The Dark Knight Caine Describes Ledger's Joker

[The Empire Ape]

he becomes insane (triggered by his chemical bath, at the end of a long road of events) and embraces his insanity

No. The Joker is not insane. This poor word is always so misused.

 

[hatebox]

I'm sorry. You're right. Conditionless acceptance should be a virtue here.

Ditto for level-headedness

 

[Dangerous]

I think you missed my point.

Yes, absolutely. Someone choosing to be a monster is scary. But, IMO, that's not the comics Joker. Monstrosity is forced upon him, he becomes insane (triggered by his chemical bath, at the end of a long road of events) and embraces his insanity and deformities. Both interpretations are scary, and I still greatly anticipate TDK Joker, but it is a different slant on the character. Which is not a good or bad thing in and of itself, just that I was looking forward to a comic-faithful Joker, given that BB borrowed so well from the comics (and adapted much of the material well).

Agreed.

 

[itsthebatman]

Caine is an English gent and above lying, but he does have a way of mixing his words and producing an ambiguous syntax. He's probably giving an accurate summary, but it may not be the whole picture.

[Melchett] That's ma boy. When all else fails, a pig-headed stubborness and refusal to face the facts will see us through.[Melchett]
I paraphrase, of course. I hope you're right, and that old Micky is getting things mixed up. Could he be using make-up to fill in the gaps and smooth over rough parts on a deformed fizzog?
*crosses fingers, hold breath, passes out*

 

[Judson Caspian]

Caine is an English gent and above lying, but he does have a way of mixing his words and producing an ambiguous syntax. He's probably giving an accurate summary, but it may not be the whole picture.

To be honest, all this sounds too different from a Nolan directed film. Sure, Batman Begins wasn't entirely loyal to the comics. But this... the "no way" signal is beeping like it's going to break.

 

[itsthebatman]

No. The Joker is not insane. This poor word is always so misused.

Really? He is of sound mind and not mentally deranged? In what way is he NOT insane?

 

[itsthebatman]

You're free to believe that.

I challenge you to film yourself f***ing this movie.

 

[Eggyman]

If I can't have young scary psychotic permawhite Joker (that would have been ideal but we don't live in an ideal world), I'll take young scary psychotic made-up Joker over old fat funny permawhite Joker any time of the day. No offence to "Uncle" Jack, he was a lot of fun in B89.

Really? He is of sound mind and not mentally deranged? In what way is he NOT insane?

Come on man, use your head. How many times has he been captured? And out of all them times, how many times did he get sent to a mental asylum . . . erm, oh. I agree with you dude

Edit: Gwy, not sure why your post is in there, dude. You make sense though, so it can stay

 

[The Empire Ape]

Really? He is of sound mind and not mentally deranged? In what way is he NOT insane?

He is a sociopath, but if he would be "sound mind" and "mentally deranged" it would let Batman look very, very bad.

"Insanity" is something that would apply to Two-Face, for example.

 

[Judson Caspian]

I challenge you to film yourself f***ing this movie.

Rather that than Joker make-up.

 

[itsthebatman]

He is a sociopath, but if he would be "sound mind" and "mentally deranged" it would let Batman look very, very bad.

"Insanity" is something that would apply to Two-Face, for example.

I don't understand your point. Yes, he's sociopathic, but I also believe him to be insane. I don't see what that has to do with Batman.

 

[itsthebatman]

Rather that than Joker make-up.

Cheer up, man! After all
#It's the most wonderful time of the year#

 

[gwynplaine]

Come on man, use your head. How many times has he been captured? And out of all them times, how many times did he get sent to a mental asylum . . . erm, oh. I agree with you dude

Edit: Gwy, not sure why your post is in there, dude. You make sense though, so it can stay

Lol.

 

[Matchbox]

I really wish someone would ask Nolan about this Joker makup debacle point-blank and see what kind of an answer we get.

 

[Octoberist]

it's funny how all of a sudden, SOME people are making this as if this alone with destroy the movie ;p

Seriously, I'm sorta dissapointed too. But it doesn't bother me too, for some reason..

 

[The Empire Ape]

I don't understand your point. Yes, he's sociopathic, but I also believe him to be insane. I don't see what that has to do with Batman.

