The Dark Knight Rises Can/Should Batman 3 break the multi-villain curse?

[GregComicFan]

Hi,

As we all know and are fully aware of... the third film in a superhero franchise usually screws it all up and ruins the whole ordeal... at least, in my opinion, it usually does... Blade 3 (worst of trilogy), X-Men 3 (worst of trilogy), Spiderman 3 (worst of trilogy), etc. etc.

One of the reasons the third film goes sadly sadly awry is the story often tries to cram too many villains into the plot. X-Men 3 did this (Dark Pheonix, Magneto, his henchmen, etc.), Spiderman 3 CLEARLY did this (one villain in S1 and S2, three villains in S3), Wolverine just did this....and I'm sure other examples are out there.

My question is... should/can Nolan's Batman 3 break the "oh my gosh this movie has too many villains" curse?????

Why I ask...

Everyone here has a different opinion about what Batman 3 should or will be about... but I think a lot of people would agree Nolan, throughout Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, has developed a plot point involving "freaks" taking over Gotham and the "mob element" getting the boot. There's not much need to go into detail. It's obvious Nolan made sure both storylines of both movies showed Gotham becoming less controlled by mobsters and more controlled/overrun with freaks (aka Batman's rogues gallery)... and I think this is totally awesome and an amazing touch.

With that said...

For me, there's actually a personal desire, a small desire, but a significant desire, for Batman 3 to show Gotham completely taken over by freaks.

No mob. At all. None. They're gone. Defeated.

Instead... Nolan shouldn't just introduce "only" Catwoman... or "only" Black Mask... or "only" Penguin, etc. etc. No... I think he should just throw in as many freaks as the plot/character development will allow.

Why? Because I think it actually WORKS within the storyline Nolan has developed over the past two films, unlike, say, Wolverine, which was a movie, I thought, threw in villains frivolously and without any reason/cause.

So who's in agreement? Who's not? I think, not certainly, but maaaaaybe Batman 3 SHOULD be a superhero film OVERRUN with villains.

I think Nolan can pull it off, break the curse, and make a good film with a ton of villains (ala Spiderman 3, Wolverine, etc.)

 

[Punisher Rising]

I think three villains should be the limit per movie and each should have decent development time and not just glossed over.

 

[Micah12345]

The first two batman movies already crammed alot of villains into them, the difference is that nolan knows how to pull it off.

 

[ronny]

I think that they should really focus on one villain (Riddler) but handle others too.
Like, show Batman taking down another freak at the begining, don't explain the motives, just show that the criminal fraternity has changed. Then, perhaps drop some hints as to who the next villain might be (Joker card, Mr-Reese).
It worked before and it can work again.

 

[Robin91939]

Batman Begins:
1.) Victor Zsasz played by Tim Boothe
2.) Bill Earle played by Rutger Hauer
3.) Ubu played by Ken Watanabe
4.) Detective Flass played by Mark Boone Junior
5.) Carmine Falcone played by Tom Wilkinson
6.) Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow played by Cillian Murphy
7.) Ra's Al Ghul played by Liam Neeson

You can even count Joe Chill played by Richard Brake as the eight villain of this film....there are a LOT of bad guys...plus all of the League of Shadows henchmen...

The Dark Knight
1.) Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow played by Cillian Murphy
2.) Lau played by Chin Han
3.) Gambol played by Michael Jai White
4.) The Chechen played by Ritchie Coster
5.) Salvatore Maroni played by Eric Roberts
6.) Two-Face played by Aaron Eckhart
7.) The Joker played by Heath Ledger

If you want to include Ron Dean's Detective Wuertz or Monique Curnen's Anna Ramirez then that is nine villains...plus the Joker's infinite henchmen, like Thomas Schiff played by David Dastmalchian, then you have a LOT of villains.

All of Nolan's Batman films featured at least TWO main villains (Ra's Al Ghul/ Scarecrow, Joker/Two-Face), two or three secondary villains (Carmine Falcone/Earle/Ubu, Maroni/The Chechen/Lau) and random bad guys like (Flass, Gambol) with a cameo villain (Zsasz, Scarecrow). These movies featured a LOT of villains...he's already broken the MULTIPLE VILLAIN CURSE. He just has to break it three times, apparently, for people to see that.


-R

 

[returntovoid]

They should make Riddler the main villain and give Penguin the Mob Boss role but they should not team up (I'm really sick of villains teaming up).

 

[TheScarecrow]

They should make Riddler the main villain and give Penguin the Mob Boss role but they should not team up (I'm really sick of villains teaming up).

