Can superheroes ever exist??

[Spade]

No because it would have happened already. And if some genius does get the bright idea to seriously try and become a Batman/Punisher type hero, they won't last long.

...I haven't said that they would. Ever.

Because contrary to comics, police don't take lightly to people taking the law into their own hands, corrupt department or not. And if they can't stop him, which they would but just for arguments sake, the FBI will.

Again, this would be great if I had a say in the vigilantism argument that was going on before.

Get your head out of the comic book world's ass for two seconds and think about it.

"Oh, okai!"

Seriously, did you not read the posts in this thread? I wrote an analysis as to why most comic stipulations would not work within a practical world, even going as far as to detail why real-world applications may be dangerous. But sure, I'm too wrapped up in the comic book world to make sense of real tangible things...

You think that authorities would cooperate with someone like that even if they are trying to help? You have to understand, even if people would get desirable traits that would help them become these heroes, bullets are real. In the real world, one guy can't take out a whole gang of 5 or 6. Most likely the cops wouldn't have to track this hero down, they will probably find him dead in the gutter. And I honestly think there have been people who try this comic book hero bull**** thing and wind up getting themselves killed. Its sad.

That's just the way things go, which is why if you look carefully I haven't participated in the above argument on vigilantes. I feel similarly and don't feel that even with constant effort you would be able to hide your tracks. And even then evasion of the law is still evasion of the law.

 

[Jerry]

It was a general response, not just to you, but on the whole topic. Kind of like how I just said a few posts back. Way to read.

 

[Jerry]

Well as I say, theoretically if you had super powers like Superman or Flash or even Nightcrawler and Banshee you could easily fight crime because your body becomes are dangerous weapon in and of itself. You would possess a trait no one else could or would possess. Therefore you in that scenario could fight crime. However THIS argument (for the last few pages) was against a Batman. A normal human using normal abilities to become a Superhero. Your off trying to show how a hypothetical could not hypothetically happen, which makes no sense. So really your off track. If you have something to say about why a normal human vigilante would not work, that is the topic.

Forensics. There. Thats why a "normal human viglante" would not work. But it wouldn't even come to that, because a "normal human vigilante" would not last very long because as much as people here like to think otherwise, one person CANNOT stop 4 or 5 criminals. Hell probably not even 2 or 3 criminals. Especially if one of them is armed in the least. Yes that means even if you do have a suit like Batman, or fighting abilities similar to him. There is a reason why there aren't any Batman type heroes lurking around in New York or Chicago or whichever major city. It wouldn't work. You would either get caught, or get killed.

 

[AznBABYBANDIT]

lol, dress as hawkman 0_o

 

[hippy fascist]

superpowers in the real world!

 

[The Question]

Well there are two responses to this.

One, unless you're planning on a vagabond type existence (something like that hitman from the homeless shelter) you will be operating outside of a single city. When police set up a sting generally they lead the criminal to them, not the other way around. In other words they'd set up a crime or lead you to a location where you would be caught. Not simply guard the areas where you have been seen (which would be done as well). Plus they have some evidence and intel on you. Witnesses (since you don't kill, victims would serve as testimony) would serve to create an idea of who or what you are. Police would attempt to figure out your mode of transportation, which is pretty easy to discern based on your appearances.

Again. If they don't know exactly where you're going to be at any given time, traps like that would be very difficult to pull off. Also, if your costume is designed properly, the most a description of you could get is you height.

Since your operating at or between 10 and 3 am it's a safe bet not many cars or persons are out in the area. So any report of anything strange (such as a person parking an unmarked automobile in an alley) would be taken into account. Furthermore streetlights in urban areas typically have cameras on them.

In some urban areas, yes. That's why you shouldn't have an unmarked vehicle. Have plenty of identifiable markers. And also have them detatchiuble and replacible. That way, you can switch license plates, and all the police would have to go on is a black sports car or something like that.

Also chances are you'd come in direct contact with operations or criminals being monitored by police and local authorities. They would be hugely detrimental to your secrecy.

Which, again, depends entirely upon how you go about it.

Number two, it's impossible to be totally random. Human's a predictable [to a degree]. Sociology, Political Science and Criminology are all highly advanced fields of study which focus on predicting complex human behavior. They do it fairly well. Don't think or be so foolish that there is not a dozen files 3 inches thick on past vigilante's and there MOs.

It actually is possible to be totally random. Such as, when choosing what patrol rout you're using that night, use some very random mode of choice like picking it out of a hat.

Right now from the little information I have on our faux Vigilante, I can assume and deduce many things. Number one, he would be operating in crime ridden areas and would have no interest or no work in areas with low crime rates.

Well, that's just plain logical. But that doesn't tell anyone about where you live. You could "comute" to these crime ridden areas.

Since you work off rooftops we can assume you need to find crime that is out in the open. That also narrows down our search.

A bit, yes.

Also since the police have files and informants they would have a reasonably good idea of what crimes were going down and where. And they would know what you knew. So unless you are going to just beat up muggers which would be nearly impossible to find, your going to bump into crimes which others have foreknowledge of.

Possibly. However, the police are not that all knowing when it comes to crime. I'm sure one could stay of their radar if they choose their targets carefully.

Furthermore criminals, and your informants would have no bones about selling you out to the police since I would assume there is not much in the way of leinency you can offer them.

True. But I think that the police would be more interested in capturing drug dealers and murderers than a vigilante who hasn't killed anybody. Also, how would they "sell you out?" What information would they have on you?

More to the point, the police are a network, and a lot of those social scientists I mentioned earlier think the police are in fact a "miserably failure" in detering crime (prison and incarceration rates suggest as much). So if a network of officers and intelligence agencies cannot do much in the way of preventing crime I fail to see how a one man can.

As I said, at least he's doing something. And something, last time I checked, is more than nothing.

"One man CAN make a difference" however it is usually only with money and power over many other men that this can be accomplished. Politics and social service are many ways one man can do things. Dressing up like a feral creature is not. The amount you would get accomplished is so miniscule and it would take so much overwhelming work that it would be wasted effort that could have been better applied elsewhere. Drive and will is great, only if intelligently applied though. If you go through the proper channels you can accomplish alot, however if you take a "you against the world" approach you will accomplish nothing.

Not really true. You might not acomplish as much as you could, but you'd still acomplish something. And, as I've said before, a vigilante would not be bogged down by all the rules the police are. As I have said before, wether you believe me or not, illegally obtained evidence can be used in court if the fellow who obtained it isn't a police officer. Trust me. I've talked to actual lawyers about this.

Maybe for a lone guy who broke into your house that's fine. But the likelyhood you will "get the drop on someone" is rather slim. Especially if that someone is in fact a group of somebodies. Flashbangs and gas bombs are great, but no one is going to get in a nice little group for you. They'll spread out, and unless you have a gun handly, you're f***ed. Because those gadgets are only going to serve as a hint at your location, and thats assuming they just don't start firing in every possible direction.

True. But it would still throw them off. I never said something like this would be easy. I just don't think it would be impossible.

Also crime happens fast, and the chance that you'll even have the chance and time available to sneak up on them and take them out before they themselves dissappear is very low.

That's why a stealthy outfit helps. Plus, getting the drop on someone doesn't necessairily mean sneaking up on them stealthily. Sometimes it means getting in there really fast and smacking them down before they have a chance to register what's going on.

