Gotham Can this REALLY work?

I think the issue is over focusing on what we've seen before and what we haven't seen. We've seen Bruce's childhood or flashes of it in B89, BF, B&R and BB. We've Batman's training in BB and BMOTP. It may not have been extended or gradual but we have seen it before.

Alot of the other stories such as Gordon's early days , and some comic arcs they intend to do such as Court of Owls are pretty fresh are aspects of the story that we've never seen before. Its a series of 24 episodes so there's a way to both show his growth towards being Batman and all the other stuff without jumping the gun. That said though, I think there's more than enough untapped elements to focus on without having Bruce or showing his childhood
as a major storyline. I do think he's a character who could pop up in the show every once and while.

 

I keep forgetting not to reply to you.

 

I think people are being hyperbolic about just how much screentime Bruce has in this series.

So far, per episode, hes been in a scene or two, tops, and they're usually pretty brief, connective tissue stuff, not major plot-connected sequences.

We've seen Bruce as a child in other movies, sure.

Usually during or right before or after his parents' murder, but not much beyond that.

We've been informed for a long time that Bruce's childhood ended when his parents were killed.

We have not really ever seen this altered childhood and his ongoing learning process and acquisition of knowledge explored in an ongoing manner. Potentially even in the comics, though there have, in recent years, been more flashbacks to that time with the HUSH storyline, etc.

I would think it would be a pretty rich period in his life that could be mined for great story and character elements.

I don't remember Bruce training in BATMAN BEGINS. I remember him being told what ninjas do, how to use explosive powders and then he was hit with sticks in a flashback sequence, which I guess could be considered training. Oh, and then he could swordfight pretty well. I suppose that might be training. Or at least an implication that he had some.

But that is not, in any way shape or form, a complete portrayal of the character's "training" for his mission. It is a cliff-notes version of it. And it worked in BEGINS, but let's not pretend it cant be expanded on.

They've made it pretty clear that Bruce's growth will be a key part of the show.

The show, called GOTHAM, is about the major players of Gotham City and their evolution.

 

I know. Im sure it Sucks having to actually defend some of the ridiculous things you say.

 

I have enjoyed watching the evolution of young Bruce so far .

 

This.

 

The argument isn't about whether or not the origin can be expanded upon. You can expand upon the origins of ever hero that's been put to film or television hypothetically. Even then you're still not gonna get a complete portrayal of his training because its a 40 minute show with multiple characters in which Bruce is one of many supporting characters.

The issue I'm raising is whether it needs to be done in this version because we have seen it before. It may not have been extensive, or to the degree some may want, but it has been done before.


They've made it pretty clear that Bruce's growth will be a key part of the show.

The show, called GOTHAM, is about the major players of Gotham City and their evolution.[/QUOTE]

I think the producer's have made it clear that Bruce's growth is an aspect of the show but that doesn't make it the key part of the Gotham. Even with that said, you can still show the growth of the character without having him in every episode. Ultimately how much of the his growth or how much time should be devoted to it is a preference issue. All I'm saying is that I, would like to see them focus more on the aspects we haven't seen before , in other words, not so much Bruce's childhood, more of Gordon's struggle, court of owls, etcs.

 

I think I read somewhere Court of Owls will show up if they make it to season 2 .

 

What they are clearly doing is hedging their bets right now. They are sowing the seeds for Bruce's future self now in case they need to retool the series later. The actor who plays him will age quickly, so by Season 3 they may need to start with him being in High School etc and move more onto his physical training with Alfred. If it went as long as Season 5 then they may need to either recast or begin the Batman journey in earnest.

They seem confident in what they have, but I can see the network wanting "plan B(atman" there in case so they are having that there incase they do end up needing it. Episode 5 clearly was the moment Alfred sees the inate talent Bruce has for being a detective and that he will ultimately be the one who has to take over Wayne Enterprises and "save Gotham", Alfred now sees what will be his calling, not raising a boy but making him a "man" who can change the world...so he resolves to help him from that point on. We could now see a lot less of Bruce going forward now that is established.

