College degree not worth cost?

[terry78]

Sallie Mae is on my ass like the Sopranos.

 

[Spider-Who?]

It's pretty impressive that you make that much with an art degree.

Good employer, good field, a lot of skills. Plus, careers in art aren't what they used to be.

 

[zanos]

As a bit of an aimless college student, reading all of this gives me conflicting feelings of hope and despair.

If you're aimless and attending college, especially a costly one, then there is only despair for you.

 

[Thundercrack85]

To a degree. But having a degree (not to overuse that word) is better than not having one. Pretty soon you'll need a bachelor's just to work at any respectable burger joint.

 

[Anita18]

If you're in college not having a clue of what you want to do and are spending your days getting drunk and/or high, quit school, get a job and get drunk/high while not spending out the nose for classes you aren't taking.

And it's not the degree, nor the school that gives the degree, it's all about the person who has it. Just because someone has a piece of paper doesn't entitle them to anything. In this day and age, you have to prove you have something to contribute. I don't think many unis (especially large ones) gets this across to their graduates.

But yes, I think the students who'd gone through childhood thinking that a college degree (or more) was going to be their fast track to the big bucks are getting a rude awakening. And it's not always their fault either, but perhaps their parents' faults. I still have relatives who are elated their kids are going to law school, and law school is like, the stupidest idea right now because all these firms are laying off senior partners. They certainly aren't hiring greenhorns!

 

[Thundercrack85]

The minute you get into high school, hell, before you get into high school, they tell you that your goal in life is college. In fact, they prepare you for little else. They drill that into you. So it's hardly a surprise that people go to college and expect it to pay off.

And even if you get the damn thing, by the time you do, you're worse than broke, and you're not guaranteed any position.

But the good news is, now that you're in debt, and probably living with your parents, your diploma might give you a leg up over the other thousands clamoring for an unfulfilling, low paying, degrading job. At least until you inevitably get replaced by a robot or have your job outsourced.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I honestly think it depends on the degree.

The subject you pic and why, the uni/college you choose, and even the type of degree.

I mean if you have something you want to 'be', like a lawyer or a doctor or a teacher - there are certain qualifications you need. And degrees in certain subjects will definitely contribute towards achieving you're dream.

But if you go and do History or English just because you are good at or enjoy those subjects and you want a degree, not because you want to be a historian or an english teacher - then I don't think you should expect it to give you much of an advantage in the job market.

Because you haven't really trained to do anything specific. You're time at university/college is just an indicator of your intelligence, but not your practical capabilities or skills.

That's why I chose to go to a uni that wasn't as prestigious or academic, despite being a pretty academic student.

I did a course in Journalism, that actually felt like training to be a journalist. We did a module on law for journalists. A little bit of the basics of politics. Journalistic ethics and the rules of the pcc. Online journalism (and a little html), short hand, PR, Photography, Magazine, Print, TV, Radio - all involving actual projects, working with real radio and tv studios, editing equipment, cameras, photographers for photoshoots, models - and not just imagining what an interview is like, but constantly going out and doing them. Vox pops especially frequently because it just gets you into the confident space of asking random strangers to talk to you when you've got a camera in their face.

Of course we did some academic media theory stuff too, and completed a dissertation.

But if I'd gone for the one my teachers kept telling me too, that required better grades to get in and was well known and an old uni... I would have just sat there writing about media theory the whole time and learned nothing about actually being a journalist.

I definitely feel like THAT wouldn't have been worth the money.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I did a course in Journalism, that actually felt like training to be a journalist. We did a module on law for journalists. A little bit of the basics of politics. Journalistic ethics and the rules of the pcc. Online journalism (and a little html), short hand, PR, Photography, Magazine, Print, TV, Radio - all involving actual projects, working with real radio and tv studios, editing equipment, cameras, photographers for photoshoots, models - and not just imagining what an interview is like, but constantly going out and doing them. Vox pops especially frequently because it just gets you into the confident space of asking random strangers to talk to you when you've got a camera in their face.

Of course we did some academic media theory stuff too, and completed a dissertation.

