Can we call out European Cowardice?

[Marx]

It's equally applicable to the topic as well.

Fair enough, but let's keep away from making blind assumptions about a poster.

 

[StorminNorman]

It seems to me that Bush was the only one who thought that was a good idea.

When did Bush ever advocate Freedom Fries or French Boycotts?

 

[Marx]

When did Bush ever advocate Freedom Fries or French Boycotts?

I stand corrected. 'Freedom Fries' was initiated by a small group of Republicans on the House Administration Committe and morphed into something more.

 

[StorminNorman]

I frequent a good ol' southern BBQ joint owned by a retired Air Force Pilot that still proudly serves Freedom Fries.

I have no problem with that saying, as the "French" refers to the cut and not the country.

 

[Marx]

I frequent a good ol' southern BBQ joint owned by a retired Air Force Pilot that still proudly serves Freedom Fries.

I have no problem with that saying, as the "French" refers to the cut and not the country.

To this day, I think it is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

 

[StorminNorman]

It could be worse...we could call perfectly good fries "chips".

 

[Addendum]

It's weird that last year, during the entire circus disguised as an election year, some in the media here in the States were critical of people who were supporting Obama without actually finding out where he stood on particular issues or what his plans for certain things were, and they were just as critical regarding Obama for "not presenting a clear plan". The election happens and Obama wins.

Now, a year later, those same people in the media are just as critical of some European nations who haven't decided to support the US in Afghanistan, or they have but the support isn't similar in size to what the US has committed. Perhaps they're waiting for a clear plan of action before deciding to commit? And yet, if they do, that they're somehow cowards?

Oh, Logic and Reason, why did you leave us?

 

[The Overlord]

Russia routinely defies the West.

Duh, because Russia has its own interests, a lot of countries follow their own interests and these interests can conflict. Russia is more of a rival then a enemy persay. Russia is no longer a communist country, its more a Machiavellian realist country, so it will defy the west as long it feels its in their interests.

When you say growing a pair means following America blindly, a lot of countries are going answer "Screw you". You wouldn't want America to just to follow someone else, would you?

Anyway Canada is in Afghanistan and Canada gets jack out of that. Being in Afghanistan hasn't earned Canada anymore respect from other countries, Canada doesn't get more say on the international stage, lots of people in Afghanistan hate the Canadian troops, Afghanistan recently passed a law legalizing rape in marriage and this conflict never seems to end. We at least need a better game plan, because what NATO is trying now, is not working.

 

[Addendum]

Overlord, shhh. You're not supposed to ask for a better game plan. That's what cowards do.

 

[nathaniel]

It seems to me that Bush was the only one who thought that was a good idea. The majority of America thought it was stupid.

As far as radical islam is concerned, are you suggesting that people like that should be left to do as they please, where they please? Your post is a little incoherent, that's why I'm asking.

Bush thought it was a good idea only because you where attacked Iraq was a tidy little scapegoat for your anger that cost thousands of unneeded deaths and the WMD fiasco, the biggest cockup in history, was your ticket in. if it never happend we wouldnt be having this conversation.

RI has been blowing things up for years they should be stopped but its the blatant hypocrisy of the US elevating them to the scourge of the world when the US realises they are not immune to RI loonies where was the push when Europe was being bombed?

 

[Marx]

Bush thought it was a good idea only because you where attacked Iraq was a tidy little scapegoat for your anger that cost thousands of unneeded deaths and the WMD fiasco, the biggest cockup in history, was your ticket in. if it never happend we wouldnt be having this conversation.

I completely agreed with the invasion into Afghanistan. Iraq is an entirely different story and a debate for another thread.

RI has been blowing things up for years they should be stopped but its the blatant hypocrisy of the US elevating them to the scourge of the world when the US realises they are not immune to RI loonies where was the push when Europe was being bombed?

Was Europe bombed on the scale of 9/11? The United States has always been against terrorism, and has supplied resources throughout the world to fight it - prior to 9/11.

 

[VampElvis]

riiiiight, because anyone who is muslim is a terrorist. I guess you think that if you go to sleep tonight praying to jesus, you'll wake up tomorrow praying to allah, simply because some people from the middle east moved to your town.

I fail to see the logic in your line of reasoning.

What I can see, is over the course of a time a voting block solidifying and wresting political control of an area into which they've moved. They don't have to be the majority of the population they just have to vote together in what amounts to a silent coupe.