Well as I say, theoretically if you had super powers like Superman or Flash or even Nightcrawler and Banshee you could easily fight crime because your body becomes are dangerous weapon in and of itself. You would possess a trait no one else could or would possess. Therefore you in that scenario could fight crime. However THIS argument (for the last few pages) was against a Batman. A normal human using normal abilities to become a Superhero. Your off trying to show how a hypothetical could not hypothetically happen, which makes no sense. So really your off track. If you have something to say about why a normal human vigilante would not work, that is the topic.

Or how it would work.

 

[Space Moose]

Hero's suck. Villans rule.

 

[The Question]

Hero's suck. Villans rule.

And they already kind of exist. Mob bosses, terrorists, serial killers, third world dictators, all kind of fit the super villain mold. Only thing we need now is super powers and it would basically be the same.

 

[Space Moose]

And they already kind of exist. Mob bosses, terrorists, serial killers, third world dictators, all kind of fit the super villain mold. Only thing we need now is super powers and it would basically be the same.

Awesome.

 

[Bill]

I anted to drop this, but alas.....

But it's so fun...

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that if you change tour patrol routs randomly, they'd have no way of knowing where you'd be at any given time to set up a trap like that. And yes, they could set up gaurded deals, but then they probably do that anyway to make sure the cops don't interfere, so I really don't see how it would change anything.

Yes, there would. You're a vigilante who breaks in on drug deals and other criminal activities. I set up my activities in your area and always post my sniper and guards. You either have to attempt to break it up or let me go about my business. And it changes a lot because you lose the element of surprise. Your patrol routes aren't relevent because you're not patrolling while you are attacking a particular crime in progress.

That's why it would be a good idea to by the chemicals seprate from seperate sources.

But that's not going to make them any harder to track. They keep records of purchase orders which have dates, quantities and by whom. It wouldn't be that hard to cross reference that stuff and come up with a pattern.

No, you wouldn't. Really, alot of the weapons could be made at home from easy to afford parts if you know your stuff.

Any job that would allow you to make the money you need for equipment, the tools needed to manufacture your weapons and chems, maintain a domicile that has a "clean room" because any particles that are on scraps of your costume or your weapons that are lost can all be traced and used to gives clues to your location, etc., will be well paying and probably not allow you enough time for your extracurricular activites. You will most likely show up for work with various bruises and wounds that will have to be explained. Any excessive time off to heal will also likewise have to be explained. And don't think you will never need to take time off. That kind of schedule will wear on you even without any exertions from what you are doing. You will also need food, equipment for training, equipment for monitoring your home against intruders(when they DO figure you out), medical supplies when you can't go to the doctor(and there will be many times you can't). As well as adrenaline shots to keep you going when you get so badly wounded that you may not make it to a doctor or your home. That stuff costs a lot of money.

As an aside, if you lose any blood at the scene of a crime, they will know your blood type, have your DNA and a toxicology work up. If you ever visit a hospital, they will then have a comparison to work from and they will find you rather easily from that, because you will be visiting the hospital a few times and you will be bloody from injuries that weren't sustained playing Polo.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Furthermore, to follow up to what Bill was saying, since you don't kill you victims but they have no bones about shooting or stabbing you they will serve as very detrimental witnesses. If the cops find a "victim" of yours who says he shot you it will be pretty easy for them to visit ERs across the town searching for gunshot victims who fit the height/weight profile given.

 

[Space Moose]

. LOVE. LESBIANS.

BWOYAAAAAH!!!!!!!

I watch the 'L Word' on 'Showtime'!

BWOYAAAAAH!!!!!!!

 

[The Question]

Yes, there would. You're a vigilante who breaks in on drug deals and other criminal activities. I set up my activities in your area and always post my sniper and guards. You either have to attempt to break it up or let me go about my business. And it changes a lot because you lose the element of surprise. Your patrol routes aren't relevent because you're not patrolling while you are attacking a particular crime in progress.

The thing is, most criminals wouldn't be able to pull a trap like that off. The only ones who could would, obviously, be the mob. However, saying that the mob would pull a trap like that doesn't say that a vigilante like this is impossible. It actually does the opossite. The only reason the mob would go out of their way to take out someone like that is if they've been succesful in harming their buisness for some time. And, if things get too hit, the vigilante in question can always lay low for a while if things get too hot.

But that's not going to make them any harder to track. They keep records of purchase orders which have dates, quantities and by whom. It wouldn't be that hard to cross reference that stuff and come up with a pattern.

Yes, it would. They'd have to go over hundreds of stores that sell chemicals and try and find a common name. And even then, the vigilante in question could use an alias or simply not give his name.

Any job that would allow you to make the money you need for equipment, the tools needed to manufacture your weapons and chems, maintain a domicile that has a "clean room" because any particles that are on scraps of your costume or your weapons that are lost can all be traced and used to gives clues to your location, etc., will be well paying and probably not allow you enough time for your extracurricular activites.

That's not entirely true. First of all, unless you live in an area that has something unique about it, a clean room wouldn't be entirely necessairy. Most basements aren't any different from any other basements. Also, as I said, some of the weapons could be made from easy to afford over the counter materials, so it's not like you would be spending tjousands of dollars to make just a few smoke grenades. The two aspects of the gear that would require alot of money would be the suit for protective reasons, and the mode of transportation because pruchasing and customising a car is pretty damn expensive.

You will most likely show up for work with various bruises and wounds that will have to be explained.

You're not likely to come in noticebly injured every day. If you're planning things out properly, a majority of the fights you'd be in would end before the other guy has much time to react. That's why a smoke grenade/fhasbang coupled with a taser would be highly useful.

Any excessive time off to heal will also likewise have to be explained.

That would only be necessairy for major injuries, such as breaking your arm.

And don't think you will never need to take time off. That kind of schedule will wear on you even without any exertions from what you are doing.

Which is why it would be smart to lay low every once in a while.

You will also need food,

Food isn't that expensive.

equipment for training,

You can work out with inexpensive materials. Hell, any heavy yet easy to handle object can be used as a weight.

equipment for monitoring your home against intruders(when they DO figure you out),

IF they figure you out. Forensic science is not infallible.

medical supplies when you can't go to the doctor(and there will be many times you can't).

That's why it would be smart to have some kind of support team. Some guy who has medical training who can tend your wounds without you having to go to the hospital.

As well as adrenaline shots to keep you going when you get so badly wounded that you may not make it to a doctor or your home.

That's also where some sort of support team could come in handy. If you're really severely injured, you could call them to pick you up.

As an aside, if you lose any blood at the scene of a crime, they will know your blood type, have your DNA and a toxicology work up. If you ever visit a hospital, they will then have a comparison to work from and they will find you rather easily from that, because you will be visiting the hospital a few times and you will be bloody from injuries that weren't sustained playing Polo.

Which is why having an ally with medical training would be very helpful.

Furthermore, to follow up to what Bill was saying, since you don't kill you victims but they have no bones about shooting or stabbing you they will serve as very detrimental witnesses. If the cops find a "victim" of yours who says he shot you it will be pretty easy for them to visit ERs across the town searching for gunshot victims who fit the height/weight profile given.

Like I said. Know someone who's got some sort of medical training.


