Comics Confused about Venom origin.

[Spider-Bat]

Okay I've always heard that the comics version was like the movie and cartoon, that when he's in the bell tower he rips off the suit and it drips onto Eddie who's praying in the church, but I just read the bell tower part in the Birth of Venom tpb, and the suit comes off and then pulls an unconcious Peter from the tower where he's passed out from the noise of the bells, his nose bleeding and all, and then the Symbiote seems to turn to dust or vanish or something,

but its not in the tower to fall onto Brock and then that's it, it doesn't show it going onto Eddie, it just jumps to the next part where Eddie is already Venom in that one scene where he's in his apartment and they don't show him yet and then the next part of him as Venom in Pete and Mj's apartment and he scares her when he is sitting in the dark.

I always heard it described more like the cartoon and movie though. Did I miss something, the tpb seems to have every tid bit concerning Venom, is it different after all or did they leave that part out?

 

[Venom_uk]

From ASM#300

Hope that clears some stuff up for you dude.

 

[WolfCypher]

Did those scans come directly from the tpb or is your scanner reaaly, really precise and clear or both?

Anyway, Brock finding the symbiote and becoming Venom happened "behind the scenes". Its generally "known" that Brock arrived in the chruch right after Peter got rid of the costume. Other than that, see V_UK's post.

 

[Spider-Bat]

Oh, okay, that should be in the tpb, I just didn't get to it yet. that's cool. I understand it's something revealed later, I just didn't see that when I skipped ahead, I'll just wait till I get to it. Thankyou.

But, I still like it better in the movie and cartoon when he has to rip the suit off rather than it just coming off, it was more dramatic in the film.

 

[fallenAngel]

I was gonna make another thread about this, but I guess I can combine my question here.

Where did the whole Evil symbiote Agression thing come from. I was reading the old Symbiote costume comics and even though the Symbiote was unhinged and a bit crazy, there was never evil agressive, vengefull spider man. Did I miss something, or did this come in later, most notably with the TAS.

 

[DACrowe]

It came to play (wisely so) in TAS. A good note the comics missed. Raimi used that as well as Brock being a rival at the Bugle of Parker and Spidey/Peter (TAS/movie respectively) being directly responsible for uncovering Brock as a fraud and ruining him.

It's done much better in TAS than the comics.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I was gonna make another thread about this, but I guess I can combine my question here.

Where did the whole Evil symbiote Agression thing come from. I was reading the old Symbiote costume comics and even though the Symbiote was unhinged and a bit crazy, there was never evil agressive, vengefull spider man. Did I miss something, or did this come in later, most notably with the TAS.

There's a lot of thought on that. The symbiote was originally on battleword (secret wars) because it was a rebel. Originally the lifeforms were parasites not symbiotes which just fed. The Venom lifeform wanted to join with its host reasoning that that was the best way to progress so it was exiled. Originally it had no feelings so when it joined with Peter it was as if it had no personality and that's why Peter didn't know what it was. Later it "fell in love" (for lack of a better term) with Peter and attempted to join, which freaked Peter out so he used the bells to get rid of it. The problem was the bells were going to kill Peter and the symbiote saved his life (an act of compassion showing it had learned emotions). After Peter's rejection it was like a lover betrayed and began to look for vengence merging with brock and becoming venom. It didn't amplify Brock's hatred it merely merged his hatred with its own, but in the end its greatest desire was still to merge back with Pete and it tried to reject Brock when offered. When it found out it couldn't and that it was a trick it only made it hate Pete more.

If you want to read a good story (though not cannon) check out reign especially issue 4. The symbiote makes some pretty good points about what happened to it and why it's full of hate now.

 

[fallenAngel]

There's a lot of thought on that. The symbiote was originally on battleword (secret wars) because it was a rebel. Originally the lifeforms were parasites not symbiotes which just fed. The Venom lifeform wanted to join with its host reasoning that that was the best way to progress so it was exiled. Originally it had no feelings so when it joined with Peter it was as if it had no personality and that's why Peter didn't know what it was. Later it "fell in love" (for lack of a better term) with Peter and attempted to join, which freaked Peter out so he used the bells to get rid of it. The problem was the bells were going to kill Peter and the symbiote saved his life (an act of compassion showing it had learned emotions). After Peter's rejection it was like a lover betrayed and began to look for vengence merging with brock and becoming venom. It didn't amplify Brock's hatred it merely merged his hatred with its own, but in the end its greatest desire was still to merge back with Pete and it tried to reject Brock when offered. When it found out it couldn't and that it was a trick it only made it hate Pete more.

If you want to read a good story (though not cannon) check out reign especially issue 4. The symbiote makes some pretty good points about what happened to it and why it's full of hate now.

Yeah I got most of that from the comics. It was actually very interesting and made the Symbiote more of a character.

has it just been "simplified" with every retelling of the story. Since now whenever Peter gets it, it's already evil and hate filled.

Such as in the movie and especially the TAS, it sort of turns peter into a different person. Where as in the original comic it was more or less just a creepy parasite at first, till it learned emotion and then became insane.