But if I'd gone for the one my teachers kept telling me too, that required better grades to get in and was well known and an old uni... I would have just sat there writing about media theory the whole time and learned nothing about actually being a journalist.

I definitely feel like THAT wouldn't have been worth the money.

As a fellow J-schooler, I want to share a story with you:

One of my former bosses/editors was the city hall beat reporter, and the newspaper we worked on (yes, they were newspapers back in my day) had a direct competitor. The competitor's reporter and he were friends though, though the other reporter came from more of a trade school background of journalism.

During a council meeting, one of the city councillors made a remark that a policy they were debating had a "Bentham-like quality to it."

There was a silence, and in the middle of the meeting (it was a small room) the councillor turned to the competitor reporter and asked, "You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?"

The competitor reporter chuckled, and shook his head.

The councillor then said, "That's why your copy sucks."

 

[The Guard]

I've got to agree that high schools and society in general don't prepare students for the realities of "careers".

I went to a Comprehensive high school, where they funneled you into trade or college prep by the time you were a freshman. You either learned a skill, or you learned pre-college stuff.

You get out of school what you put into it, and what you want to get out of it. It shouldn't be some series of events you go through and then just end up with a piece of paper. I went to school to learn about my field, and I got a Criminology degree because I wanted to be a police officer at the time, and because that is what interested me the most out of all the degrees and fields I could have explored, and because I felt the related sociology and psychology classes gave me the best potential to learn about our society and people in general. That's what school should be for, first and foremost in my mind, to learn. College, to me, shouldn't be about getting degrees so you can hopefully get jobs. It's a pretty stupid system we have in most places, I think. With the exception of stuff like law, medicine, and certain sciences and engineering, you're not really weeding out or identifying the people who can or can't do particular future jobs, since most college coursework doesn't really truly prepare you for the specifics of any one job. It's frustrating to realize "Well, this degree prepared me for this one field, but not 95% of others".

Overall though, it's all about the person, and the opportunities they make for themselves, and often some luck. I hear people ***** about their student loan debt and I just kind of shake my head. Oh, you went to a prestigious school in your incredibly common field just because you could? Enjoy your hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and trying to find a job!

I went to a state college. I stayed at home with my parents for two and a half years after high school, worked my butt off, paid my own tuition with the exception of some minor local scholarship money, and then went to the main university, and stayed with a roommate to keep my costs down. As a result, I only had $5,000 in student loans when I came out of school. On the flip side, you've got people that went to a big university or a party school, paid out the nose for a dorm and food, fiddled around with what they wanted to study, and come out of school with a hundred thousand in debt or more, and don't understand why.

It's definitely essential to be realistic and informed before going to college. Yes, the big schools can open doors, but most of the time that's if you're already the best of the best, or lucky, or know people. If you're going to go to law school, if you're going to go to med school, or if you're going to do anything that requires a Master's degree or grad school, or anything in the arts, you had damn well better think about how much education and money and hard work is involved just to make it, and the fact that you are not guaranteed a lucrative career. I see this from theatre and music majors often...they major in something that it's already nigh impossible to make it in, and they don't even possess the talent to do it. But they're gonna make it big in Hollywood, or on Broadway. Everyone wants to be rich. Maybe I'm naiive, but I feel like it used to be that everyone wanted to have enough to live comfortably.

I have a friend in her second year of creative writing grad school who will come out $100,000 more in debt. And she's struggled to get through the classes and isn't even sure she wants to do it, wasn't sure after her first year. What the hell was she thinking?

I have a friend who just came out of law school who will have $150,000 in debt. And he knows there's not really any job potential right now. What the hell was he thinking?

And god knows how many people come out of ten years of med school with five times that in debt and no job prospects at all.

And these are intelligent, reasonable people. It boggles the mind.

I do tend to see trade skills as more lucrative in the short term, and even sometimes in the long term. I know more than a few people who struggled to get through high school, work at body shops or factories, and are making a ton of money. I couldn't do that work myself. It's not that its degrading...I just don't like the fields. I agree though that the college degree is becoming the high school diploma. Most specific entry level positions want you to have a related degree in that field. And they can demand that, because competition for jobs is so high. And most chances at promotion will be better for you if you possess a Master's or something along those lines, which is why so many go back to school.