Also, I must say something about your arguement. You say that a Punisher style vigilante would work best. I say the opposite. If you think about it, a Punisher style fellow would be much more likely to get caught by the police. A Batman guy, while he is commiting crimes, is only commiting minor ones. At most he'll be craged with breaking and entering. He might not even be charged with assualt depending on the circumstances. If you beat up someone who's mugging someone else, you're not going to be charged with assault. So, while the cops would want to arrest you, they wouldn't spend time, money, and energy on creating some kind of task force to go out of their way and catch you. Compared to the rapists, mobsters, and serial killers out there, you're harmless. But a Punisher type, he's leaving a trail of bodies in his wake. The police would have much more insentive to go out of their way to catch him, since in a sense he's a serial killer himself. Also, with a Batman type, the FBI would probably never bother with it. With a Punisher type, they might. Basically, what I'm saying is: Batman, if arrested, would probably face a few years in jail. The Punisher, if arrested, would be facing the death penalty. Who do you think the police would be more worried about catching?

 

[Space Moose]

The thing is, most criminals wouldn't be able to pull a trap like that off. The only ones who could would, obviously, be the mob. However, saying that the mob would pull a trap like that doesn't say that a vigilante like this is impossible. It actually does the opossite. The only reason the mob would go out of their way to take out someone like that is if they've been succesful in harming their buisness for some time. And, if things get too hit, the vigilante in question can always lay low for a while if things get too hot.



Yes, it would. They'd have to go over hundreds of stores that sell chemicals and try and find a common name. And even then, the vigilante in question could use an alias or simply not give his name.



That's not entirely true. First of all, unless you live in an area that has something unique about it, a clean room wouldn't be entirely necessairy. Most basements aren't any different from any other basements. Also, as I said, some of the weapons could be made from easy to afford over the counter materials, so it's not like you would be spending tjousands of dollars to make just a few smoke grenades. The two aspects of the gear that would require alot of money would be the suit for protective reasons, and the mode of transportation because pruchasing and customising a car is pretty damn expensive.



You're not likely to come in noticebly injured every day. If you're planning things out properly, a majority of the fights you'd be in would end before the other guy has much time to react. That's why a smoke grenade/fhasbang coupled with a taser would be highly useful.



That would only be necessairy for major injuries, such as breaking your arm.



Which is why it would be smart to lay low every once in a while.



Food isn't that expensive.



You can work out with inexpensive materials. Hell, any heavy yet easy to handle object can be used as a weight.



IF they figure you out. Forensic science is not infallible.



That's why it would be smart to have some kind of support team. Some guy who has medical training who can tend your wounds without you having to go to the hospital.



That's also where some sort of support team could come in handy. If you're really severely injured, you could call them to pick you up.



Which is why having an ally with medical training would be very helpful.

Yup.

 

[Bill]

The thing is, most criminals wouldn't be able to pull a trap like that off. The only ones who could would, obviously, be the mob. However, saying that the mob would pull a trap like that doesn't say that a vigilante like this is impossible. It actually does the opossite. The only reason the mob would go out of their way to take out someone like that is if they've been succesful in harming their buisness for some time. And, if things get too hit, the vigilante in question can always lay low for a while if things get too hot.

Again, you're underestimating the criminal element. Actually, setting up a sniper guarded location isn't that hard. It's very simple. The hard part is whether or not the hero will show up. The dark will not hide you with thermals and nvg's and these things are not difficult to obtain at all.

Actually, I don't think your hero will last even this long. You've skimped on his training, equipment and his ability to know what he needs to know to survive. A guy with a big stick, some gas and FB grenades, tazer gun and a scary costume might get the drop on one guy if he's lucky enough to have one walk under him in a dark alley at the appropriate time, but not only will things escalate quickly, it only takes one well-placed bullet or one guy who isn't scared or bothered by gas or FB's, especially undependable homemade ones.

You've also made a number of assumptions that will get you killed. You're assuming that all criminals are cowards, easily intimidated, unarmed, alone, and will feel the need to walk into dark, close places and do their business there waiting to be attacked. If you work predominately at night, everyone except muggers and robbers will then work during the day. In fact, muggers and robbers are probably what you'll be relegated to handling if you're lucky enough to catch them in the act. And drug dealers aren't the only criminals out there, even though we've been discussing them. There are also extortionists, bullies, and gangs(who will all be carrying guns, some of them full auto.) to name a few. This is what you're going to be facing night in and night out. And you're going to have to have a contingency method for them all. Thousands of scenarios that will allow the hero to escape relatively unscathed while facing a multitude of guns, knives and blunt objects armed with gas and flashbangs, a big stick and a tazer gun.

Yes, it would. They'd have to go over hundreds of stores that sell chemicals and try and find a common name. And even then, the vigilante in question could use an alias or simply not give his name.

No, they wouldn't have to go to hundreds of stores at all. With these nifty things called computers, they could check all that out and eliminate real names from the fake pretty easily. And a number of fake names will call attention to certain purchases. They only need to look for a few chems, not many. They'll know exactly what they're looking for by what you leave behind.

That's not entirely true. First of all, unless you live in an area that has something unique about it, a clean room wouldn't be entirely necessairy. Most basements aren't any different from any other basements. Also, as I said, some of the weapons could be made from easy to afford over the counter materials, so it's not like you would be spending tjousands of dollars to make just a few smoke grenades. The two aspects of the gear that would require alot of money would be the suit for protective reasons, and the mode of transportation because pruchasing and customising a car is pretty damn expensive.

You're going to need more than just a few grenades. The materials are still going to have to be purchased and the method of delivery objects are still going to have to be manufactured. And you can't skinp on them too much because they are going to have to be stable devices capable of being bounced and jostled and surviving in a scuffle and movement in and around the various obstacles of your city.

You're not likely to come in noticebly injured every day. If you're planning things out properly, a majority of the fights you'd be in would end before the other guy has much time to react. That's why a smoke grenade/fhasbang coupled with a taser would be highly useful.

That would only be necessairy for major injuries, such as breaking your arm.

Which is why it would be smart to lay low every once in a while.

Food isn't that expensive.

You can work out with inexpensive materials. Hell, any heavy yet easy to handle object can be used as a weight.

Now I know why these get so long... Answer them in a paragraph instead of separately.

You're going to need more than just simple weight training. Your diet will have to consist of foods that will sustain your lifestyle, and it ain't cheap. And you still think you'll be facing "guy". It will be more like "guys" armed with "guns", and you'll be dealing with more injuries that you are allowing for no matter how much you planned. It's not like in the movies where the bad guys always miss their target.

That's why it would be smart to have some kind of support team. Some guy who has medical training who can tend your wounds without you having to go to the hospital.
That's also where some sort of support team could come in handy. If you're really severely injured, you could call them to pick you up.
Which is why having an ally with medical training would be very helpful.
Like I said. Know someone who's got some sort of medical training.

Now you've got other variables involved. Can they get you out? When you get injured severely, and it will happen, they will have to be on standby to immediate assist, probably rescue. You're not going to be marching out of the scrape that hurt you, and things aren't like in the movies and comics where the hero gets lucky enough to knock everyone unconscious who would kill him before he gives out.

 

[Space Moose]

Again, you're underestimating the criminal element. Actually, setting up a sniper guarded location isn't that hard. It's very simple. The hard part is whether or not the hero will show up. The dark will not hide you with thermals and nvg's and these things are not difficult to obtain at all.

Actually, I don't think your hero will last even this long. You've skimped on his training, equipment and his ability to know what he needs to know to survive. A guy with a big stick, some gas and FB grenades, tazer gun and a scary costume might get the drop on one guy if he's lucky enough to have one walk under him in a dark alley at the appropriate time, but not only will things escalate quickly, it only takes one well-placed bullet or one guy who isn't scared or bothered by gas or FB's, especially undependable homemade ones.