An insane Joker would be totally wrong. He would not be evil, he would just be sick (in the sense of "having a disease"). But the Joker knows social norms but he just doesn't care. That's the point. An insane guy would not be a really, let's call it, enduring villains, because he would not have a clear mind. And I think the Joker's mind is very clear, because if not he would not be the mastermind he is. Yeah, I know, the Joker has been portrayed this way in recent times... but to me the Joker is and was sane, as he was the most time of his fictional existence. That is what makes him devil-ish, insanity would make him just a poor victim.

 

[Agentsands77]

If he WAS captured, they'd NEVER let him keep the make-up on. So he'll just go uncaptured so he could keep it on?

I always thought that this could be resolved by A) Nolan simply never showing us the Joker with his make-up off, even if that's the case, and B) some stupid Arkham doctor suggesting that to remove his make-up might destroy his fragile psyche.

 

[The Joker]

Yes, absolutely. Someone choosing to be a monster is scary. But, IMO, that's not the comics Joker. Monstrosity is forced upon him, he becomes insane (triggered by his chemical bath, at the end of a long road of events) and embraces his insanity and deformities. Both interpretations are scary, and I still greatly anticipate TDK Joker, but it is a different slant on the character. Which is not a good or bad thing in and of itself, just that I was looking forward to a comic-faithful Joker, given that BB borrowed so well from the comics (and adapted much of the material well).

Bingo

Trust a fellow irish man to get it

No. The Joker is not insane. This poor word is always so misused.

Yes, a man who believes putting Joker smiles on fish faces so he can copyright them is the actions of a sane man.

 

[Killing Joke926]

So you've seen it then?


I only said what I did in my last post because when I think of the Joker my ideal is someone who has been given no origin and absolutely relishes what he does and the character he is. Make-up may have never been done before but this new angle is in line with everything I like about the character of the Joker - he completely chooses to be what he is.

Now if there are scenes where it looks plain awful then I may not like it but apart from the interrogation scene (which will probably be intense as hell, and the smearing may add to the mood) we've no evidence it will look bad.

But, as always, we'll see.

I wouldn't worry too much, Nolan always has something up his sleeve; remember Ra's? Maybe we'll get another suprise.t:

 

[Eggyman]

An insane Joker would be totally wrong. He would not be evil, he would just be sick (in the sense of "having a disease"). But the Joker knows social norms but he just doesn't care. That's the point. An insane guy would not be a really, let's call it, enduring villains, because he would not have a clear mind. And I think the Joker's mind is very clear, because if not he would not be the mastermind he is. Yeah, I know, the Joker has been portrayed this way in recent times... but to me the Joker is and was sane, as he was the most time of his fictional existence. That is what makes him devil-ish, insanity would make him just a poor victim.

Come on man! Joker's screwy. He doesn't have a clear mind, hence the nature of a lot of his crimes. Many of his antics have nothing to do with the gaining of power -- whether it be money or whatever -- it has to do with pure gratification on his part. He wants to watch the world burn. He is a rare breed of insane: he knows he is, and embraces it. He is able to have a clear mind because there is no balancing act between irrational and rational -- he is completely irrational, and has no warring side to work against. His mind is clear because there is only one voice calling the shots in his head. The voice of insanity.



Edit: Heh, just noticed the major contradiction in my post -- going from saying he hasn't got a clear mind to saying he has. Oh well, guess it's hard work trying to work out the insane lol!

 

[Rorschach]

Everytime I read a permawhite vs. make-up debate, I'd wish Joker was never permawhite to begin with. Seriously, I hope DC would retcon that as a big FU, the fanboy uproar would be glorious.

 

[John Zatara]

"He's the dude that something bad happened to him and he's like, 'the way I deal with my grief is by making sure that everyone experiences grief' so that he fits in a bit more."

Kevin Smith
- Legends of the Dark Knight: The History of Batman

 

[Retroman]

I really wish someone would ask Nolan about this Joker makup debacle point-blank and see what kind of an answer we get.

Agreed though i suspect we won't get that answer until next year.

When they decided to go the cut smile route i suspected that the vat of chemicals origin may have been out of the window. We'll have to wait and see TDK to see if it's a good move or not.

 

[Gianakin_]

Ooooh, I sense a wave of Kevin Smith bashing coming...

 

[Eggyman]

"He's the dude that something bad happened to him and he's like, 'the way I deal with my grief is by making sure that everyone experiences grief' so that he fits in a bit more."

Kevin Smith
- Legends of the Dark Knight: The History of Batman

Well as long as Kevin Smith says so, we better all just chat app!