Well, we're yet to see a "teamup" at this point in Nolan's series. Crane and Ra's were in more of a business relationship (Ra's was paying Crane, Crane was dispersing his toxin),and Joker simply manipulated a fragile Harvey.

I'm in favour of a MASSIVE amount of "freaks" in Gotham City - but only if it's done as part of a murder/mystery plot, like in TLH and DV and I don't think we should be "introduced" to any but Catwoman - with the rest already existing in Gotham.

 

[Laderlappen]

I dont think this is a good idea. You're too scared for the multi-villian thing. There needs to be 2 of them. You can do Black Mask as the only villian if you dont count Catwoman as one.

 

[Anjow1060]

Batman Begins:
1.) Victor Zsasz played by Tim Boothe
2.) Bill Earle played by Rutger Hauer
3.) Ubu played by Ken Watanabe
4.) Detective Flass played by Mark Boone Junior
5.) Carmine Falcone played by Tom Wilkinson
6.) Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow played by Cillian Murphy
7.) Ra's Al Ghul played by Liam Neeson

You can even count Joe Chill played by Richard Brake as the eight villain of this film....there are a LOT of bad guys...plus all of the League of Shadows henchmen...

The Dark Knight
1.) Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow played by Cillian Murphy
2.) Lau played by Chin Han
3.) Gambol played by Michael Jai White
4.) The Chechen played by Ritchie Coster
5.) Salvatore Maroni played by Eric Roberts
6.) Two-Face played by Aaron Eckhart
7.) The Joker played by Heath Ledger

If you want to include Ron Dean's Detective Wuertz or Monique Curnen's Anna Ramirez then that is nine villains...plus the Joker's infinite henchmen, like Thomas Schiff played by David Dastmalchian, then you have a LOT of villains.

All of Nolan's Batman films featured at least TWO main villains (Ra's Al Ghul/ Scarecrow, Joker/Two-Face), two or three secondary villains (Carmine Falcone/Earle/Ubu, Maroni/The Chechen/Lau) and random bad guys like (Flass, Gambol) with a cameo villain (Zsasz, Scarecrow). These movies featured a LOT of villains...he's already broken the MULTIPLE VILLAIN CURSE. He just has to break it three times, apparently, for people to see that.


-R

Exactly.

Nolan's approach already breaks the conventions of the cliche "team up"

Instead, it's a hierarchy of villains. One villain is exploiting and manipulating another for their own means. Either to utilize their abilities for their own plans or to set them up to take the fall for their actions.

Ras used Crane's abilities and was going to set him up to take the fall. Crane used Falcone's drugs to smuggle the toxin in. Falcone used Crane to get his thugs out of trouble.

Crane used the mob to sell his drugs. The mob hired the Joker to take out the Batman. The Joker played the mob to bankrupt them. The Joker manipulated and exploited Harvey into going crazy as to poke at Batman's faith and resolve.

I'm sure B3 will follow suit. If it ain't broke don't fix it. All the villains will be attempting to manipulate each other in some way or another to gain the upper hand.

- Jow

 

[GregComicFan]

Batman Begins:
1.) Victor Zsasz played by Tim Boothe
2.) Bill Earle played by Rutger Hauer
3.) Ubu played by Ken Watanabe
4.) Detective Flass played by Mark Boone Junior
5.) Carmine Falcone played by Tom Wilkinson
6.) Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow played by Cillian Murphy
7.) Ra's Al Ghul played by Liam Neeson

You can even count Joe Chill played by Richard Brake as the eight villain of this film....there are a LOT of bad guys...plus all of the League of Shadows henchmen...

The Dark Knight
1.) Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow played by Cillian Murphy
2.) Lau played by Chin Han
3.) Gambol played by Michael Jai White
4.) The Chechen played by Ritchie Coster
5.) Salvatore Maroni played by Eric Roberts
6.) Two-Face played by Aaron Eckhart
7.) The Joker played by Heath Ledger

If you want to include Ron Dean's Detective Wuertz or Monique Curnen's Anna Ramirez then that is nine villains...plus the Joker's infinite henchmen, like Thomas Schiff played by David Dastmalchian, then you have a LOT of villains.

All of Nolan's Batman films featured at least TWO main villains (Ra's Al Ghul/ Scarecrow, Joker/Two-Face), two or three secondary villains (Carmine Falcone/Earle/Ubu, Maroni/The Chechen/Lau) and random bad guys like (Flass, Gambol) with a cameo villain (Zsasz, Scarecrow). These movies featured a LOT of villains...he's already broken the MULTIPLE VILLAIN CURSE. He just has to break it three times, apparently, for people to see that.