You've also made a number of assumptions that will get you killed. You're assuming that all criminals are cowards, easily intimidated, unarmed, alone, and will feel the need to walk into dark, close places and do their business there waiting to be attacked. If you work predominately at night, everyone except muggers and robbers will then work during the day. In fact, muggers and robbers are probably what you'll be relegated to handling if you're lucky enough to catch them in the act. And drug dealers aren't the only criminals out there, even though we've been discussing them. There are also extortionists, bullies, and gangs(who will all be carrying guns, some of them full auto.) to name a few. This is what you're going to be facing night in and night out. And you're going to have to have a contingency method for them all. Thousands of scenarios that will allow the hero to escape relatively unscathed while facing a multitude of guns, knives and blunt objects armed with gas and flashbangs, a big stick and a tazer gun.



No, they wouldn't have to go to hundreds of stores at all. With these nifty things called computers, they could check all that out and eliminate real names from the fake pretty easily. And a number of fake names will call attention to certain purchases. They only need to look for a few chems, not many. They'll know exactly what they're looking for by what you leave behind.



You're going to need more than just a few grenades. The materials are still going to have to be purchased and the method of delivery objects are still going to have to be manufactured. And you can't skinp on them too much because they are going to have to be stable devices capable of being bounced and jostled and surviving in a scuffle and movement in and around the various obstacles of your city.



Now I know why these get so long... Answer them in a paragraph instead of separately.

You're going to need more than just simple weight training. Your diet will have to consist of foods that will sustain your lifestyle, and it ain't cheap. And you still think you'll be facing "guy". It will be more like "guys" armed with "guns", and you'll be dealing with more injuries that you are allowing for no matter how much you planned. It's not like in the movies where the bad guys always miss their target.




Now you've got other variables involved. Can they get you out? When you get injured severely, and it will happen, they will have to be on standby to immediate assist, probably rescue. You're not going to be marching out of the scrape that hurt you, and things aren't like in the movies and comics where the hero gets lucky enough to knock everyone unconscious who would kill him before he gives out.

Exactly.

 

[The Question]

Again, you're underestimating the criminal element. Actually, setting up a sniper guarded location isn't that hard. It's very simple. The hard part is whether or not the hero will show up. The dark will not hide you with thermals and nvg's and these things are not difficult to obtain at all.

I'm not under estimating them. I think you're over estimating them. I'm not saying that they wouldn't try and set some sort of trap, and I;m not saying that it wouldn't work. But it might not. Especially since, in the entirety of a city, the likelyhood of one guy stepping into your trap is small. Even if it's been narrowed down to one neighborhood. And, like I said, if things get too hot, our vigilante in question could always law low for a while.

Actually, I don't think your hero will last even this long. You've skimped on his training,

No, I haven't. You still haven't explained to me how knowing a plethora of martial arts styles would make him better equipt than simply being highly skilled at a few.

equipment

Not every crime fighter would be capable of spending millions on high tech equipment. Alot of the time, they'd have to make their gear out of whatever they could afford.

and his ability to know what he needs to know to survive.

What do you mean?

A guy with a big stick, some gas and FB grenades, tazer gun and a scary costume might get the drop on one guy if he's lucky enough to have one walk under him in a dark alley at the appropriate time, but not only will things escalate quickly, it only takes one well-placed bullet or one guy who isn't scared or bothered by gas or FB's, especially undependable homemade ones.

First off, how can someone not be bothered by gas or FBs? Flashbangs blind you, and depending on what type of gass you use, the gas grenades might leave you unable to breathe properly. The point of the flashbangs and gas grenades is to leave your target disoriented enough to take them out quickly.

You've also made a number of assumptions that will get you killed. You're assuming that all criminals are cowards, easily intimidated, unarmed, alone, and will feel the need to walk into dark, close places and do their business there waiting to be attacked.

No, I'm not. I've never said that they're all cowards. However, most people, if they meet something large and feral in the dark that they can't see properly, will be rather scared. I've never said that they would be unarmed. It would be imperetive to take out or disarm your target before they can react, which is why a surprise atack or use of flashbangs and smoke grenades would be the most helpful course of action. A taser would also be highly useful because one hit wth it and they're down. Also, I've never assumed that they would be alone. I think that muggers and people of those variety would be alone or in pairs some of the time. Yes, there would be criminals in groups, but I came up with the flashbang/taser plan specifically for the sake of groups. Drop a flashbang and smoke grenade, most of them will be highly disoriented. Use a taser to take them out very quickly before they can react.

If you work predominately at night, everyone except muggers and robbers will then work during the day.

Not always. Some of them can't because there are too many people around during the day.

In fact, muggers and robbers are probably what you'll be relegated to handling if you're lucky enough to catch them in the act.

I've said many times that the most likely form of crime a vigilante would come across would be muggings.

And drug dealers aren't the only criminals out there, even though we've been discussing them.

Never said they were. I only mentioned them because they're some of the easier ones to catch in the act.

There are also extortionists, bullies, and gangs(who will all be carrying guns, some of them full auto.) to name a few. This is what you're going to be facing night in and night out. And you're going to have to have a contingency method for them all. Thousands of scenarios that will allow the hero to escape relatively unscathed while facing a multitude of guns, knives and blunt objects armed with gas and flashbangs, a big stick and a tazer gun.

Yeah. I know this. But I still wouldn;t say it's impossible. This is also where a support team would come in handy. Have someone in contact with to Oracle style who can give you possible escape routs if things get too hot.

No, they wouldn't have to go to hundreds of stores at all.

I never said they would actually physically go to them.

With these nifty things called computers, they could check all that out and eliminate real names from the fake pretty easily.

They'd still have to go through hundreds of files. And how would they be able to tell fake names from real ones?

And a number of fake names will call attention to certain purchases. They only need to look for a few chems, not many. They'll know exactly what they're looking for by what you leave behind.

As I said, you could simply not give a name at all and just buy what you need.

You're going to need more than just a few grenades.

I meant at a time.

The materials are still going to have to be purchased and the method of delivery objects are still going to have to be manufactured. And you can't skinp on them too much because they are going to have to be stable devices capable of being bounced and jostled and surviving in a scuffle and movement in and around the various obstacles of your city.

True. Though, from what I've learned (and I admit, it's propably far less than some people), making such devices aren't as hard as you'd think. This is also another place where some kind of support team could come in handy. Having someone more mechanically skilled to help you would make things easier. Also, with a support team, you and your allies could each go to purchase supplied seperately.

Now I know why these get so long... Answer them in a paragraph instead of separately.

But I find that seperately is easier to read.

You're going to need more than just simple weight training. Your diet will have to consist of foods that will sustain your lifestyle, and it ain't cheap.

If you're trying to be one of the greatest athletes on the planet, yes. But that, I think, is impractical simply because it eats up your funds. You can excersize without expensive equipment. And really, you can eat right and not buy all those fancy protein shakes. Fruits, vegitables, cutting down on empty calories, that stuff would be the easiest to afford and would get you to a point where you stand a good chance. You won't be the single best on the planet, but you wouldn't need to be. You'd simply need to be very very good.

And you still think you'll be facing "guy".

No, I don't. In fact, I never once said that.

It will be more like "guys" armed with "guns",

I know that. I never once denied that. Which, as I have said, is why tactics are very important. Try and get the drop on them, use weapons that can confuse them, and use something like a taser that can take them out very quickly.

and you'll be dealing with more injuries that you are allowing for no matter how much you planned. It's not like in the movies where the bad guys always miss their target.