 

[fallenAngel]

It came to play (wisely so) in TAS. A good note the comics missed. Raimi used that as well as Brock being a rival at the Bugle of Parker and Spidey/Peter (TAS/movie respectively) being directly responsible for uncovering Brock as a fraud and ruining him.

It's done much better in TAS than the comics.

Yeah I agree, the TAS is probably the best telling I have seen of the story. The comics were interesting, but it felt like they were making it up as they went too much.

and example being Brock explains how he became Venom via flashback many issues later.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Well, of course, the cartoon got to reap the benefit of the comics' stumblings by buildin' on the story they already told.

 

[Spider-Bat]

I just read that part in the tpb when Brock tells his story and you see the flash back. I see how it was lurking in the church and found Eddie, but didn't fall on him like in the cartoon and movie.

I must say I like the cartoon and movie versions better. I liked how they built on what was already there. I always thought it was some great story with all those elements already there, but after reading it myself I see how they did more with it in the animated series.

I thought it looked cool the way Eddie, in the cartoon, was all tied up in webbing in the church under the bell tower and how the symbiote dropped on him, and he couldn't escape it since he was trapped by Spidey's webbing. It was more dramatic, and then how he busts out of the webbing and he is Venom. I think it would've been cool to fully see him as Venom bust out of the webbing but, it was also cool that they waited to reveal him, like in the comic book.

It's funny how a legend builds around a story like this and then when you finally get to read it you're like oh, that wasn't quite what I heard and thought it would be, but don't get me wrong, I liked the original story, if not for that we wouldn't have the cartoon to build upon it.

It's all cool, but yeah the comic's story was cool, but I do like the cartoon version better. I really like the scene in the movie when he's trying to rip the suit off in the bell tower, dramatic, and very cool. I have the Venom saga on DVD, can't wait to get Spider-man 3 on DVD!!!

Too bad in the movie you couldn't see Eddie messing with Pete and terrorizing MJ, like in the comics and cartoon, but they had enough of that with Harry, but Venom was still done quite well in the film, and I respect Sam Raimi for respecting the fans and giving us Venom in the movie, at first he was going to use the Vulture but then that story line fell through, Ben Kingsley would have played him, but then they talked him into Venom and he knew the fans wanted to see him in the next movie, so he went to 'Venom school', he didn't knwo much about him, but after researching him he liked him. So that's cool.

 

[EnvyEquatesHate]

There's a lot of thought on that. The symbiote was originally on battleword (secret wars) because it was a rebel. Originally the lifeforms were parasites not symbiotes which just fed. The Venom lifeform wanted to join with its host reasoning that that was the best way to progress so it was exiled. Originally it had no feelings so when it joined with Peter it was as if it had no personality and that's why Peter didn't know what it was. Later it "fell in love" (for lack of a better term) with Peter and attempted to join, which freaked Peter out so he used the bells to get rid of it. The problem was the bells were going to kill Peter and the symbiote saved his life (an act of compassion showing it had learned emotions). After Peter's rejection it was like a lover betrayed and began to look for vengence merging with brock and becoming venom. It didn't amplify Brock's hatred it merely merged his hatred with its own, but in the end its greatest desire was still to merge back with Pete and it tried to reject Brock when offered. When it found out it couldn't and that it was a trick it only made it hate Pete more.

If you want to read a good story (though not cannon) check out reign especially issue 4. The symbiote makes some pretty good points about what happened to it and why it's full of hate now.

All of that is Ret-Conned information that came about during the Howard Mackie era and then exclaimed on with the whole Humberto Ramos Hunger Arc. Bleah.

 

[moraldeficiency]

All of that is Ret-Conned information that came about during the Howard Mackie era and then exclaimed on with the whole Humberto Ramos Hunger Arc. Bleah.

Yes, and?

 

[EnvyEquatesHate]

Yes, and?

and it's stupid

 

[moraldeficiency]

and it's stupid

Good post...

 

[EnvyEquatesHate]

Good post...

I've explained hundreds of times. It wasn't what was originally intended for the symbiote. So it's all ret conned BS. *shrugs*

 

[Dangerous]

Just buy the Birth of Venom TPB!

 

[dodus]

All of that is Ret-Conned information that came about during the Howard Mackie era and then exclaimed on with the whole Humberto Ramos Hunger Arc. Bleah.

Retconned in the sense that Eddie Brock explains it in ASM#300, sure. But the learning emotions and loving Peter stuff was established in the issue he gets rid of the suit in the bell tower. I could see if you were griping about the adrenaline or cancer or chocolate shi*t that came later, but everything moraldeficiency wrote has been a part of Venom since the start.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Retconned in the sense that Eddie Brock explains it in ASM#300, sure. But the learning emotions and loving Peter stuff was established in the issue he gets rid of the suit in the bell tower. I could see if you were griping about the adrenaline or cancer or chocolate shi*t that came later, but everything moraldeficiency wrote has been a part of Venom since the start.

Thank you for noticing that. I considered explaining but it seemed pointless.