If after 17 of 22 it isn't working out so well, I can see Bruce on a fast track and Season 2 or 3 being several years later.

 

Bruce is not one of many supporting characters. Bruce is a key supporting character. The show opened with the murder of The Waynes. There's a reason for that.

Except that we haven't seen what we're seeing now before in live action, and possibly even in animation.

It bugs me when people lump "any kind of training or character growth" into one category. That is not an accurate portrayal of the classic character and mythos.

Where have we really seen anything but Bruce's "ninja training" and the time right before he became Batman?

We haven't. To the best of my knowledge, we have never seen Young Bruce "training" and learning to be a detective, etc.

We really haven't seen that much of Bruce Wayne's childhood in previous adaptions.

And again, from the word go, the show's creators made it clear Bruce wasa KEY part of the show.

The show began with his tragedy.

And yes, you can show the growth of the character without having him in every episode, and maybe they'll reach that point.

 

The show's creators have already said there might well be time lapses as Bruce ages.

I doubt we're going to see a lot less of Bruce. The kid is a really good young actor. They're going to feature him, and that was the plan from the beginning. This show was always, at its core, about James Gordon and Bruce Wayne and the future villains of Gotham.

 

I'm not trying to undermine your argument, but Bruce isn't a supporting character; he's a main character and series regular.

 

Exactly. We haven't really seen much at all, even if you've read every Batman comic ever printed.

There are so many ways they can go with Bruce's "education" and this particular version of Alfred who already has been more permissive than anything I've seen/read.

The anachronistic vision of this show may limit how they handle all of this, but it seems clear that Bruce is quite capable of finding who's best to tutor him, and what he will one day need in terms of technology.

If some Batman fans don't care about Bruce Wayne's evolution, then they're pretty pathetic Batman fans IMHO.

 

It can. I don't think it will.

We know it can because it's happened before. Stories like Robin, Gotham Central, Nightwing, Harley Quinn, Shadow of the Bat, Gotham City Sirens, and more have been told, often with critical and commercial acclaim in the past. We know a Superman show can do quite well without Superman from Smallville's 10 year run, despite much of it being weak. We know it *can* survive, even thrive without Batman.

But this series seems to have made two mistakes. Our 'surrogate Batman' Jim Gordon is largely a cipher, less interesting than Bruce Wayne, with less backstory, less pathos. This doesn't work in a franchise whose themes involve such colorful personalities to have the main guy so... uncolorful. This is correctible, exploring Jim's backstory, which sounds interesting sort of, handles all of that.

But moreover, the larger problem is that Gotham is already home to nearly all of the craziness that Batman deals with. The show has already set up the need for Batman so profoundly, it's no wonder there are already themed vigilantes roaming the streets. In the Nolan films, divisive as they can be at times, it was clear that the Wayne's death helped rally Gotham from descending into chaos in the twenty years between the Wayne's death and Batman's arrival.

The series, imho, should have been a much more grounded crime drama that happened to be set in Gotham City that over time grew into the Gotham that we all know and love. Colorful personalities, yes, Gotham landmarks, yes, the groundswell of theatricality in the DNA of the city (Waynes were murdered in the theatre district, weren't they?), absolutely with Jim Gordon gaining early victories by rallying the city around the Wayne murder before the city begins to fall to the big bads of subsequent seasons, setting the stage for Batman, but more importantly, changing Gordon on a fundamental level from a crusading 'white night' into a tired white haired man turned old in four years time, like a President.

As is, from what I've seen of the first three episodes and heard about later ones, it looks like Gordon going up against a lite version of Batman's rogues and problems. Viper that does the same thing as Venom. That, to me, is not interesting, because then the show becomes a less interesting version of Batman, prompting threads like this one. Can a less interesting version of Batman work? No, no it can't. Can something fundamentally different from a Batman story occurring in Batman's sandbox work? Can there be a great awesome prequel to Batman that explores the city and the world in a way that makes everything awesome but it also entertaining in his own right?