Once in power, they begin to shift public policy moving it into line with their beliefs. This can mean anything from very little change to severe restrict on previously enjoyed freedoms. Either way since they are organized and vote together their numbers (votes) are greater than anyone elses and suddenly everyone else is shout out of the democratic process.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Duh, because Russia has its own interests, a lot of countries follow their own interests and these interests can conflict. Russia is more of a rival then a enemy persay. Russia is no longer a communist country, its more a Machiavellian realist country, so it will defy the west as long it feels its in their interests.

The problem is that Russia only cares about Russia's interests. Everyone else can go to hell for all Putin cares. It's sorta like how George W. Bush only cared about American conservative interests.

When you say growing a pair means following America blindly, a lot of countries are going answer "Screw you". You wouldn't want America to just to follow someone else, would you?

I find the problem to be that a lot of countries and people complain how America does something on its own and that it should be more multilateral and when it does, they pretty much still want no part of it. It would be like telling you to go do something and when you ask me to help I say no. It's kinda *****ey.

Anyway Canada is in Afghanistan and Canada gets jack out of that. Being in Afghanistan hasn't earned Canada anymore respect from other countries, Canada doesn't get more say on the international stage, lots of people in Afghanistan hate the Canadian troops, Afghanistan recently passed a law legalizing rape in marriage and this conflict never seems to end. We at least need a better game plan, because what NATO is trying now, is not working.

Dude, it's Canada

 

[Zar25]

I
Bull. American foreign policy has helped Al Queda gain power, but it was not what created the evil. Radical islam is the creation of evil men that hijacked a peaceful religion. Al Queda is a creation of Radical islam.

Actually its not bull, its true. Read up on your history. Remember the tape Osama sent out when 9/11 happened and the reasons why they attacked America ? It's about our foreign policy.It's about our influence. They were angry about our positions. Our supporting of Israel, our putting of bases on their soil.

It's what Ron Paul calls blowback. And he was RIGHT. The intelligence reports that came after 9/11 support that. Simply just painting AL-Qaeda as plain evil and not understanding their motivation is intellectually lazy.

We did create AL-Qaeda. It's unfortunate but true.

 

[Zar25]

Duh, because Russia has its own interests, a lot of countries follow their own interests and these interests can conflict. Russia is more of a rival then a enemy persay. Russia is no longer a communist country, its more a Machiavellian realist country, so it will defy the west as long it feels its in their interests.

When you say growing a pair means following America blindly, a lot of countries are going answer "Screw you". You wouldn't want America to just to follow someone else, would you?

Anyway Canada is in Afghanistan and Canada gets jack out of that. Being in Afghanistan hasn't earned Canada anymore respect from other countries, Canada doesn't get more say on the international stage, lots of people in Afghanistan hate the Canadian troops, Afghanistan recently passed a law legalizing rape in marriage and this conflict never seems to end. We at least need a better game plan, because what NATO is trying now, is not working.

Word.

 

[The Major]

And yet...you still won't help him out here. Even more illogical you won't help out in a conflict that impacts Europe.

Europe is helping America in Afghanistan now.

 

[The Major]

When did Bush ever advocate Freedom Fries or French Boycotts?

When did Bush stand against it?

 

[VampElvis]

Actually its not bull, its true. Read up on your history. Remember the tape Osama sent out when 9/11 happened and the reasons why they attacked America ? It's about our foreign policy.It's about our influence. They were angry about our positions. Our supporting of Israel, our putting of bases on their soil.

It's what Ron Paul calls blowback. And he was RIGHT. The intelligence reports that came after 9/11 support that. Simply just painting AL-Qaeda as plain evil and not understanding their motivation is intellectually lazy.

We did create AL-Qaeda. It's unfortunate but true.

If by "we" you mean the west, I'll accept that as partially true. I think what you see in the formation of a group such as Al Qaida is, in part, the culmination of over a hundred years of domination by the west. To ascribe this only to America I believe is a bit disingenuous.

 

[SuBe]

Nope it was all true but the US media and its people (not all) are not in the bussiness of totally blunt assessments of what they did and do in thier history and the backlash of such actions, prahaps no country is in all honesty, but as someone looking in from the outside its easier to see.

America does many great things but they have also done a hell of a lot of bad the 9/11 atrocity was just waiting to happen but as i said you where blissfully unaware anyone would ever dare to attempt it.

And the world looking in can see the hypocrisy of making Radical Islam the most dire threat in the world when YOU are attacked many of you still refuse to see it. idiotic "boycott France" rallys "freedom fries" , making out socialist countries are the worst thing in existence and other petulant pouting in responce to some euro countries not helping out in Iraq clearly show what you really feel about them but you need them now dont you?.