-R

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about and why I started this thread. Nolan has already made BB/TDK a "multi-villain" show and handled it better than any other superhero-film-director ever. With that said, if you take a look at all those villains.. a lot of them are corrupt cops and mobsters. My theory is that due to "rise of the freaks" all the corrupt cops and mobsters should be removed and ONLY freaks should be in Batman 3.

Like poster "ronny" said..

"Like, show Batman taking down another freak at the begining, don't explain the motives, just show that the criminal fraternity has changed."

I also agree with him. Batman 3, I think, maybe, should simply state "the mob is dead and Batman's presence has given rise to freaks" and Nolan should incorporate "small time freaks" (ala Scarface, Mad Hatter, etc.) into the movie... I would love to see a climatic ending ala The Long Halloween (remember that big picture in the comic... havent read it in so long... where Joker is standing in a room and every Batman villain is behind him and they're like leaning on an office desk?) I think Batman 3 should pull off something like that. Develop the "new villain" (Riddler/Catwoman/whoever), but let all the other freaks come out too.

 

[GregComicFan]

I found the image...

This is the one I was talking about...

 

[brinomite]

Damn, i love the long halloween...i duno, i think this idea could function properly given that Nolan has incorporated so many villains/antiheroes/antagonists in BB and TDK. The key here is that he did so intelligently. Look at some of the films Greg mentioned here...spiderman 3, xmen3, and so forth. Not only were these films horrificly written, but there was a large amount of studio interference, something that Nolan explicity has detracted from. I have complete faith that if Nolan takes this approach, it will work.

 

[Robin91939]

You could really have these villains work in a film:

Mastermind Villain: The Riddler
Villain Mercenary Hired to capture the Batman by the Mob: Bane
Villain Mercenary Hired to Capture the Batman by the Cops: Dead Shot
Crime Bosses Vying for upper hand in Gotham: Oswald Cobblepot, Arnold Wesker and Scarface, Black Mask, Great White Shark, Mad Hatter ( any or all of these could be featured much like Gambol, the Chechen and Maroni and the other mob bosses were in The Dark Knight.
Love interest: Catwoman
Traditional Mob Element: Tony Zucco


You could make a movie using these characters. Probably not all of them, but in cameos and such- it could definitely be done in some capacity. Nolan could write this well...hell- I think that I could tell a great story with these characters....The Dark Knight CAN be topped. There are still great villains out there and a great story to tell.

-R

 

[chintai80]

i like ur ideas robin. and its similar to what i was thinking bout to. i can see it happening and nolan making a great movie out of it.

if not as great as dark knight, at least at the level of begins or better.

 

[GregComicFan]

Maybe the key to TOPPING Heath Ledger's Joker and TOPPING TDK is to just go all out with introducing tons of villains and giving them the "Nolan" treatment.

 

[Juha]

I'm a less-is-more type of guy myself. For example I always wanna beat the s*** out of everyone who thinks that Sinister Six is a good idea when it comes to Spider-man movies.

What Nolan did with all those characters in Batman Begins was nothing short of a miracle. But I felt that already in TDK "the multiple villains" aspect somewhat hurt the movie. Harvey/Two-Face could've been handled better IMO.

They're going to introduce Catwoman, there's no doubt about that. She's a semi-villain so we need another villain who's all out bad. I still think that The Ventriloquist is the most interesting villain now that Scarecrow, The Joker and Two-Face have already been used.

With these two villains, Nolan should be able to break the multi-villain curse quite easily. Catwoman kinda writes herself and The Ventriloquist could make a chilling addition to Batman's rogue gallery if handled correctly. The problem is that The Ventriloquist is too low-profile and not "cinematic enough" in order to make the cut. Which is too bad because he's psychologically so fascinating.

 

[rayc1971]

nolan has already broken the curse! i think batman 3 will have the riddler as the main baddie with catwoman as a love interest and anti hero helping batman in the end!i also think nolan will put in a rupert thorne or black mask controlling the mob!

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I think the true key for Nolan to make a film with numerous prominent villains work, is to treat them like this is his own product, and not have to worry about each and every character. For example, look at The Departed. Sure, there are two main characters, Billy and Colin, but there are NUMEROUS side-characters, on both sides:

Good:
Queenan
Dignam
Ellerby
Madolyn
Even minor ones like Brown

Bad:
Costello
French
Fitzy
Delahunt
Gwen
Barrigan

And this isn't counting the numerous extra characters encountered throughout the film.

