.- I don't think he stated this as Logical, it's rhetoric, I saw no one calling Bush a maniac when he said he had a "crusade" on his hands, dozens of other little statement that to anyone not in the US would seem well, weird.... to say the least, you called the Iranian president "arrogant" what do you think of a president that says "you're either with us, or against us"

pretty scary right?

 

[Addendum]

you wont lose sleep but you will lose an ally, which could potentially cost american lives, and if those americans are dead than all they will ever do is sleep.

enjoy your good night sleep that you wont lose

I lose sleep when I'm watching a movie or playing video games. Nothing else

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Those terrorist were Anti-American not just Anti-Bush. They hated Clinton just as much I'm sure. This wasn't some new hatred that just popped up when Bush was elected...it had to have been there for quite a while.

I see what you are trying to say though...but I think you are going about saying it the wrong way.

was it really? it seems pretty cold and calculated to really be hatred.
almost like some sort of military operation minus rules of engagement and sophisticated weapons.