Nope, it's still all opinion, and you are still addressing all of America. Weird.

 

[Zar25]

If by "we" you mean the west, I'll accept that as partially true. I think what you see in the formation of a group such as Al Qaida is, in part, the culmination of over a hundred years of domination by the west. To ascribe this only to America I believe is a bit disingenuous.

I understand where ascribing this only to America might be disingenuous but let's admit that America is a pretty big factor. Our policy decisions whether we like it or not affects a broad spectrum of people especially when its comes to our foreign policy. And the US being a very big influence naturally becomes a target.

My other point is that we should understand where the hate comes from and listen to why those reasons are. It would help us in the fight. - Know thy enemy

 

[hippie_hunter]

I understand where ascribing this only to America might be disingenuous but let's admit that America is a pretty big factor. Our policy decisions whether we like it or not affects a broad spectrum of people especially when its comes to our foreign policy. And the US being a very big influence naturally becomes a target.

My other point is that we should understand where the hate comes from and listen to why those reasons are. It would help us in the fight. - Know thy enemy

Actually the Western European powers deserve just as much blame as we do. They're the ones who pretty much created Israel. They're the ones who turned the Middle East into colonies after World War I. They're the ones who fought the Islamic Empire in the name of religion.

And they behave pretty much the same way we do such as Britain's support of overthrowing governments. Germany's support of Israel. France's invasion of Egypt with Britain. This whole anti-Western backlash among the Islamic world has been building up for hundreds of years and the reason why the United States is the focus is because we are the most prominent Western power today.

 

[BlackLantern]

Actually the Western European powers deserve just as much blame as we do. They're the ones who pretty much created Israel. They're the ones who turned the Middle East into colonies after World War I. They're the ones who fought the Islamic Empire in the name of religion.

And they behave pretty much the same way we do such as Britain's support of overthrowing governments. Germany's support of Israel. France's invasion of Egypt with Britain. This whole anti-Western backlash among the Islamic world has been building up for hundreds of years and the reason why the United States is the focus is because we are the most prominent Western power today.

that and Britney Spears....

 

[The Overlord]

I understand where ascribing this only to America might be disingenuous but let's admit that America is a pretty big factor. Our policy decisions whether we like it or not affects a broad spectrum of people especially when its comes to our foreign policy. And the US being a very big influence naturally becomes a target.

My other point is that we should understand where the hate comes from and listen to why those reasons are. It would help us in the fight. - Know thy enemy

Actually that is a factor, but not the only factor. The US government has screwed around with Latin America, but I don't see Chilians flying planes into buildings.

The Islamic World has been cultural stagnant for some time, with a hatred towards modernity and anything foreign for a while now. Really a lot of the unhappiness in the Middle East has to do with an enforcement of reactionary cultural norms, instead of trying to step into the modern era, many people there simply blame the West for all their problems, whether justified or not.

Its hard to sympathize with the Middle east, when many there insist upon creating a reactionary culture and then try to justify it by relying on a massive victim complex.

 

[Addendum]

I fail to see the logic in your line of reasoning.

What I can see, is over the course of a time a voting block solidifying and wresting political control of an area into which they've moved. They don't have to be the majority of the population they just have to vote together in what amounts to a silent coupe.

Once in power, they begin to shift public policy moving it into line with their beliefs. This can mean anything from very little change to severe restrict on previously enjoyed freedoms. Either way since they are organized and vote together their numbers (votes) are greater than anyone elses and suddenly everyone else is shout out of the democratic process.

And I fail to see any reason in yours. No one is scared of the "Chinatowns" or "Koreatowns" or "Thai Towns" or "Little Saigons" or "Little Italys" or other areas with a strong ethnic population, but if a group of people from the middle east happen to move in or they decide to live in the neighborhood, then they're going to take our fweedoms?

 

[The Overlord]

And I fail to see any reason in yours. No one is scared of the "Chinatowns" or "Koreatowns" or "Thai Towns" or "Little Saigons" or "Little Italys" or other areas with a strong ethnic population, but if a group of people from the middle east happen to move in or they decide to live in the neighborhood, then they're going to take our fweedoms?

The problem is the Muslim populations in Europe are ghettoized and often radicalized and there is often a resistance to integration by Mulsim communities into European societies.

What results is massive tensions between Europeans and Muslim immigrants, we have Arab riots in France a few years ago, the death of Theo van Gogh in Holland, Anti Western protests by Muslims in the UK, The anti Denmark protests in 2006: all these things are leading to growing tensions and are testing the limits of how tolerant European socities can be.