Your major, in most cases, won't be your life. Learning will be, though.

 

[katie_girl09]

The only degrees that you are guaranteed in making some decent money are in Biology, Applied Sciences (engineering, medical), Chemistry, Physics, Business, Education, Computer Science, & Information systems. Fine arts, psychology, literature, communication...good luck.

Gosh. I didn't know that there were majors that GUARANTEED you a job. And engineering is one of them? Wow. I'll go tell 3 of my unemployed-in-their-field engineering major friends!

Don't listen to advice like that. The fact is that no degree is going to guarantee you a well-paying job. And no degree bars you from getting one either. For this reason, you are better off studying something that you have an interest in. Even if you never become a zillionaire you will still be better off than a lot of other people.

Of course, everybody here is mainly talking about ROI from the first 5 years of your life after graduation. And yes, if you only measure that, then any degree other than applied sciences, law, engineering or business is going to look pretty bad, because you'll likely end up with a job that somebody without a degree could likely get.

But look past those 5 years. A degree (in virtually anything) will increase your likelihood of promotion. Of becoming a manager or higher. Of being able to not just do your day-to-day work, but to analyze problems, identify improvements and communicate them to your benefit. Of being able to switch out of one career path to another when some industries go bad and others take their place. I think everybody here has to realize your major isn't your life.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm one of the older posters here, by my estimation, and I can remember being fresh out of university, when the next 2-4 years of your life seem to be all that there is, and the frustration of not being able to achieve your entire life's work by the time you're 26 can be crippling at times.

Any form of higher education will benefit you in time, if you allow it to. Listen to this elder statesman.

 

[terry78]

University? Statesman? Quit talking crazy Canadian talk!

 

[katie_girl09]

^We're taking over, eh?

 

[terry78]

When we no longer desire you for comedic roles in tv and film, your hoser asses are outta here.

 

[katie_girl09]

Totally what I'm aiming for, I'm uncertain about wanting to be tenured, being in one place for so long would bore me to death. The goal has always been to try for the whole dream of being a writer/novelist. But, teaching English Lit abroad to make ends meet while I work on that goal.

I have an uncle who is an English professor. He loves his job more than anyone I've ever met. Good luck with it.

But keep in mind that adjuncts aren't paid too well. That's why most people work toward tenure.

 

[Pink Ranger]

University? Statesman? Quit talking crazy Canadian talk!

I matriculated from Grade 13 after writing the provincial exams, while sitting on a chesterfield eating Coffee Crisp chocolate bars and drinking pop that was delivered by skidoo. t:

PS: In my secondary school football team, I played the slotback position. My specialty was running the 3rd down gamble. One time I ran a kick for the entire 110 yards. t:t:

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

As a bit of an aimless college student, reading all of this gives me conflicting feelings of hope and despair.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Gosh. I didn't know that there were majors that GUARANTEED you a job. And engineering is one of them? Wow. I'll go tell 3 of my unemployed-in-their-field engineering major friends!

Don't listen to advice like that. The fact is that no degree is going to guarantee you a well-paying job. And no degree bars you from getting one either. For this reason, you are better off studying something that you have an interest in. Even if you never become a zillionaire you will still be better off than a lot of other people.

You obviously will have some 'interest' in whatever field you decide to go into...those kind of vague words of advice "do what you like' were always misleading and confusing. I got fed that crap when I was in high school and even in college and I regret paying attention to it.

My first passion is anthropology...I would love to be paid to dig up ancient ruins, live months on a field expedition to god knows where; learn ancient languages and read ancient texts. When I actually got to college, I tested this idea a little bit and after talking to professors and hearing from them how difficult it was to land a job; how you have to work for a university, and the pay out is rather dismal, even with a PhD, I realized the hard reality that doing only 'what interests you' is actually a big waste of time.

I learned more about life from the fictional Tony Montana Cuban gangster than I did from any counselor. The truth is you need money. Making good money will make you happier and it will make your significant other happier (even if they won't ever admit it). It can help your family when they are in a bind. Furthermore, when you make a good amount, you will find time to do what you like.