They don't always hit it, either. Especially when they're chocking on gas and temporarily blinded.

Now you've got other variables involved. Can they get you out? When you get injured severely, and it will happen, they will have to be on standby to immediate assist, probably rescue.

Of course those are variables that would have to be taken into account. I never once claimed that this would be a walk in the park.

 

[Whirlysplat]

COULD A SUPERHERO EVER EXIST?

Whirly's thoughts

Yes and No.

Yes, the ability to produce abilities beyond an average individual are possible. Be it through technology e.g. The Darpa prototype exoskeleton (not for combat but it would allow heavy weapons to be carried).

http://www.philoneist.com/50226711/first_military_exoskeleton_reaches_prototype.php

[I]or through drugs[/I]

increased endurance, e.g. blood doping with erythropoietin (EPO).
Increased strength, e.g. A steroid stack and a correct training regime.

or in the future

baseline recombinant modification

For instance increased efficiency of organs etc.

A possible example of this would someone who had a cardio system as efficient as top endurance athletes, who normally have a large heart for body size which results in a very low resting heart rate, this is termed "bradycardia" and results in a large stroke volume capacity. Top endurance athletes can have a resting HR of as low as 35 - 40 this is basicallly like a v12 engine in a car. If this could be engineered for, with all the quality plumbing that goes with it, (note to other board members low RH is not always a good thing and can in some people indicate a number of heart problems) and added to a body with an improved level of neuro muscular recruitment for increased numbers of both fast and slow twitch muscles. Add to this top reaction times and reflexes you would be on the way to the original kind of things Cap could do in the 40's before the spate of upgraded feats.

None of this is impossible.

So why the No? Well people are not invulnerable or bullet proof and noone rights life. A "real life" Superhero is likely to have a shorter life expectancy than a WWI fighter ace no matter his abilities within the realms of reality.

- Whirly

 

[Spade]

It was a general response, not just to you, but on the whole topic. Kind of like how I just said a few posts back. Way to read.

ShadowBoxing's one of the smartest people on the Hype, and even he realized before I even posted the gist of what I was saying with equal confusion as to what you were going on about. Way to rant.

So why the No? Well people are not invulnerable or bullet proof and noone rights life. A "real life" Superhero is likely to have a shorter life expectancy than a WWI fighter ace no matter his abilities within the realms of reality.

It's to be expected. Plus, if it hasn't been mentioned before, I would think that even for people trained and conditioned for such a task it would be an overwhelming temptation to throw the danger you'd put on yourself on a task like this to the winds and abuse said powers. Realistically speaking, unless they were engineered with a failsafe/ weakness could a real-life rogue superhero be so easily stopped?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I'm not under estimating them. I think you're over estimating them. I'm not saying that they wouldn't try and set some sort of trap, and I;m not saying that it wouldn't work. But it might not. Especially since, in the entirety of a city, the likelyhood of one guy stepping into your trap is small. Even if it's been narrowed down to one neighborhood. And, like I said, if things get too hot, our vigilante in question could always law low for a while.

No you are underestimating them. The Mob and organized criminals take extreme measures against people who don't pay them on time. And they tend to "own" their turf. The North End in Boston for example is essentially run by the Mafia. One guy who used to get his hair cut at my Barber started selling drugs without the consent of the locals. He dissappeared. That's what will happen to you. All he did was talk to the wrong person, or sell drugs to the wrong guy and like a magic trick "poof" he was gone.

Now, he was not a rich man, and I sincerely doubt he ever met the locals (or he would have been smart enough to not sell in the first place). So without knowing who he was, he was axed.

No, I haven't. You still haven't explained to me how knowing a plethora of martial arts styles would make him better equipt than simply being highly skilled at a few.

Have you ever been in a fight, I mean a real fight. They are fast. You'd have to react within ticks of a second. Not only that you'd have to know how to redirect the motion of an attacker in case you were jumped. Since most fights go to the ground wrestling within 30 seconds of the first punch, you'd need to be able to plan for that. Since you'd need to incapacitate opponents on a fairly regular basis, you'd need some pressure point training.

So right now for speed we're talking some sort of Kick Boxing or Krav Maga. Akido, Judo and Hi Rang Do will also be necessary since they will teach you the basics of ground and close quarter combat. Now unless your willing to pay for a Gym membership along with at least one of two full contact/ full fighting training martial arts studios your going to severely under trained in that department.

Second your going to have to be trained in some form of hunting/tracking. Stealth. And of course battle tactics. Your guess is as good as mine as to where you can get that training. To top it off all these classes and learning will attract the attention of the authorities if you were to ever dawn a costume. As Bill pointed out it would be pretty easy to narrow down who would be skilled enough to wage a one man war on crime. Your best bet would be to become a missing person like Bruce Wayne, however even a ten year abscence or less would attract the attention of authorities.

Furthermore this training leaves little if any time for school and leisure. Leisure is gone for sure. And a lack of traditional schooling is pretty much going to ruin your chances at getting a job capable of paying for your lifestyle.

Not every crime fighter would be capable of spending millions on high tech equipment. Alot of the time, they'd have to make their gear out of whatever they could afford.

That would be great except criminals do have money to spend on automatic weaponry, bombs, hitmen and other weaponry. If you think big stick and tazer with intimidate or be effective against say an oozie, then you're a dead man.

If you aren't using guns you better hope the equipment you use is top of the line.

First off, how can someone not be bothered by gas or FBs? Flashbangs blind you, and depending on what type of gass you use, the gas grenades might leave you unable to breathe properly. The point of the flashbangs and gas grenades is to leave your target disoriented enough to take them out quickly.

Actually flashbangs don't blind anyone, there a means of distraction, usually halting you long enough of diverting your attention. However people who use flashbangs and gas pellets also use guns.

Considering the size of the weapons you'd be carrying as well, these gas bombs and FBs won't be very big. Flareguns and gas bombs are still fairly large and lots are needed to contain gangs. There is a reason more than one riot patrolman shows up to gang shootouts.

No, I'm not. I've never said that they're all cowards. However, most people, if they meet something large and feral in the dark that they can't see properly, will be rather scared.

Maybe if your a suburban kid. But adults and especially people who spend their lives in poverty would not be. They've [criminals] have seen far scarier things in their lives. The fact that they are desperate enough to kill and steal proves how fearless most of them are.

I've never said that they would be unarmed. It would be imperetive to take out or disarm your target before they can react

I had a gun pulled on me, the chance you can react in time is rather slim.

which is why a surprise atack or use of flashbangs and smoke grenades would be the most helpful course of action.

Actually people who kill for the Government rarely ever would do something so stupid as to give their position away with flashbangs and gas. I'd just fire in the direction it came from.

A taser would also be highly useful because one hit wth it and they're down.

I've seen several people withstand tazer hits. This becomes even more of a problem when you realize how prevelant PCP use is during crimes.

Also, I've never assumed that they would be alone. I think that muggers and people of those variety would be alone or in pairs some of the time. Yes, there would be criminals in groups, but I came up with the flashbang/taser plan specifically for the sake of groups. Drop a flashbang and smoke grenade, most of them will be highly disoriented. Use a taser to take them out very quickly before they can react.

But they will react quickly, a lot quicker than one person can.

I've said many times that the most likely form of crime a vigilante would come across would be muggings.

You'd never find a mugging. Hence why people get mugged, it's an unexpected and unpredictable crime.

Yeah. I know this. But I still wouldn;t say it's impossible. This is also where a support team would come in handy. Have someone in contact with to Oracle style who can give you possible escape routs if things get too hot.