Would this work better with a focus on young Bruce? Possibly. He's one of the best parts of the show, but this show can't really be shifted into a 'Smallville' or the weird Lord of the Flies/Hunger Games version of Smallville that the world of Gotham would turn it into. Right now Bruce is like the backup story in the backs of old comics. He doesn't really directly relate to the main plot, but he's an important feature to complete the audience's entertainment. He honestly could spinoff into his own thing, a road show of some sort, and I'd happily watch that over Jim Gordon doing Batman's job ten years too early.

I don't hate the show, honestly I don't, but I also am losing interest, and I have some clear ideas as to why.

 

I love Gotham so far, Gordon's a little dull, but the supporting cast are
simply magic - particularly Donal Logue (Bullock), Pinkett-Smith (Fish) and
Robin Lord Taylor (Cobblepot), and the kid who plays young Bruce is great ( Sean Pertwee isn't given enough to do, but he's great as well).

Having said that, if it went more than 2 seasons without some strong Batman hints I might start to lose interest.

I don't think the program can run for more than 3 seasons, because while it is Gordon's story, I just don't find Gordon himself interesting enough to carry the whole show. Sure, he's meant to be the ultimate straight arrow, but at the same time he could have a bit more attitude ( a bit like Batman: Year one).

At the same time, if they chuck Batman in there too soon, then it just becomes a Batman show - he's such an iconic and overpowering character that he'd take over everything - which makes me wonder how the dynamic of the show will change when they introduce the pre-Batman Joker !

What I think would work is the old "flash-forward" so we don't see Gordon and Batman's first meeting (Nolan covered that pretty damn well in Batman Begins) but we see them a couple of years after they've met and started collaborating - just as brief interludes, which would make the bulk of the show Gordon's memories of what Gotham was like before he and Batman started cleaning it up.

Any more than that and Batman would simply take over the show.

But, having said all that. If they can consistently deliver episodes as good as the first few, then I'll keep watching - Batman or no.

Just my opinion of course.

 

Yes , it can work, IMO, it already is working, and working well, despite the nay-sayers' criticisms.

 

For all these talk about Bruce's development being shown etc.. are proving the point of why this can't work.


The main character is Jim Gordon and no one here seems to care about how he gets to where he's supposed to be in X years or where he came from.

The entire show is essentially trying to pull the cover over people's eyes who want a Batman show so they tease crap about young Bruce that really shouldn't be explored in the first place. How the heck does anyone really become a detective(let alone the world's greatest)?

Smallville was about a young man figuring out his moral compass. We already know where Batman's moral compass comes from. The ninja/detective stuff was never meant to be explored to this extent cause it doesn't add up to anything but fluff.


The whole point of this show was supposed to be Jim Gordon in a pre-Batman Gotham and he's the character no one cares about. How can a show like that possibly work?

 

I'm having trouble maintaining any interest in this show.

I still don't understand why they simply didn't do a "Gotham Central" type show that still focuses on Jim Gordon, but around the time that Batman first starts his vigilantism. There would be no need to show Batman (or Bruce Wayne), although both could be mentioned on the show. Instead Jim Gordon would primarily be dealing with the various mob bosses while getting mysterious assistance from "The Batman". They could slowly add some of Batman's more colourful rogues, but there would be plenty of decent material with the various mob bosses, Black Mask, Zsasz, etc.

I love Batman's rogues and he probably has the best rogue gallery out of all the superheroes, but I don't really care about Penguin's rise to power, Catwoman's street kid past, Poison Ivy's depressing childhood, etc. I love the villains for who they are - big, bold, colourful, strange and captivating forces of nature. That's what I want to see. Not Selina lurking around, Ivy watering plants and Oswald manipulating mobsters.

TV Line is reporting that episode 7 is pretty impressive, so I'll continue watching until then. And there's always the possibility of a late season "reboot" of sorts similar to SHIELD.