I'm not making millions, but I make enough to support myself, my family, my extended family, and have solid plans to save for retirement. With that comfort, I can pursue other hobbies of mine, like anthropology, travelling, photography, etc.

I don't care how superficial it sounds, making decent money should be the key of any great career. In that case, you shouldn't beat around the bush, go to the careers that make money: IT, Medical, Engineering, Business/Finance. You won't regret it, guaranteed.

 

[Anubis]

I say screw college and just go buy some lotto tickets.

 

[katie_girl09]

You obviously will have some 'interest' in whatever field you decide to go into...those kind of vague words of advice "do what you like' were always misleading and confusing. I got fed that crap when I was in high school and even in college and I regret paying attention to it.

What on earth is confusing about telling someone to study what they have an interest in?

My first passion is anthropology...I would love to be paid to dig up ancient ruins, live months on a field expedition to god knows where; learn ancient languages and read ancient texts. When I actually got to college, I tested this idea a little bit and after talking to professors and hearing from them how difficult it was to land a job; how you have to work for a university, and the pay out is rather dismal, even with a PhD, I realized the hard reality that doing only 'what interests you' is actually a big waste of time.

All that your experience proves is that anthropology is not a career for YOU. If you truly loved anthropology and wanted to make a career out of it, you would have done so regardless of the "dismal pay out" (40k-60k is dismal to you?). You must be extremely dedicated to a field to be an academic.
You made a decision. Obviously, you decided that making good money was more important than pursuing your love of anthropology. And that's just fine. For you. But not everyone cares about making lots of money. We don't all need to make 80k+ to be happy.

I learned more about life from the fictional Tony Montana Cuban gangster than I did from any counselor. The truth is you need money.

I don't think anyone ever said that you didn't...

Making good money will make you happier and it will make your significant other happier (even if they won't ever admit it)...

Okay, seriously? And you were saying that I was misleading people by saying that they should do what they love? Seriously?!
Do you honestly believe that making good money is going to make you happy? Tell that to the i-bankers and corporate lawyers and such who make tons of money but work 80+ hour weeks and never see their friends or families. How happy are they going to be if they make tons of money but never have time to enjoy it with the people they care about?
Naturally that isn't the case for everyone making a lot of money. I am just pointing out how misleading it is to say that making 350k is necessarily going to make you any happier than someone making 45k.

...Furthermore, when you make a good amount, you will find time to do what you like.

Another misleading piece of advice. Usually, the more money you make the more time-consuming and stressful your job is going to be.

...I don't care how superficial it sounds, making decent money should be the key of any great career. In that case, you shouldn't beat around the bush, go to the careers that make money: IT, Medical, Engineering, Business/Finance. You won't regret it, guaranteed.

Again with the engineering? I don't get it. Why do people insist on clinging to this idea that engineering is some kind of golden ticket to success and lots of money? And I'm honestly not knocking the degree at all. I've just seen enough out of work would-be engineers to know that it isn't.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

What on earth is confusing about telling someone to study what they have an interest in?

Because (like me) having an interest in something doesn't necessarily mean you can make a career out of it that pays well.

All that your experience proves is that anthropology is not a career for YOU. If you truly loved anthropology and wanted to make a career out of it, you would have done so regardless of the "dismal pay out" (40k-60k is dismal to you?). Y

I think when I was looking into it, the base salary was 20K and in rare instances, up to 75K...so yeah..that's not enough to support my family on my own.

You must be extremely dedicated to a field to be an academic.

I don't live in extremes, I'm more a moderate person. The only thing I care for in the extreme, is the family. What's best for them is my goal. If it means, making a future where I make more money and sacrifice a career in something I loved, then so be it. One has to take account EVERYTHING when choosing a career, and put aside any selfish interest.

But not everyone cares about making lots of money. We don't all need to make 80k+ to be happy.

Depends what your work load is. If I offered you a stable job making 80K/year, with possibility of making over 100K in the years to follow, to sit at a computer desk for 40hrs a week vs making 25K doing what you love with the same amount of hours..would you put aside your passion for the weekends for the higher pay? IMO, I would take the higher pay.