Your stretching this. Just how rich and high profile are you that you can afford all this equipment and a "pit crew".

They'd still have to go through hundreds of files. And how would they be able to tell fake names from real ones?

Cross referencing names with city records.

As I said, you could simply not give a name at all and just buy what you need.

You'd have to order anything you bought. The weaponry and equipment you'd need is not sold in stores generally. Even if it was, and there would be very few stores, the cops would just go around to said stores and dealers and ask who they had sold to. Description would be ample evidence.

 

[Grim Goblin]

Ok, I know, fighting crime is a good and noble thing etc...etc.... but exactly who in their right mind would want to live a super-hero's life?

Let's look at what it means to be a super-hero:


-You DO need to be physically fit. Not necessarily buff (although that doesn't hurt) but at least fit. So we're looking at serious training everyday with the necessary cost of time, equipment etc... that it requires.

-You need to work to pay for food, rent, and all the normal costs of life so a regular day job is a must (unless you're a billionaire orphan).

-Unless you're some sort of social reject, you have friends, maybe a spouse, family etc... All people that require some of your time and energy ESPECIALLY if you have kids! And they're all people that you DO want to spent time with too.

- You need equipment. Equipment requires more money. You also need to stay anonymous while you're purchasing what you need. That means you'll need disguises which cost MORE money. You need time to do some maintenance on all your stuff too.

-You need some good cover story to explain injuries. Even little bruises and cuts are going to raise some questions if they are a frequent occurence.

-Unless you're stupid, you need a hideout where you can change to your civies. Unless you want to risk people following you home because unlike comics, you're either on foot or you're driving. neither of which is really tough to follow.

-Now after your done working out, finished your day at work and spent some time with your significant other, it's time to patrol, which takes more of your time and energy.

-You need enough hours of sleep to do it all over the next day.

yeah, crime fighting is nice and all, but unless you're solely dedicated to that (and I mean a Batman level of dedication) you're going to get fed up with that life or burn out really quickly....providing you don't die on you're first mugging.

So I guess it's possible to do it. Extremely unlikely and quite sad for those that would manage, but possible.

 

[The Question]

No you are underestimating them. The Mob and organized criminals take extreme measures against people who don't pay them on time. And they tend to "own" their turf. The North End in Boston for example is essentially run by the Mafia. One guy who used to get his hair cut at my Barber started selling drugs without the consent of the locals. He dissappeared. That's what will happen to you. All he did was talk to the wrong person, or sell drugs to the wrong guy and like a magic trick "poof" he was gone.

True. But they knew who that guy was. As I said, you can't order a hit on someone when you don't know who they are, where they live, or what they look like. Now, I agree, they would probably try and set a trap for a vigilante if he's been particularly succesful against them. But, as I said, a vigilante could lay low for a while if things got too hot.

Now, he was not a rich man, and I sincerely doubt he ever met the locals (or he would have been smart enough to not sell in the first place). So without knowing who he was, he was axed.

That's not the same. Obviously, people would know his name and where he deals. It probably wouldn't be too hard to find him. With a vigilante, they'd have very little to go on. Not even any real physical description.

Have you ever been in a fight, I mean a real fight. They are fast. You'd have to react within ticks of a second. Not only that you'd have to know how to redirect the motion of an attacker in case you were jumped. Since most fights go to the ground wrestling within 30 seconds of the first punch, you'd need to be able to plan for that. Since you'd need to incapacitate opponents on a fairly regular basis, you'd need some pressure point training.

Or, as I said, you could carry a taser. That puts someone down very quickly.

So right now for speed we're talking some sort of Kick Boxing or Krav Maga. Akido, Judo and Hi Rang Do will also be necessary since they will teach you the basics of ground and close quarter combat. Now unless your willing to pay for a Gym membership along with at least one of two full contact/ full fighting training martial arts studios your going to severely under trained in that department.

Why would you need to train in all of those? Now, I'm hardly an expert on the matter, but I'd think you'd only need to train in a few styles that cover the areas you need. And really, I'd think military combat training would work best. It's designed to be learned quickly and takes the best moves from specific styles and encorperates them in a style that's meant for optimum practicality.

Second your going to have to be trained in some form of hunting/tracking. Stealth. And of course battle tactics. Your guess is as good as mine as to where you can get that training.

I'd think the best rout would be to find someone with those skills who'd be capable of teaching you, like a former high ranking military officer. Of course, you'd need to find one who could keep your secret.

To top it off all these classes and learning will attract the attention of the authorities if you were to ever dawn a costume. As Bill pointed out it would be pretty easy to narrow down who would be skilled enough to wage a one man war on crime. Your best bet would be to become a missing person like Bruce Wayne, however even a ten year abscence or less would attract the attention of authorities.

Or, you could train without keeping any easily accesible record of it. Like I said, finding someone capable of training you who would refrain from telling others at your request would be the best way to go.

Furthermore this training leaves little if any time for school and leisure. Leisure is gone for sure. And a lack of traditional schooling is pretty much going to ruin your chances at getting a job capable of paying for your lifestyle.

You could start training after you've graduated. And take some kind of job with more flexible hours if you're able.

That would be great except criminals do have money to spend on automatic weaponry, bombs, hitmen and other weaponry. If you think big stick and tazer with intimidate or be effective against say an oozie, then you're a dead man.

Not every criminal does. Hell, I highly doubt many carry bombs with them everywhere they go. As for hitmen, as I said, they'd have to find you to kill you, and that would be the tricky part. And, as I have said, the flashbangs and gas grenades are brought up for a reason. I doubt anyone could hit a target if they're blinded and choking on gas. The FBs and gas bombs are meant to disorient them long enough for you to take them out.

If you aren't using guns you better hope the equipment you use is top of the line.

And not everyone would be able to atain top of the line equipment. That is, again, why I brought up the support team. Getting someone who really knows their stuff when it comes to chemistry and mechanics gives you a better chance with the gear.

Actually flashbangs don't blind anyone, there a means of distraction, usually halting you long enough of diverting your attention. However people who use flashbangs and gas pellets also use guns.

Actually, the flashbang does blind you for about five seconds. Not much, I know, but it still leaves you very disoriented. Especially if you're choking on gas at the same time.

Considering the size of the weapons you'd be carrying as well, these gas bombs and FBs won't be very big. Flareguns and gas bombs are still fairly large and lots are needed to contain gangs. There is a reason more than one riot patrolman shows up to gang shootouts.

I wouldn't expect out vigilante to be taking on groups of ten to twenty people in one sitting.

Maybe if your a suburban kid. But adults and especially people who spend their lives in poverty would not be. They've [criminals] have seen far scarier things in their lives. The fact that they are desperate enough to kill and steal proves how fearless most of them are.

That doesn't make them fearless. It just makes them desperate. And a shadowy monster-like figure is scary to most people on some level.

I had a gun pulled on me, the chance you can react in time is rather slim.

Which is why I've brought up deterents such as flash bangs and gas grenades several times. Also, if you're the one to get the drop on them, you do have a slight edge.

Actually people who kill for the Government rarely ever would do something so stupid as to give their position away with flashbangs and gas. I'd just fire in the direction it came from.

Which is why, imediately after throwing the grenade, changing your possition would be a smart idea.

I've seen several people withstand tazer hits. This becomes even more of a problem when you realize how prevelant PCP use is during crimes.

True.

But they will react quickly, a lot quicker than one person can.