 

I actually agree with you contrary to most people here. So far every episode has this continual message of:

• Gotham is descending into darkness
• A storm is brewing and a gang war and rivers of blood will fill the streets and all that jazz that The Dark Knight Trilogy had.
• Gotham needs a better form of justice.

I feel this is going to be a continuous record on a loop for like 20 years until little Bruce says "I'm Batman". I hope they do 10 year time jumps between seasons.

 

They can never do Gotham Central for the simple fact that people would not stop demanding to see Batman. Every time they would hint at or reference Batman being around the viewers would.just get frustrated and frankly wouldn't give the other characters a fair shot with Batman looming in the background. That's why the showrunners have specifically chose this setup, so that people would have no excuse to complain about "When is Batman going to show up???"

 

Plenty of people seem to care about Gordon.

This show seems to be more interested with where characters are currently than where they came from.

We're essentially seeing where they came from.

Well, perhaps they will show you how. That's sort of the point.

...

This is the problem. That people seem to think all he is...is a ninja and a detective.

There's much, much more to Bruce Wayne's training and learning process than that.

It's still clearly Jim Gordon in a pre-Batman Gotham. And there are plenty of people who do care about Gordon.

A few vocal fans does not a majority make.

 

Excellent post. I feel very similar to you in fact you actually have me a better idea why exactly the show isn't quite clicking for me. I watch it and I'm trying my hardest to like it and get into it, and there are parts that I enjoy but at the end of each episode I feel like there's so much untapped potential. Maybe it's because when I first heard about it I had visions of it like on a network like hbo where you could've really set a awesome tone.. Yes, darker obviously but I think things could've unfolded more naturally there. Things would be more coherent and I could see a gotham where things start off bad because gothams always messed up but truly explore the descent into madness that necessitates a batman like figure..

Here it feels like batman should pretty much already be around. As you said it's like they are already playing in batmans sandbox and batmans only 12. In another version I'd love to see it to where Gordon is so worn down by the descent of gotham and by the time the rogues/freaks start to come out to play you as the viewer need batman because things are just that bad. Idk I have so much I could say but the wasted potential so far is the thing that's most frustrating. It's a fun show at times but as I've said before I really think it's blowing its load way too quickly and unless there's some serious time jumps this won't survive without batman. It wouldn't surprise me at all if at some point they are forced to make this a show with batman in it if they keep going this route.

 

Fair point. But, I think if they made Gordon, Bullock, Montoya and the villains compelling enough, then that would detract from the demands to see Batman.

 

Seem to care? That doesn't sound very exciting.

The fans aren't clamoring for more Barbara/Jim drama or wishing for more about Gordon's military career. There aren't entire threads about people excited about foreshadowing Gordon's leadership role as Commissioner.

Even if I take your vague idea (feel free to tell me what more is) that can't happen in the span of this series.


Bruce Wayne's training is complex and doesn't all take place at the age of 13 to 15 or 13 to 17. That's the point(success and failures)(ups and downs). It should be a slow process that's not seen, only glimpsed and flashbacked to. Not something that can be embodied in a kid. To believe that they can actually show any of us anything but over-glorified teases that will leave them unsatisfied.

 

In a perfect world yes, I would agree that if the characters are compelling enough then people wouldnt be demanding Batman, but lets be brutally honest here. Even if they did Gotham Central with Bryan Cranston playing Gordon and delivering Emmy award winning performances every week that would not stop legions of viewers and fans from saying "yeah Cranston is great as Gordon and all.....but when's Batman going to appear next??" Batman is such a huge character that you cant just tease him and get away with it, people will cry foul. The showrunners know this and I don't think they wanna be bothered with the constant nagging about it.

Its like how in every interview Stephen Amell does all people ask him is " when're you gonna appear in Justice League?" And he gives the same response every time. He must be getting sick of that. People are more interested in him MAYBE appearing in the films rather than whats going on in his own awesome show. The producers behind Gotham are trying to not live in Batman's shadow and give other characters a fair opportunity to shine.