There are NUMEROUS characters, each with decent enough roles in the span of only one film. I have no doubt that Batman 3 could work, with other villains interchanged with Costello's men, etc. I don't know that I'd add quite THAT large of a number of such prominent villains (like Bane, Freeze, etc.), but I could see something like that happening with crappier (Hush) or less-realistic (and thus, more altered to be translated) villains (Clayface).

 

[Nepenthes]

I think every character in Batman 3 should be a villain

 

[Two-Face]

As someone already said Nolan does pull off this multi-villain in his story so why change it? If Nolan needs more villains in Batman 3 I have faith in him to pull off again.

 

[Citadel30]

The thing that i love about Nolan and his directing style is that he feels every movie should be able to "stand on its own" regardless if it is a sequel, prequel, etc...

BB3 will definitely break that curse. Nolan is a mastermind when it comes to character development and even with a character like the joker, who didnt have a background story, the viewer still understood what his cause was. (in this case, total chaos).

 

[Citadel30]

I think every character in Batman 3 should be a villain

well, it looks like Batman is going to be the "villain" based on the ending of TDK... sooooooo... you are kinda right in a way.

 

[GregComicFan]

Okay here is a varient on the original question then...

Should every villain in Batman 3 be a "freak"? Should there be NO MORE mob bosses? Should every villain, no matter how big or small the role be a freak and hopefully one from Batman's rogue's gallery?

I saw one person mentioned Rupert Thorne. Do we really need anymore mob bosses or does another mob boss in Batman 3 ruin the "freaks have taken over" aspect of Gotham that Nolan has been pushing?

 

[Figs]

Okay here is a varient on the original question then...

Should every villain in Batman 3 be a "freak"? Should there be NO MORE mob bosses? Should every villain, no matter how big or small the role be a freak and hopefully one from Batman's rogue's gallery?

I saw one person mentioned Rupert Thorne. Do we really need anymore mob bosses or does another mob boss in Batman 3 ruin the "freaks have taken over" aspect of Gotham that Nolan has been pushing?

This is what I want. The mob had their time, bring on the freaks in full force.

Hell no to Rupert Thorne. I hate that fat ****. We got Falcone and Maroni in some Batman films finally...we don't need Thorne. He's essentially a corrupt "business man/corporate guy" who deals/is part of the mob. I never cared for his character in the comics or the animated series. If Nolan were to put him in a third film that would be one of the most boring choices I would have seen from him.

Some people don't think so but I think Nolan has been leading up to letting the freaks run loose in Gotham. Started off slow with BB and just having Scarecrow and at the end of the film the psychos escape from Arkham.

In TDK it had Joker one of the biggest if not THE biggest freak terrorizing Gotham not to mention through the dialogue it basically said what the comics have hinted at/said. That Batman was most likely the cause of the new and psychotic criminal element in Gotham.

Now I know Nolan says he only focuses on the film at hand but when Goyer had said they had worked out a rough outline for three or so films, that definitely leads to possibilites that IF Nolan stuck around for sequels they could have more of Batman's rogues gallery in them.

I don't think the Nolans as well as Goyer are ignorant to the fact that Batman has one of the best group of villians, and wouldn't decide to use more of them. All in all, Nolan handled multiple villains in BB and he did it well as opposed to most other films that have tried, I think he can do it again for a third Batman film.

 

[Steyin]

I would like to see one mob boss or two, but have this film finally really phase them out. I wouldn't mind Rupert Thorne and Tony Zucco in the mix somehow, or maybe a new corrupt mayor?

As for rogues, I want Blackmask, the Penguin and the Ventriloquist. Have Blackmask be the double-agent: businessman and freak mobster, have the Penguin be an arms dealer, nothing more; and have the Ventriloquist be another freak mobster who is already established since the end of TDK, but keep him in the shadows for at least half of the film (referring to him simply as "the boss"). I think the reveal of Wesker/Scarface would be much more dramatic and interesting in that sense.

Anyone else would be more of a cameo role, like Zsasz was; perhaps Firefly or the mention of someone to set up the next film for whomever, like Bane, Catwoman, whoever.

This film should be an all out freak vs remaining mob war with Batman, while still being "hunted", being the only hope for Gotham, so that by stopping it he is "redeemed".

All I know is that I definitely want no Catwoman or Riddler in this film, no love interest, and just PURE Batman, where Bruce is barely seen out of the suit. Also, add in Leslie Thompkins.