A group of people who can barely breath and who've been temporarily blinded won't react as quickly as one person who's perfect fine. Add onto thay body armor, a taser, and some sort of bludgioning weapon, plus enough training to make you skilled and fast in combat, and you'd stand a decent chance.

You'd never find a mugging. Hence why people get mugged, it's an unexpected and unpredictable crime.

I wouldn't say never. You'd come across some during your tenure. Maybe a few and maybe alot, but at least, as I've said, you'd be doing something.

Your stretching this. Just how rich and high profile are you that you can afford all this equipment and a "pit crew".

What if you're not paying them? They could be doing this pro bono like you are or as a favor.

Cross referencing names with city records.

And what if your name doesn't apear on an unusual number of city records?

You'd have to order anything you bought. The weaponry and equipment you'd need is not sold in stores generally. Even if it was, and there would be very few stores, the cops would just go around to said stores and dealers and ask who they had sold to. Description would be ample evidence.

That's why many of the devices would have to be built by the vigilante or a close associate with the proper skills, and the materials would be ordered seperately.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The thing is, most criminals wouldn't be able to pull a trap like that off. The only ones who could would, obviously, be the mob. However, saying that the mob would pull a trap like that doesn't say that a vigilante like this is impossible. It actually does the opossite. The only reason the mob would go out of their way to take out someone like that is if they've been succesful in harming their buisness for some time. And, if things get too hit, the vigilante in question can always lay low for a while if things get too hot.

How would you know if things get "hot". Because really one day they'll show up at your door and kill you.

Yes, it would. They'd have to go over hundreds of stores that sell chemicals and try and find a common name. And even then, the vigilante in question could use an alias or simply not give his name.

You would be among a scant few buying those chemicals. It would be pretty easy for me to search the database of chemicals sold in the city over the course of a week or so. Your behavior is pretty supicious and someone would enevitably ID you.

Also the records of your bank transactions would be pretty apparent to anyone. If you ever bough supplies that needed to be ordered your need a name for credit informations. Major ditto for a car. Then you'd need to make the stuff, which would probably call attention to your place of residence since those gases let off fumes.

That's not entirely true. First of all, unless you live in an area that has something unique about it, a clean room wouldn't be entirely necessairy. Most basements aren't any different from any other basements. Also, as I said, some of the weapons could be made from easy to afford over the counter materials, so it's not like you would be spending tjousands of dollars to make just a few smoke grenades. The two aspects of the gear that would require alot of money would be the suit for protective reasons, and the mode of transportation because pruchasing and customising a car is pretty damn expensive.

Between comics, school and training I am almost broke at the end of the week and I make 35 thousand a year. So between a car, weapons, training, insurance, ER visits, equipment, various expenses, housing a board (something with a basement apparently), and a whole nother set of expenses to maintain the appearance of a normal life your looking at over six figures. Plus, you'll need a job that affords you scads of free time.

You're not likely to come in noticebly injured every day.

When I boxed I was noticably injured alot. When I played Rugby very seldom did I not have bloody spots on my arms and legs.

If you're planning things out properly, a majority of the fights you'd be in would end before the other guy has much time to react.

You've obviously never fought anyone. Reaction time to fights is EXTREMELY FAST GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. I rarely see people ever get taken out in one hit. Not even a tazer will do that.

That's why a smoke grenade/fhasbang coupled with a taser would be highly useful.

Their semi-automatics are far more useful.

That would only be necessairy for major injuries, such as breaking your arm.

Breaking your arm does not constitute a major injury. Getting shot, stabbed, and losing appendages and burns will be your major injuries.

Which is why it would be smart to lay low every once in a while.

So this supports why it's a waste of time. You could accomplish much more through sane methods of crime prevention where you don't have to lay low.

Food isn't that expensive.

Really, thats news to me, because as an athlete I spend 100 bucks a week on food.

You can work out with inexpensive materials. Hell, any heavy yet easy to handle object can be used as a weight.

Now this borders on insulting. I train very hard for my physique and any heavy yet easy to handle material can not be used as a weight. Their is a wide variety of techniques and methods that go into weight training cross training. Just picking up some heavy damn object doesn't cut it.

IF

they figure you out. Forensic science is not infallible.

They will. Forensic science can catch people fairly fast. If you don't understand, I suggest you do some research. The police cast a much wider net than you give them credit for.

That's why it would be smart to have some kind of support team. Some guy who has medical training who can tend your wounds without you having to go to the hospital.

If your shot or stabbed deep enough you go into a state called shock. You will in essence piss your pants and pass out from the pain. This would happen to anyone who is not used to getting shot or has not experienced a vast amount of pain. This is also part of the reason cops have back up.

However it is highly unlikely you would survive getting shot. Because if you are acting alone, the criminal is not going to wait for you to page your friend to shoot you again.

Like I said. Know someone who's got some sort of medical training.

You won't have time. Combat medicine needs to be preformed in the field, unless you have some way of dragging your ass back to your cave.

Also, I must say something about your arguement. You say that a Punisher style vigilante would work best. I say the opposite. If you think about it, a Punisher style fellow would be much more likely to get caught by the police. A Batman guy, while he is commiting crimes, is only commiting minor ones. At most he'll be craged with breaking and entering. He might not even be charged with assualt depending on the circumstances. If you beat up someone who's mugging someone else, you're not going to be charged with assault. So, while the cops would want to arrest you, they wouldn't spend time, money, and energy on creating some kind of task force to go out of their way and catch you. Compared to the rapists, mobsters, and serial killers out there, you're harmless. But a Punisher type, he's leaving a trail of bodies in his wake. The police would have much more insentive to go out of their way to catch him, since in a sense he's a serial killer himself. Also, with a Batman type, the FBI would probably never bother with it. With a Punisher type, they might. Basically, what I'm saying is: Batman, if arrested, would probably face a few years in jail. The Punisher, if arrested, would be facing the death penalty. Who do you think the police would be more worried about catching?

He would be caught, eventually, but he would have a longer shelf life than a Batman. Since he would kill all his witnesses in essence. He lives completely under the radar. He could essentially steal all his weaponry from the people he kills. Mercenaries and Hitmen already exist, and several people in the past have taken revenge on the mafia, so Punishers have come and gone already.

Guns make a huge difference at how effective you are at doing your business.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

No you are underestimating them. The Mob and organized criminals take extreme measures against people who don't pay them on time. And they tend to "own" their turf. The North End in Boston for example is essentially run by the Mafia. One guy who used to get his hair cut at my Barber started selling drugs without the consent of the locals. He dissappeared. That's what will happen to you. All he did was talk to the wrong person, or sell drugs to the wrong guy and like a magic trick "poof" he was gone.

Organized crime is extremely efficient. Sometimes more efficient than the police trying to stop them. So I can easily see the mob overcoming someone, or tracing and killing them. Question made a comment about how the mob won't know who you are. Remember what I said about efficiency? They don't rove in groups and get their asses handed to them over and over, eventually, they have a look out, and follow the poor guy home, and usually kill him there. And with the amount they'd probably have looking for you, chances are that you won't get them all.

Have you ever been in a fight, I mean a real fight. They are fast. You'd have to react within ticks of a second. Not only that you'd have to know how to redirect the motion of an attacker in case you were jumped. Since most fights go to the ground wrestling within 30 seconds of the first punch, you'd need to be able to plan for that. Since you'd need to incapacitate opponents on a fairly regular basis, you'd need some pressure point training.