Okay, seriously? And you were saying that I was misleading people by saying that they should do what they love? Seriously?!
Do you honestly believe that making good money is going to make you happy?

Yes!

Tell that to the i-bankers and corporate lawyers and such who make tons of money but work 80+ hour weeks and never see their friends or families. How happy are they going to be if they make tons of money but never have time to enjoy it with the people they care about?
Naturally that isn't the case for everyone making a lot of money.

Exactly. It's not the case for the MAJORITY. What you're talking about are the extreme people who put their career above everything else.

I am just pointing out how misleading it is to say that making 350k is necessarily going to make you any happier than someone making 45k.

My personal philosophy is that you reach as high as you can and never aim low. That person who takes the 45K can live a happy life, but why limit your earning capability? Make more, save more, do more.

Another misleading piece of advice. Usually, the more money you make the more time-consuming and stressful your job is going to be.

Money will take that stress away, don't worry.

Again with the engineering? I don't get it. Why do people insist on clinging to this idea that engineering is some kind of golden ticket to success and lots of money? And I'm honestly not knocking the degree at all. I've just seen enough out of work would-be engineers to know that it isn't.

Not sure about your friends; but I have uncles, cousins, friends who are in different types of engineering; Industrial, civil, electrical, and they all have great careers. I had 30K in student loans, and in two years I should be done paying it off. If i was getting paid 45K, I'd still be paying that off for another 10 years. Last year, we all took a 3 week vacation to go on a road trip of a lifetime, just guys. It was great.

You probably still don't agree on anything, but I'm talking from personal perspective. I've never heard of someone getting a degree in the fields I mentioned and regretting that decision, not once. You'll always find time for the things you are passionate about.

 

[Anita18]

Do you honestly believe that making good money is going to make you happy? Tell that to the i-bankers and corporate lawyers and such who make tons of money but work 80+ hour weeks and never see their friends or families. How happy are they going to be if they make tons of money but never have time to enjoy it with the people they care about?

More like 100+ hour weeks well into their 40s.

I know a bigshot corporate lawyer (a partner in her firm) in that situation. She can't even take a vacation because of her work. No husband, no kids. The only thing she can do with her money is lease expensive cars and eat at expensive restaurants. And of course, buy a swanky expensive apartment she barely even sleeps in.

Of course, it's her choice for accepting that responsibility, but yes, often, hard work (or stressful work) often precludes lots of money. I have a fairly low-paying job for my qualifications (oh, academic research) but it gives me lots of flexibility and I love the people I work with. I wouldn't trade that for a job that paid me twice as much.

Again with the engineering? I don't get it. Why do people insist on clinging to this idea that engineering is some kind of golden ticket to success and lots of money? And I'm honestly not knocking the degree at all. I've just seen enough out of work would-be engineers to know that it isn't.

I have a friend from high school who majored in EE from Stanford and went back to get a PhD because she couldn't find a job. Or rather, find a job that she liked. She's extremely picky. I mean, she lives in Silicon Valley and really should have had no problem finding a job if she were truly desperate. If she were willing to travel, her options would be even more open. But for many, relocation is not an option for numerous reasons.

And there are people who can't be happy if they aren't fulfilled by their jobs. My fiance is one of them - he had a pretty cushy job as a software programmer at a successful startup, and quit because he hated the frat-boy culture. He has a very low tolerance for social situations he doesn't love.

 

[terry78]

^Yeah, I am with your fiance on that. I hate those places where they're like constantly acting like they're fresh out of college.

 

[PyroChamber]

^Yeah, I am with your fiance on that. I hate those places where they're like constantly acting like they're fresh out of college.

Or in some cases, fresh out of high school.

 

[nekha123]

There have been some articles written recently asking if a college degree was worth the money? I find it curious these articles were all written by individuals who had college degrees. I will caution anyone who takes out 100k in student loans to study English Literature at Harvard to be mindful of the Return on Investment, but do you think a college degree is worth the rising cost of tuition?

It depends on how you take the course, but yes, everything is inflated. So nothing have a right price tag and university fee is not an exception. But still, if you make an effort to learn everything possible in university, it's really a worthy shot. More than anything, you'll get an academic experience. This would mean a lot when you are working.