To this, I'll agree. Fights with multiple jacked up opponents usually doesn't take longer than a minute or two on either end. If you know you're stuff, fairly proficiently, you SHOULD be able to just make it out alive, with one or two of them down. But like Shadow said, untrained fighters usually pull an opponent to the ground and slug them, so knowing how to manage a fight within milliseconds is crucial.

So right now for speed we're talking some sort of Kick Boxing or Krav Maga. Akido, Judo and Hi Rang Do will also be necessary since they will teach you the basics of ground and close quarter combat. Now unless your willing to pay for a Gym membership along with at least one of two full contact/ full fighting training martial arts studios your going to severely under trained in that department.

However, these many martial arts is unnecessary.

Second your going to have to be trained in some form of hunting/tracking. Stealth. And of course battle tactics. Your guess is as good as mine as to where you can get that training. To top it off all these classes and learning will attract the attention of the authorities if you were to ever dawn a costume. As Bill pointed out it would be pretty easy to narrow down who would be skilled enough to wage a one man war on crime. Your best bet would be to become a missing person like Bruce Wayne, however even a ten year abscence or less would attract the attention of authorities.

I agree with Question that this isn't the most trackable thing.

Furthermore this training leaves little if any time for school and leisure. Leisure is gone for sure. And a lack of traditional schooling is pretty much going to ruin your chances at getting a job capable of paying for your lifestyle.

If you're a hero, then thse things should be something you're willing to forgo.

That would be great except criminals do have money to spend on automatic weaponry, bombs, hitmen and other weaponry. If you think big stick and tazer with intimidate or be effective against say an oozie, then you're a dead man.

The mafia, sure, but not most crime. And doing the whole gun on man fight isn't SO hard, if you plan ahead.

If you aren't using guns you better hope the equipment you use is top of the line.

I'll agree with this one, though trickery and forethought can defeat guns as well. They're only as effective as the user.

Actually flashbangs don't blind anyone, there a means of distraction, usually halting you long enough of diverting your attention. However people who use flashbangs and gas pellets also use guns.

Agreed. Though those people usually are trying to KILL their targets half the time.

Considering the size of the weapons you'd be carrying as well, these gas bombs and FBs won't be very big. Flareguns and gas bombs are still fairly large and lots are needed to contain gangs. There is a reason more than one riot patrolman shows up to gang shootouts.

You can shrink those down to a few feet of distraction, just enough to do what needs to be done, not crowd suppressant style. And multi policeman show up usually to gang shootouts for reasons of a potential fight. Though I agree.

Maybe if your a suburban kid. But adults and especially people who spend their lives in poverty would not be. They've [criminals] have seen far scarier things in their lives. The fact that they are desperate enough to kill and steal proves how fearless most of them are.

Actually, a lot of crime like this is committed needlessly. This is more of pride/stupidity that causes a ton of these crimes.

I had a gun pulled on me, the chance you can react in time is rather slim.

Of course, this is totally assuming you don't see it coming.

Actually people who kill for the Government rarely ever would do something so stupid as to give their position away with flashbangs and gas. I'd just fire in the direction it came from.

This, I agree with. If it's a large scale assault, they'd use these things for cover. But if it were like three or four people, they wouldn't even bother.

I've seen several people withstand tazer hits. This becomes even more of a problem when you realize how prevelant PCP use is during crimes.

This is true. However, withstanding, and being totally immune are two fairly different things. One can work through being shot by a bullet, however, I wouldn't say they'd be in prime condition.

But they will react quickly, a lot quicker than one person can.

This is subjective. Flashbang people in confusion, and you have time to work with. You make criminals sound as if they're trained Navy Seals.

You'd never find a mugging. Hence why people get mugged, it's an unexpected and unpredictable crime.

Depends where you are, really. Though I agree generally.

Your stretching this. Just how rich and high profile are you that you can afford all this equipment and a "pit crew".

*Coughs.* Rich enough.

Cross referencing names with city records.

You'd have to order anything you bought. The weaponry and equipment you'd need is not sold in stores generally. Even if it was, and there would be very few stores, the cops would just go around to said stores and dealers and ask who they had sold to. Description would be ample evidence.

Most things can be constructed really. Hell, I build things out of boredom. You should've seen the demagnetizing device I made to help my sister steal things from a store. Or my ultra accurate radar deflector for radar guns that can be made fairly easily. The weaponry, or at least anything above tazers, however, is harder to generate, and demand fairly specific items. However, most stores don't demand all SORTS of identification and can be hard to track if you know exactly what you're looking for, and how to spread it out over an extremely large area. Or just order things online. Though that's fairly trackable.

As for forensic science, it's fairly accurate, and very usable. However, it has shown to be extremely inconclusive based on area, range of use, how long things have been there, cross examples and such. But if you're just novicing things, then chances are you'll be caught. So with that, I'll agree.

 

[The Question]

How would you know if things get "hot". Because really one day they'll show up at your door and kill you.



You would be among a scant few buying those chemicals. It would be pretty easy for me to search the database of chemicals sold in the city over the course of a week or so. Your behavior is pretty supicious and someone would enevitably ID you.



Also the records of your bank transactions would be pretty apparent to anyone. If you ever bough supplies that needed to be ordered your need a name for credit informations. Major ditto for a car. Then you'd need to make the stuff, which would probably call attention to your place of residence since those gases let off fumes.



Between comics, school and training I am almost broke at the end of the week and I make 35 thousand a year. So between a car, weapons, training, insurance, ER visits, equipment, various expenses, housing a board (something with a basement apparently), and a whole nother set of expenses to maintain the appearance of a normal life your looking at over six figures. Plus, you'll need a job that affords you scads of free time.



When I boxed I was noticably injured alot. When I played Rugby very seldom did I not have bloody spots on my arms and legs.



You've obviously never fought anyone. Reaction time to fights is EXTREMELY FAST GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. I rarely see people ever get taken out in one hit. Not even a tazer will do that.



Their semi-automatics are far more useful.



Breaking your arm does not constitute a major injury. Getting shot, stabbed, and losing appendages and burns will be your major injuries.



So this supports why it's a waste of time. You could accomplish much more through sane methods of crime prevention where you don't have to lay low.



Really, thats news to me, because as an athlete I spend 100 bucks a week on food.



Now this borders on insulting. I train very hard for my physique and any heavy yet easy to handle material can not be used as a weight. Their is a wide variety of techniques and methods that go into weight training cross training. Just picking up some heavy damn object doesn't cut it.



They will. Forensic science can catch people fairly fast. If you don't understand, I suggest you do some research. The police cast a much wider net than you give them credit for.







If your shot or stabbed deep enough you go into a state called shock. You will in essence piss your pants and pass out from the pain. This would happen to anyone who is not used to getting shot or has not experienced a vast amount of pain. This is also part of the reason cops have back up.



However it is highly unlikely you would survive getting shot. Because if you are acting alone, the criminal is not going to wait for you to page your friend to shoot you again.



You won't have time. Combat medicine needs to be preformed in the field, unless you have some way of dragging your ass back to your cave.





He would be caught, eventually, but he would have a longer shelf life than a Batman. Since he would kill all his witnesses in essence. He lives completely under the radar. He could essentially steal all his weaponry from the people he kills. Mercenaries and Hitmen already exist, and several people in the past have taken revenge on the mafia, so Punishers have come and gone already.



Guns make a huge difference at how effective you are at doing your business.

You know what? I'm done. If you're going to resort to insults and sarcasm, then this just isn't worth it. We've taken things off topic enough as it is.